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Kraszim

macrumors member
Feb 20, 2017
49
223

ABSOLUTELY NO!!!!!!!!!​


Vulkan is bag of hurt and it’s based on legacy code. If it functioned well and was powerful, and uses less power, Apple would’ve implemented.

Vulkan runs terribly on ARM based processors from my experience. And PC manufacturers are going more towards ARM that is more power efficient and powerful (and that’s all thanks to Apple showing the way) so unless people behind Vulkan rewrite the language to be very power efficient, it has no future.
Dude are you ok? Vulkan is an API specification, it would be literally Apple implementing it, and they could make it as good or bad as they are capable.
 

hyena.ftw

macrumors newbie
Apr 12, 2021
12
41
If the title was "Apple doesn't want to support Counter Strike 2 game on their hardware due to lack of interest" or something like that, people would be saying things like "don't even know what this game is", "it's just another fps shooter, meh" or "well done, Apple. invest in better/other games". lol
 

MacsRgr8

macrumors G3
Sep 8, 2002
8,277
1,743
The Netherlands
Use Whisky app but we can miss more and more native Mac ports due to this..

So is it a good thing or not...?

 
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Haiku_Oezu

macrumors 6502
Oct 31, 2016
462
602
Yeah doesn’t surprise me they didn’t bother adding a Metal renderer to Source 2
They could stick to MoltenVK but, who cares? Also the Vulkan renderer for CS2 is kind of bad ATM

I gave up and got a PC back in 2014 for gaming on the side and I haven’t looked back since.
The transition to Apple Silicon did not have to spell doom for “real” games on the Mac, but the focus on Metal sure did

Nobody is going to target an API that covers a minuscule fragment of the market, no matter how good it is
Just ask AMD how Mantle went for them

Apple is content with just having mobile games ported to the Mac with minimal effort and the occasional Resident Evil port that has to run with MetalFX upscaling

And yeah I know about crossover and Game Porting Toolkit, but unless Apple implements a proton style translation layer that’s not gonna be something most people will be interested in working with.
Not to mention that’s not really attracting devs to your platform, ultimately it boils down to devs having to use Metal and that’s not something everyone can afford to sink development time and money into
 

rp100

macrumors regular
Sep 15, 2016
216
560
The ROI must be unattractive (or negative) for Valve not to pursue a Mac port. A handful of opinionated Mac forum keyboard jockeys does not necessarily translate into a viable business market, and if anyone would know the numbers it would be Valve.
 
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Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,413
8,091
I'm not a gamer, but this company lacks vision and certainly doesn't look after their customer base 😏

Seeing as CS2 made $40,000,000 from skin case openings on the first day, yeah I don't think the majority of the customerbase cares. Valve said it themselves, macOS players were less than 1% of the entire playerbase. They're a drop in the bucket compared to the people who play Counter Strike daily.

Plus Valve's business philosophy is you can work on whatever you want so long as it brings value, so ideas remain fresh and employees not feeling burnt out. Employees jump from projects constantly, to the point all their desks are on wheels to easily move their work around. A common saying around the Valve office is "oh, bring your desk," and they even reference this in their Steam Deck tech demo Aperture Desk Job. Through this philosophy we got VR, the Steam Deck and well, STEAM.
 
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Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,413
8,091
And this is prime example of developer being……..

LAZY.


Would not be surprised if Steam support for macOS is next to be dropped. Direction Valve is taking lately is not good.

Valve just ported the entirety of CSGO to a brand new engine, making sure everyone's inventories they built over the course of a decade is there, and said engine upgrade is free instead of being paid. The work required to do that took over four years, and you're calling them lazy?

This is why y'all ain't getting a Mac port and why gamers hate Mac users.
 

zilchfox

macrumors regular
Jun 30, 2015
204
629
Atlanta, GA
Apple needs to actively invest money into game dev companies as an incentive to build up the gaming market on Apple Silicon, badly. The hardware is there to run every game in existence, but the software is simply not compatible. If Apple is serious about gaming on Apple Silicon, pay them as incentive.
 

superberg

macrumors member
May 12, 2010
92
180
Schaumburg, IL
I think, the biggest limitation for Counter Strike games on Macs is 60hz refresh rate.
M-series MacBook Pros have 120Hz displays.

The limitation is the amount of work to port. Whether it’s “easy” or not, Valve doesn’t think it will be worth the effort.

FWIW, it was cool to see No Man’s Sky come to Mac, but I had so many issues with controller support in Steam for Mac (using an 8bitdo Ultimate) that I went back to playing on Windows with an ROG Ally. Maybe I’ll get a PS5 or Xbox controller and use that instead.
 
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Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,413
8,091
M-series MacBook Pros have 120Hz displays.

The limitation is the amount of work to port. Whether it’s “easy” or not, Valve doesn’t think it will be worth the effort.

FWIW, it was cool to see No Man’s Sky come to Mac, but I had so many issues with controller support in Steam for Mac (using an 8bitdo Ultimate) that I went back to playing on Windows with an ROG Ally. Maybe I’ll get a PS5 or Xbox controller and use that instead.

I had zero issues getting my Dualsense to work on Steam for Mac. I just plugged it into the USB-C port and boom I was ready to go
 
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brooklyn360

macrumors member
Jun 24, 2010
78
52
Wish Apple's monitors had a KVM switch or at least a higher refresh rate. There are many good monitors out there that let you pair a mbp/mac with a gaming pc/laptop/xbox. It's a beautiful thing to see them work together and almost seamlessly.
 

Unggoy Murderer

macrumors 65816
Jan 28, 2011
1,132
3,877
Edinburgh, UK
The harsh reality is that a “migration toolkit” only helps the developer build an additional platform-dependent version that presumably has to be maintained, updated, and tested for the lifetime of the product. For all those costs to be worth it, you have to think you will add a significant number of players.

If I’m developing a PC game, I would give investing in producing additional versions for Xbox and PlayStation SERIOUS consideration because of the large numbers of established players. The additional costs are likely to be worth it. I just don’t see the additional costs for a Mac version panning out.
Yes of course, but the route to achieve that (both in initial porting and maintenance) is made considerably easier, which is the point I'm making.

In addition, the ability to port a game to macOS could mean that the porting to iOS or iPadOS could also be viable. We might be seeing the start of this with Resident Evil Village being released for the iPhone 15.
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,413
8,091
I call BS..... if they're making it for Linux, they should make it for MAC.

Linux uses the same APIs as Windows so it takes little to no effort to support Linux for Valve (the beauty of using Vulkan.) macOS is not the same since you are forced to use Metal, so that would require rebuilding the entire game again (which they just spent four years doing that to make CS2) and that is just not worth it since there are very few people playing the game on Mac.
 
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progx

macrumors 6502a
Oct 3, 2003
739
791
Pennsylvania
Yet they support the wildly fragmented 1.67% of Linux users? I don’t play CS, nor do I play games on my Mac, but this seems to fly against Valve’s wide platform support. Will their Linux builds on target SteamOS going forward? Even though they can’t properly count Ubuntu users? (Rumor has it, those still outnumber SteamOS.)

Also, didn’t Valve build out an API for Vulkan to Metal? MoltenVK?
 

ric22

macrumors 65816
Mar 8, 2022
1,389
1,311
Apple do appear to be leaning into gaming a lot more over the last 18 months. Hopefully these low-level API issues can be resolved in the future.
Macs are pretty darn crappy for gaming purposes, unless you have an M1/M2 Pro or Max chip. That's a small percentage of a small market.
 

Spaceboi Scaphandre

macrumors 68040
Jun 8, 2022
3,413
8,091
Yet they support the wildly fragmented 1.67% of Linux users?

Yes because there are more people playing on Linux than on Mac, and Valve wants Linux to become more popular which is why they made the Steam Deck to begin with. Plus again, it's a lot easier to support Linux than it is macOS since the Linux build uses the same APIs

I don’t play CS, nor do I play games on my Mac, but this seems to fly against Valve’s wide platform support.

And now you know why Valve doesn't support macOS anymore. You admitted yourself you don't play the game, or any game on your Mac. The majority of people on Steam for Mac weren't playing CS, they were playing other things. So it's not worth it in Valve's eye to support macOS anymore, especially given how much Apple makes game development on Mac a nightmare that the majority of gamedevs do not want to bother.

Will their Linux builds on target SteamOS going forward? Even though they can’t properly count Ubuntu users? (Rumor has it, those still outnumber SteamOS.)

Arch Linux is listed as the #1 Linux distro on Steam, which SteamOS runs off Arch.

Also Ubuntu sucks lmao. Snaps are so awful.

Also, didn’t Valve build out an API for Vulkan to Metal? MoltenVK?

MoltenVK lacks many features of Vulkan and is not a be all end all solution. You'd still have to do a lot of testing to make sure everything works right in the update, and in a highly technical game like CS where any small change could drastically change the game (like over the weekend hitboxes were broken) it's not worth it in their eyes.
 
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Sasparilla

macrumors 68000
Jul 6, 2012
1,954
3,355
You can expect this to continue happening for as long as Apple pushes Metal and refuses to support Vulkan. People are not going to design desktop class games around API that has single platform use. Blizzard did the same thing, with dropping macOS support in their newest titles, although they for now keep the old ones working. If macOS wants to get anywhere is desktop game support it has to be a case "why not support it" instead of "we need to make a Metal compatible version of our engine".

I think this was well said. I think Mac OS's hope for new games is really ports to it from iOS as that forces the Metal coding already (as laughable as the statement might seem serious games can run on iOS these days). That will get better / easier as time goes on, JMHO. Doesn't help us much now.
 

mielie

macrumors regular
Aug 19, 2020
127
241
You can expect this to continue happening for as long as Apple pushes Metal and refuses to support Vulkan. People are not going to design desktop class games around API that has single platform use. Blizzard did the same thing, with dropping macOS support in their newest titles, although they for now keep the old ones working. If macOS wants to get anywhere is desktop game support it has to be a case "why not support it" instead of "we need to make a Metal compatible version of our engine".

Metal is not single platform. It's used by Mac, iOS and Apple TV. Considering the market share of iPhone, there are a lot of potential customers out there with metal compatible devices...

I guess you could say it was 'single platform' in so much as its only used by Apple, but then again the same is true of DirectX which only runs on Windows, Xbox or the hugely successful Windows Phone.
 

Ethosik

Contributor
Oct 21, 2009
7,730
6,609
Macs are not viable for games like this. There are gamers that require 240+ hz monitors and even PS/2 mouse/keyboard setup to eliminate their input lag. I know someone that avoids USB input devices for this reason.
 

surfzen21

macrumors 65816
May 31, 2019
1,032
3,809
New York
What a dumb outlook - why not use this opportunity to draw NEW and MORE players in, plenty game on Mac but Mac will never been taken seriously for gaming if no devs put the time and effort in to optimise their games.
Agree.

It seems they are admitting their game is kinda trash and wont entice new players on a different platform.

At best their game continues to survive on legacy players. Such a weird take.
 
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