USB on M1 Macs isn't actually 10Gb/s? (Also definitely not USB4)

[mick2]

The bridge chip. The Asmedia chip.

But @Fomalhaut is claiming his T5 runs at 10Gb/s, whereas mine doesn't. Are you suggesting that Samsung changed the bridge chip in their T5s at some point?

 

[white7561]

But @Fomalhaut is claiming his T5 runs at 10Gb/s, whereas mine doesn't. Are you suggesting that Samsung changed the bridge chip in their T5s at some point?

I don't think so. Usually they don't change those. But it's probably the firmware. Which is usually upgradeable. . my Strix Arion with ASM2362 has been upgraded last year.

 

[mick2]

I don't think so. Usually they don't change those. But it's probably the firmware. Which is usually upgradeable. . my Strix Arion with ASM2362 has been upgraded last year.

So we'd need to know what f/w @Fomalhaut has on his T5. I'm running the latest from Samsung, but my T5 has only run at 5gb/s on my Macs since I've had it, across several f/w versions.

Fwiw I don't think it's a f/w issue; I think that Apple have a quirks plist (or equivalent) in place that for some reason downgrades certain USB chipsets to 5gb/s operation, and that they just don't publicise or acknowledge the fact.

It would be good if Fomalhaut gets back with more details of his setup and confirmation of his 10Gb/s.

 

[white7561]

So we'd need to know what f/w @Fomalhaut has on his T5. I'm running the latest from Samsung, but my T5 has only run at 5gb/s on my Macs since I've had it, across several f/w versions.

Fwiw I don't think it's a f/w issue; I think that Apple have a quirks plist (or equivalent) in place that for some reason downgrades certain USB chipsets to 5gb/s operation, and that they just don't publicise or acknowledge the fact.

It would be good if Fomalhaut gets back with more details of his setup and confirmation of his 10Gb/s.

Yeah but if it's a quirk settings. Shouldn't all T5 connects at 5gb/s? . Unless it is using a different or upgraded bridge chip inside the T5.

 

[mick2]

Yeah but if it's a quirk settings. Shouldn't all T5 connects at 5gb/s? . Unless it is using a different or upgraded bridge chip inside the T5.

Yes, this is correct. I'm predicting that when other T5 Mac users actually look at the connection speed in System Report their T5s will all be running at 5Gb/s. If not, my Quirks theory is wrong and the issue is more subtle than we think...!

 

[white7561]

Yes, this is correct. I'm predicting that when other T5 Mac users actually look at the connection speed in System Report their T5s will all be running at 5Gb/s. If not, my Quirks theory is wrong and the issue is more subtle than we think...!

Yep if there are others with 10gbps link speed. That means it's either firmware differences or just a different chip altogether.

 

[anonymous888]

Yes, this is correct. I'm predicting that when other T5 Mac users actually look at the connection speed in System Report their T5s will all be running at 5Gb/s. If not, my Quirks theory is wrong and the issue is more subtle than we think...!

I posted before. My NVME Enclosure is connected at 10GBPS and I get around ~720MBps write.
When I use a 5GBPS cable I only get ~320MBps.
My SSD is WD SN750.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Any chance you could test and confirm 100%? As none of this is documented/acknowledged by Apple, we're somewhat groping around in the dark trying to nail the issue, so hardware / os details and confirmation via testing are especially useful.

Here it is on my MBP16. I'm travelling at the moment so can't test on the M1 Mini, but I'm pretty sure it connects at 10Gbs. I may have posted images on an earlier post in this thread; let me check!

[Edit: It's entirely possible that I'm wrong about the T5 connecting at 10Gbps directly on the M1 Mini, because I often use it via a TB3 hub..which does connect at 10Gbps. The Samsung T7 definitely connects directly at 10Gbps.

I can't recall feeling disappointed by the T5's speed as I was with another USB 3.1Gen2 enclosure than only connects directly at 5Gbps on the M1 Mini.

Unfortunately, I can't check this for another 2 months... ]

 

[mick2]

Here it is on my MBP16. I'm travelling at the moment so can't test on the M1 Mini, but I'm pretty sure it connects at 10Gbs. I may have posted images on an earlier post in this thread; let me check!

Thanks for that - very helpful. What year is your MBP16 from?

I can't recall feeling disappointed by the T5's speed as I was with another USB 3.1Gen2 enclosure than only connects directly at 5Gbps on the M1 Mini.
<snip>

The speed difference between the T5 connecting at 5Gb/s and 10Gb/s is pretty minor - ~440MB/s vs ~520MB/s on sustained read/writes...so you'd probably not notice unless you were looking. This is because the T5 is limited to SATA speeds.

The 5Gb/s vs 10Gb/s issue has much more impact when it affects drives and enclosures using NVME disks.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Thanks for that - very helpful. What year is your MBP16 from?


The speed difference between the T5 connecting at 5Gb/s and 10Gb/s is pretty minor - ~440MB/s vs ~520MB/s on sustained read/writes...so you'd probably not notice unless you were looking. This is because the T5 is limited to SATA speeds.

The 5Gb/s vs 10Gb/s issue has much more impact when it affects drives and enclosures using NVME disks.

The MBP is late 2019.

I recall the T5 being significantly slower on the M1 Mini - about 25-30% slower than on the MBP16, and the same applied to every SSD I own (about 6 of them). This is even when connecting at 10Gbps with SATA disks that are not bottlenecked by the interface. At 5Gbps I recall some quite disappointing numbers in BM speed test - some even below 300MB/s. Maybe a couple got over 400MB/s. I wish I'd written down all the results!

No doubt some numbers will emerge over the next few weeks.

If it can get c. 900MB/s read/write with a Samsung T7, I'll be happy. On my M1 Mini I think I was getting 720-750MB/s write and reads a bit faster. It was certainly fast enough for my video files, but every little bit helps

 

[Love-hate 🍏 relationship]

I would definitely contact Apple about this, because that is seriously misleading. This is early days, though, there still could be some kind of OS-level issue going on.

i did ,and they dont give a **** ,even with a serious letter they dont care,problem is i cant really show any absolute evidence.currently im seeking for someone who has made torough tests,better be scientific or known website.lemme know if u find,imma tryna sue them again,that is unnacceptable

 

[white7561]

Here's my speed using Asus ROG Strix Arion NVMe Enclosure (ASM2362 chip inside) with an Addlink S70 1TB SSD (Phison E12S Controller) tested on the MacBook Pro 16" 2021 with M1 Pro.

Pretty good speed IMO. Also if you're wondering why it says the device is SSI M.2 NVME SSD, It's because the latest ASM2362 firmware has the naming things broken. So on the firmware flasher program even if i set it to match the Asus ROG one like before it won't change the name.. The firmware is good and stable though so i think it's fine.

Also another note, that Asus DOESN'T provide regular firmware updates for this enclosure !! But, since it's using the same ASM2362 controller like others. It works just fine on the Strix Arion.

 

[joevt]

Pretty good speed IMO.

Pretty good. But it's missing 13% performance compared to an Intel Mac. Or maybe even compared to a Thunderbolt 3 port of a Thunderbolt 3 dock connected to an M1 Mac?

 

[white7561]

Pretty good. But it's missing 13% performance compared to an Intel Mac. Or maybe even compared to a Thunderbolt 3 port of a Thunderbolt 3 dock connected to an M1 Mac?

I don't know. Don't have either I might go with thunderbolt 3 enclosure if I need the speed. But idk. Should I even wait for USB 4/Thunderbolt 4 enclosure?

 

[joevt]

Should I even wait for USB 4/Thunderbolt 4 enclosure?

No. Choose if you want 1060 MB/s USB (880 MB/s on M1) or 2800 MB/s Thunderbolt then get an enclosure and SSD that will do that.
The USB option will be much less expensive and the USB limit means you don't need a super fast NVMe.

 

[white7561]

No. Choose if you want 1060 MB/s USB (880 MB/s on M1) or 2800 MB/s Thunderbolt then get an enclosure and SSD that will do that.
The USB option will be much less expensive and the USB limit means you don't need a super fast NVMe.

Yeh. I was wondering if USB 4 40gbps vs thunderbolt 3 and 4 for external SSD make a difference since all of em are 40gbps.

 

[joevt]

Yeh. I was wondering if USB 4 40gbps vs thunderbolt 3 and 4 for external SSD make a difference since all of em are 40gbps.

40 Gbps is 5000 MB/s. We know Thunderbolt 3 can do 4867 MB/s of DisplayPort to an Apple Pro Display XDR but PCIe is limited to ≈3000 MB/s for reasons.

If someone can make an enclosure for Thunderbolt 3/4/USB4 that can do more than 3000 MB/s then you'll hear about it here, otherwise you'll have to wait for Thunderbolt 5/USB5.

 

[white7561]

40 Gbps is 5000 MB/s. We know Thunderbolt 3 can do 4867 MB/s of DisplayPort to an Apple Pro Display XDR but PCIe is limited to ≈3000 MB/s for reasons.

If someone can make an enclosure for Thunderbolt 3/4/USB4 that can do more than 3000 MB/s then you'll hear about it here, otherwise you'll have to wait for Thunderbolt 5/USB5.

Tbh thunderbolt 3 enclosure should be fine with gen 3x4 SSDs. The speeds tested on the Mac are usually tested using black magic tho so we dont know the max speed like if you were to test it using AmorphousDiskMark

 

[joevt]

Tbh thunderbolt 3 enclosure should be fine with gen 3x4 SSDs.

Should be. But some gen 3x4 SSDs behave strangely in Thunderbolt enclosures (write speed is reduced to sub 1000 MB/s). gen 4 SSDs usually don't have that problem.

 

[joevt]

Should be. But some gen 3x4 SSDs behave strangely in Thunderbolt enclosures (write speed is reduced to sub 1000 MB/s). gen 4 SSDs usually don't have that problem.

Actually, this YouTube video has a test where the gen 4 SN850 has bad behaviour for write speed (M1 and Intel):

Seems like a good video including USB-C and Thunderbolt tests, AmorphousDiskMark synthetic tests, large file copy tests, export times, and notes about SSD cache for longer writes.

The read speeds are getting really close to 25 Gbps (not an insignificant increase over the original description of 22 Gbps for Thunderbolt 3).

 

[Norbex]

I'm using a M1-chip MBP and to test it with Sandisk E61 directly attached (see pic 1), the actual speed falls into between 630-650MB/s both on read and written.

Sandisk E61 supports USB 3.2 gen2. So I guess the issue hasn't been fixed yet on M1 machines to date?

 

[400]

Completely in the dark here and reading many threads has just frazzled my brain and not sure what I am looking at, new thread or drop this Q in here?
M1 iMac.
I have now, a Crucial P2 2tb in a Orico USB3.1 Gen 2 case (TCM2-C3). (plan was to pick up a TB one when I see a deal).
If I use the Apple supplied C-C cable it is way worse. This is the cable as per Orico box. System report says 10gbs connection (up to).

What have I done wrong is the first question. This I the same on any port on the rear.

Edit. By the power of grey skull!
Re formated, encryption off this time.

 

[Stussi]

Seems this issue hasn't been discussed in all those Youtube Videos covering the M1 Pro / Max..

I've got the SanDisk portable SSD, 2TB with 1050MB/s and the 2000MB/s version each. The 2000MB/s version isn't much faster on the M1 Max...

1050MB/s Version:

2000MB/s Version:

Will post some Intel comparison later.

 

[wytwolf]

Seems this issue hasn't been discussed in all those Youtube Videos covering the M1 Pro / Max..

I've got the SanDisk portable SSD, 2TB with 1050MB/s and the 2000MB/s version each. The 2000MB/s version isn't much faster on the M1 Max...

1050MB/s Version:
View attachment 1923790

2000MB/s Version:
View attachment 1923791

Will post some Intel comparison later.

The 2000MBps version is a USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 which has already been reported no supported by apple. Hence the reason why the 1050MBps is almost the same as the 2000MBps version.

 

[Stussi]

Thanks for the heads-up on that. Didn't know that, thought USB4 includes this.. in my use case the speed is no problem.