Verizon Rejected iPhone Deal due to Apple's Terms

[yg17]

I do not know a SINGLE Cingular customer who likes or even loves them. The best I've been able to get is meh...they are OK. The complaints range from their coverage maps being outright lies, to customer service that blows with hurricane force, to mysterious upgrades on their service, to getting major run arounds when you try and cancel your service, and on and on and on. All this coming from several dozen people ranging from corp accounts, to personal accounts.
Frankly I'd rather go without a cellphone then go with Cingular. what it boils down to is that Apple has gotten in bed with the Microsoft of the mobile phone industry.

I found the easiest way to cancel my Suckgular contract was not to call and talk to some guy named "John" in New Dehli, but to port the number over to a better carrier. Port=auto cancel

But yeah, I couldn't imagine attempting to call them to cancel. It would probably be horrible. Their customer service doesn't just blow with hurricane force.....they're 4 hurricane Katrinas and the customers are New Orelans

 

[donlphi]

Okay... let's not get the iPhone... let's just wait for the Apple Ultra-Portable MacBook Pro w/ 12" widescreen and a Slot for my Sprint EV-DO Rev. A card.

Problem solved.

Next rumor please.

 

[SiliconAddict]

Add to that: SBC (a big company, and former baby bell) bought the near defunct AT&T solely for their name.

Even after all these years and BILLIONS of dollars, "AT&T" is still the strongest brand name in US telecom, and the only US telecom brand that has any international cachet.

A better summery.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj1Mtv9cD0I

 

[Porchland]

Apple needed Verizon more than Verizon needed apple. Hell apple needs the cellular companies more than they need apple and yet apple demands to be the one in control.. typical apple. I wonder if after being told off by Verizon they change there demands quite a bit.

Your first statement conflicts with your second.

Apple didn't need Verizon at all because Cingular/AT&T gives them the exact same thing -- a nationwide carrier with a large market share. When the exclusivity period runs out and the iPhone is the No. 1 phone in the country in America, the other carriers will all want it.

The fact that Apple will eventually want all of the carriers doesn't mean it needs Verizon or any other single carrier.

 

[autrefois]

Living in the UK, I can't understand the difference between Cingular / Verizon / Sprint / etc. What I do know is, on the day the iPhone was announced, on MacRumors all I saw were you guys in the US saying what a tragedy it was that it was exclusive to Cingular...

Now, the majority of the posts in this thread are... "I'm switching to Cingular asap", "Verizon is rubbish, Cingular here I come", etc.

What's going on?

Has Cingular got better in two weeks? Were you just annoyed that it was a locked phone (understandable)? Or are all the Cingular bashers staying away from this thread? Explain please...

You apparently aren't familiar with the cycle:

Apple makes a controversial/questionable move. Tons (usually a majority) of people moan and groan. Negative comments and questions abound and are generally acceptable albeit contested, while a minority of voices support Apple.

A few days go by. More and more people start to find arguments explaining why Apple made that move. Obviously Apple knows what it's doing, look at past history (iPod, etc.). It's about half and half.

In a couple of weeks, the majory of people declare that Apple obviously knew what it was doing all along and that anyone who doesn't agree is obviously uninformed or doesn't trust/like Apple enough.

Does the number of people on each side change? Probably, because a lot of people here are well informed and some disinformation is cleared up. But in some cases, I think naysayers just lose their resolve eventually. That's why you'll see a lot of negative rankings even when most comments are positive or neutral.

Are the naysayers usually right or wrong? Depends on your perspective. Apple as a company are doing magnificently financially right now. This doesn't necessarily mean they do the best for their customers or for advancing technology in general, but their goal is to make money.

Could they be doing better financially or marketshare-wise if they used other strategies? Probably in some cases, but it's hard to say. As long as Steve Jobs is at the head of the company, there will be plenty of times when they do something that seems crazy or maybe is crazy, but for whatever reason (reality distortion field, luck/karma, business acumen) these crazy things work...a lot of the time.

 

[Porchland]

Actually, you're both wrong. LOL. It's confusing, but in a nutshell:

Cingular bough AT&T Wireless --> Cingular Wireless

AT&T (The big company) bought Cingular Wireless --> AT&T

Cingular spent BILLIONS of dollars to create their brand, and now to throw it all away. Irony.

w00master

That's not exactly right.

In 2001, SBC and BellSouth formed Cingular as a joint venture, combining their collective wireless assets into one company.

In 2004, Cingular bought AT&T Wireless for $41 billion. (AT&T had been broken into several chunks, one of which was the wireless business.)

In 2005, SBC -- which owned part of Cingular -- bought AT&T (another chunk that was not the wireless chunk) for $16 billion and adopted its name.

In 2006, AT&T (i.e. SBC) bought BellSouth for $85 billion, putting Cingular -- owned by SBC and BellSouth -- under one roof.

AT&T is now more or less four of the the original Baby Bells (Pacific Bell, Southwestern Bell, BellSouth and Ameritech) that resulted from the 1984 divestiture of AT&T (long distance) from the Regional Bell Operating Companies (local carriers). The other original Baby Bells are now Qwest (US West) and Verizon (Nynex and Bell Atlantic).

When in doubt, wiki.

And yeah, dumping the Cingular brand is stupid.

 

[wnurse]

Yet another reason why I do not like Verizon and cannot wait until my contract is up

You don't like verizon becuase they didn't want apple to own their customers?. Actually, I think Verizon is smart and cingular is stupid if they signed such a deal. Apple independent dealers have a thing or two to tell cingular. Remember when apple independent dealers were told they had to push apple protection plans and not only that, but to hand apple their customers list and many independent dealers were complaining about how apple would call their customers behind their backs?. Yeah. Everyone was on apple side on that, claiming that the independent dealers suck, yada, yada, yada. Well, why would verizon agree to hand over to apple their customers?. We'll see how smart cingular is within 5 years when apple decides to start their own cell phone companies and have at their fingertips the phone numbers and contact data for all of cingular customers. Cingular is in business to make money, not be cool to apple fans. If i were a cingular shareholder, i'd be furious. Customer data is not free. Companies pay billions for customer data and yet not only is apple acquiring customer data for free (this data they can use when and if they decide to start their own cell phone company) but they are demanding carriers pay for the privelege of divulging their business secret. Wow, that is amazing. If i was a verizon shareholder, i'd be loving them right now. Cingular, you have just bought yourself short term boost but long term, you have given the market to verizon. The apple phone is not gonna put verizon out of business.. it will not even make that significant a dent to verizon (how many people are gonna pay $500 for a phone?.. not me for sure) but all verizon has to do is sit back and wait inevitably for apple to stab cingular in the back.

 

[Rot'nApple]

You want the truth?!

I understand your comments here, but it still doesn't really explain why everyone, all of a sudden, is all for getting a Cingular iPhone. I would say (and I'm sure there was a poll on it straight after the Keynote), that 80% were against getting the iPhone in the US; now it seems to be 80% want it, and not only that, but are bashing the competing carriers...

To those in the UK with me... do we find any one carrier better / worse than all the others? Coverage seems to be fine with most carriers. I've been with T-Mobile, Orange, 02 and '3', and - except for poor customer service with '3' - I'd say they were pretty similar... any comments?

I'm with Orange now (student deal), therefore I hope they get the iPhone. But I wouldn't worry that much about switching if someone else got it.

You can't handle the truth! Sorry, I just had to add that tag line from the movie "A Few Good Men" with Tom Cruise and Jack Nicolson.

Jack Nicolson's character has the answer to your question. It went something like this in the movie, "I'm an educated man, but I am affraid I can't speak intelligently on the travel habits of William Santiago".

I'm an educated person but I am afraid I can't speak intelligently on the rantings of Americans other than to say, we love to be opposite because it will agitate someone, somewhere. It's not a hate thing or anything like that, it's just an American thing.

That is why someone can bash Cingular one day and then say I'm switching to them the next. They may not want Cingular's service, for whatever their reason, but they are forced to, so they bash. They do want the Apple iPhone, therefore they are willing to go with Cingular in their next "rant" post. Regarding why Cingular was bashed first, then accepted and now everone has moved on bashing Verizon or Sprint or whatever, that is just because Americans love to gripe!

Hope that helps.

 

[richard4339]

My quandry is simple; Verizon clearly sucks, they have horrible customer service and lock down everything so they can make money off of it. Unfortunately, in my area, the only cell phone company with reception worth using is Verizon; Cingular's "Least Dropped Calls" argument does not hold up here. TMobile is gaining on Verizon in reliability, but I don't really want to use them for personal reasons (I worked for a TMobile store once, didn't like their practices). The thing is, I'd love an iPhone, but in this area, I'd definately be sacrificing reliability.

Disclaimer: I want to clarify before a TMobile employee attacks; I worked for a TMobile authorized retailer and it was their practices I did not like, not TMobile as a whole. As a result, I would just prefer to not work for them. Strangely enough, they are now a Sprint authorized retailer.

 

[wnurse]

with the combination of apple's great products and cingular's great service i can bet that thousands of people will switch to cingular. cingular is promoting this phone like no body's business. and we will probably start to see some apple commercials that are promoting the i phone. Im not sure where i am going at except for i really, really wish i owned cingular right now. $$$$$$

Go ahead, buy cingular and hope millions of people will fork over $500 cause we like, don't have anything better to do with our money. Only people who are interested in looking cool will fork over their money, usually, those people are single digits percentage (ask apple, they should know.. afterall their marketshare for computers are single digits). Yeah, run, don't walk to get cingular shares and in 5 years when apple stabs them in the back by forming their own cell phone company and stealing cingular customers (to which they will have customer data readily available).. please don't forget to dump the stock like a hot radioactive potato. I think Verizon will live. There are many cool phones on the market and for the people who don't care to plunk $500 for a phone, verizon will seem like a excellent choice (also for those that like to be connected). Personally, i am not a verizon customer but in the washingto dc area, they have the best reception. At the end of the day, a phone is a phone and a cardinal sin is for a phone not being able to make a call (playing music and browsing pictures are just nice perks).

People said the very same thing when the iPod was introduced.

I would argue for what the iPhone does, in relation to competitors like Blackberry, the price is very attractive. Businesses will snap up iPhones for their employees like crazy.

Why?. Will the iphone have push email?. Will it be able to access corporate networks. Will it have a multitude of third party programs (oh wait, i remember stevie saying something about that). You are too hilarious. Yeah, companies can't wait to give their employees a device whoose main strength will be that it can play music from the itunes store. We all know what a productivity tool that is. Forget reading corporate email, access corporate documents (word, pdf, etc). No!!!.. corporations have been dying for a device that would allow their employees to play music from itunes, see cover art, transer their photos. Damn corporate documents. Those are boring anyway!. As for push email. Bleh, corporations can do without that. Who needs email anyway when you can give your employees an overpriced ipod that can make phone calls. Personally, i have always had a disdain for blackberries which can be had for 299 (some models).. personally, i think they are too cheap. I've been saving my hard earned cash for a really expensive phone. I know i for one will get the $600 version and $500 is too cheap for me.

 

[aixia]

I've used Verizon and Cingular (and AT&T) and I use Verizon currently. While I'm disappointed that I won't have the option of having an iPhone anytime soon, I'm NOT switching. First off, I don't have $500 to spend on a phone, that's ludicrous. I get the freebie (or cheapie) phone every two years when I renew my contract, I don't see much point in shelling out that kind of money for a phone. But second, I had so many problems with both AT&T and Cingular when I had them it was pathetic. I was in rural Utah, and they were the only choice in terms of coverage. However, they both, a year apart, signed me up for the wrong plan (pay-as-you-go) and charged me more than I'd agreed to. Canceling my service was a huge hassle, both times. Both times I complained, and both times it went nowhere. I've been quite happy with Verizon for years. (My grad school actually had a Verizon tower on the roof of the main building- best reception ever!)

If Verizon thought they were doing the best for their bottom line by telling Apple no, fine. It would have been nice to have the option, but it's not an option I would have taken anyway. While the iPhone is cool, it's so expensive that I find it hard to believe that it's going to sell as well as people keep predicting. Maybe I'm woefully behind the times, but do people really have the disposable income to drop that much money for a phone, in addition to having to pay for the monthly service?

 

[iW00t]

Why does Apple deserve a percentage of the user's monthly usage charges?

Is it not enough that their phone is 300% more expensive than the competition?

 

[jhedges3]

Why is Verizon evil!

http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/22/78363_21NNnsaspying_1.html

Enough said.

I want no iphone on verizon!

Not enough said. Did you actually read that article?

(1) It says reports claim, “AT&T, BellSouth, and Verizon turned over customer information.” So why is it again that Verizon, in particular, is evil?

(2) It says, “DoJ also subpoenaed 34 ISPs, including Verizon and major Internet search and security firms in that case. According to the documents obtained by InformationWeek, some of those companies, including Verizon, objected to the requests, citing the sensitivity of the data being requested.” So is Verizon evil because it objected to DoJ requests or was it something else that bothered you about them?

(3) Furthermore, is a company evil to you if it lawfully provides information used in serious and legitimate terror investigations?

(4) What does all of this have to do with you not wanting an iPhone? Are you really that concerned that if Verizon had the iPhone they’d be passing on your information to some twisted government agency?

 

[TuckBodi]

$200 for T-Mobile. I checked but I don't think I'll switch. T-Mobile plans & service is far better than Cingular's...But the iPhone & it's features are temping.

I'm in a quandary...as an old AT&T Wireless user I absolutely hated them. Bad reception and even poorer customer service. Like this person I'm now with T-Mobile here in Denver and love them. Great reception all the way into the mountains and even when I travel out of state. The little times I've had to call customer service they've been night & day compared to AT&T Wireless. Even with that said, my contract is up and I'm thinking of switching to Cingular and an iPhone.

What other T-Mobile users are out there and are you thinking of switching?

Are there any Denver Cingular users out there and what do you think of their coverage and service these days?

Last comment...I have to believe HSDPA is just around the corner for the iPhone. Everything on the phone just crys out for it and its gotta just be a matter of Cingular building out the network. Here's hoping a firmware upgrade will get you on it!

 

[donlphi]

Why does Apple deserve a percentage of the user's monthly usage charges?

Is it not enough that their phone is 300% more expensive than the competition?

I think the reason WHY is because they are being exclusive with Cingular, therefore limiting the amount of money they COULD make. We also don't know how much of the phone cost goes to cingular and how much goes to Apple. LET'S NOT FORGET UNIVERSAL and the MICROSOFT ZUNE EFFECT.

Either way, who cares...

It's an iPOD: (cheapest one cost $150 w/o video)

It plays video: (iPOD video cost around $250)

It makes phone calls: (sure phones with a camera could be free with most plans, but for a decent one will run you at least $100)

It syncs with iCal, Address Book, and Mail on my mac (priceless)

It browses the internet like no other phone... slow, but formatted correctly. (priceless).

Cutting Edge Technology and UI (also priceless)

Data Speed/Service aside, the $600 is a reasonable price. Sure I'd like to see a few more features for that price (maybe a free cleaning service for my apartment for a month and a subscription to sports illustrated), but overall, I think MOST people will be pleased with the bang they get for their buck.

Anyway... Apple has to get some of that money back for all of the years of developing the iPHONE. Several people on that design team need to get paid.

 

[iW00t]

I think the reason WHY is because they are being exclusive with Cingular, therefore limiting the amount of money they COULD make. We also don't know how much of the phone cost goes to cingular and how much goes to Apple. LET'S NOT FORGET UNIVERSAL and the MICROSOFT ZUNE EFFECT.

Either way, who cares...

It's an iPOD: (cheapest one cost $150 w/o video)

It plays video: (iPOD video cost around $250)

It makes phone calls: (sure phones with a camera could be free with most plans, but for a decent one will run you at least $100)

It syncs with iCal, Address Book, and Mail on my mac (priceless)

It browses the internet like no other phone... slow, but formatted correctly. (priceless).

Cutting Edge Technology and UI (also priceless)

Data Speed/Service aside, the $600 is a reasonable price. Sure I'd like to see a few more features for that price (maybe a free cleaning service for my apartment for a month and a subscription to sports illustrated), but overall, I think MOST people will be pleased with the bang they get for their buck.

Anyway... Apple has to get some of that money back for all of the years of developing the iPHONE. Several people on that design team need to get paid.

Yes. For $600 it comes with 3G and UTMS too.... oh wait.

I can also sync and load in my third party applications.... oh wait on that too...

I will happily leave T-mobile and sign up with Cingular. Big oh wait.

Because tons of IT departments are running Macs and hence sync their employees with iCal. That oh wait line is starting to get old.

More caveats than pros. We shall see how it'd ultimately pan out. I can see lots of people buying it to use as a video player, but as a smart phone it is kinda.... as interesting as a Windows XP user with "Calculator".

 

[Stella]

To get this thing sold it needs the support of cellular network providers. If they wouldn't take the iPhone it wouldn't sell as well as otherwise... even if you are paying full price for a phone that is still locked down to one provider.

Suurreee... the iPhone is the only phone that can manage correctly formatted web pages.... :\

Really, some people are saying the iPod contains functionality that no other phones does ( and that really does get irrirating ).

I think the reason WHY is because they are being exclusive with Cingular, therefore limiting the amount of money they COULD make. We also don't know how much of the phone cost goes to cingular and how much goes to Apple. LET'S NOT FORGET UNIVERSAL and the MICROSOFT ZUNE EFFECT.

Either way, who cares...

It's an iPOD: (cheapest one cost $150 w/o video)

It plays video: (iPOD video cost around $250)

It makes phone calls: (sure phones with a camera could be free with most plans, but for a decent one will run you at least $100)

It syncs with iCal, Address Book, and Mail on my mac (priceless)

It browses the internet like no other phone... slow, but formatted correctly. (priceless).

Cutting Edge Technology and UI (also priceless)

Data Speed/Service aside, the $600 is a reasonable price. Sure I'd like to see a few more features for that price (maybe a free cleaning service for my apartment for a month and a subscription to sports illustrated), but overall, I think MOST people will be pleased with the bang they get for their buck.

Anyway... Apple has to get some of that money back for all of the years of developing the iPHONE. Several people on that design team need to get paid.

 

[yg17]

I'm in a quandary...as an old AT&T Wireless user I absolutely hated them. Bad reception and even poorer customer service. Like this person I'm now with T-Mobile here in Denver and love them. Great reception all the way into the mountains and even when I travel out of state. The little times I've had to call customer service they've been night & day compared to AT&T Wireless. Even with that said, my contract is up and I'm thinking of switching to Cingular and an iPhone.

What other T-Mobile users are out there and are you thinking of switching?

Are there any Denver Cingular users out there and what do you think of their coverage and service these days?

Last comment...I have to believe HSDPA is just around the corner for the iPhone. Everything on the phone just crys out for it and its gotta just be a matter of Cingular building out the network. Here's hoping a firmware upgrade will get you on it!

I'm a T-Mobile user....been with them for a month after my 2 year contract with Suckgular was up. They're excellent, and I wouldn't go back to Cingular if they gave me the phone and service for free.

If you didn't like ATT Wireless, then you'll find nothing to like about Cingular. They're one in the same. I had ATT Wireless pre-merger and they weren't that bad. I switched to Cingular shortly after the merger when they were letting ATT customers switch to Cingular and break the ATT contract with no fees (we wanted new phones and to add a line as well, that's why we switched) and it was just horrible for those 2 years. If you didn't like ATT then, then you won't like ATT now.

Granted, I have no idea what Cingular is like in Denver. I imagine they suck more than a drunk Paris Hilton, but who knows, it does vary by region. But one thing doesn't vary by region, and that's customer service. Having talked to both Cingular and T-Mo customer service, I agree, the difference is like night and day. With Cingular, I felt like an extra few dollars in some CEO's income, with T-Mobile, I feel like a valued customer.

 

[iW00t]

To get this thing sold it needs the support of cellular network providers. If they wouldn't take the iPhone it wouldn't sell as well as otherwise... even if you are paying full price for a phone that is still locked down to one provider.

Suurreee... the iPhone is the only phone that can manage correctly formatted web pages.... :\

Really, some people are saying the iPod contains functionality that no other phones does ( and that really does get irrirating ).

I am no fan of Verizon but some of Apple's terms sounds kinda unreasonable to me.

It is just too bad that Verizon doesn't see Apple's latest brainchild as anything more than another turd from Nokia or Motorola. It may be cool, but at least some corporate PHBs in Verizon have their heads screwed on correctly to maintain perspective.

Restrictions on stores it can be sold in? 2 year contract but no subsidies on pricing? Monthly percentage of user's subscription fees? On top of that the phone costs $600? Exclusive or not we all know how well it is going to sell (read: no better than another smartphone, but it sure is not going to steal a lot of sales from the average-phone-using crowd).

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I am no fan of Verizon but some of Apple's terms sounds kinda unreasonable to me.

It is just too bad that Verizon doesn't see Apple's latest brainchild as anything more than another turd from Nokia or Motorola. It may be cool, but at least some corporate PHBs in Verizon have their heads screwed on correctly to maintain perspective.

Restrictions on stores it can be sold in? 2 year contract but no subsidies on pricing? Monthly percentage of user's subscription fees? On top of that the phone costs $600? Exclusive or not we all know how well it is going to sell (read: no better than another smartphone, but it sure is not going to steal a lot of sales from the average-phone-using crowd).

Oh I think Verizon would of seen it going well. Most people know Apple has following of people who love them. In this following you have a small number who would buy anything apple including something dog poo painted white and pay a pretty heavy amount for it and call it one of the greatest things on earth. Yes that is an extreme end but Verizon would of know that. They would of known people would break contracts to switch over to them just because of the iPhone.

But Verizon also saw this deal apple was offering as bad for them and rightfully so called it unreliable and turned it done rightfully so. I agree with Verizon on turning down those terms because I sure as hell would of if I was Verizon.

 

[clevin]

Verizon isn't stupid, iphone isn't necessarily going to sell good anyway. If apple want iPhone to succeed, establish its own network. lol

 

[iW00t]

Oh I think Verizon would of seen it going well. Most people know Apple has following of people who love them. In this following you have a small number who would buy anything apple including something dog poo painted white and pay a pretty heavy amount for it and call it one of the greatest things on earth. Yes that is an extreme end but Verizon would of know that. They would of known people would break contracts to switch over to them just because of the iPhone.

But Verizon also saw this deal apple was offering as bad for them and rightfully so called it unreliable and turned it done rightfully so. I agree with Verizon on turning down those terms because I sure as hell would of if I was Verizon.

It cuts both ways.

There are people who buy things marketoids tell them are "cool", and there are also people who see things that everyone is using as uncool.

Well there are a lot of Apple fans alright, but only 3% are fan enough to actually walk the walk and buy a Mac. See the contradiction?

With low commitment and investment items like the iPod, hell $300 is just throw away money. With a $600 phone that requires a 2 year contract for a $100 monthly phone plan with a not so stellar service provider? Get out!

 

[Raidersmojo]

cingular is about to get a bunch of new customers thanks to the iphone..I already know my dad has said when it comes out we will be switching to cingular and getting two iphones (one for him and myself )

my mom is also planning on getting one and switching to cingular...oh and her husband will be doing that too

a bunch of my friends are contemplating the switch as well

the phone is to cool, its the best piece of technology out there right now. 5 years ahead of its time and some people are saying its a bad move? we won't know until a few months after the phone is released

but we should start a tally of how many people (just on this forum maybe a poll?) who are going to switch to get this device

 

[Rodimus Prime]

It cuts both ways.

There are people who buy things marketoids tell them are "cool", and there are also people who see things that everyone is using as uncool.

Well there are a lot of Apple fans alright, but only 3% are fan enough to actually walk the walk and buy a Mac. See the contradiction?

With low commitment and investment items like the iPod, hell $300 is just throw away money. With a $600 phone that requires a 2 year contract for a $100 monthly phone plan with a not so stellar service provider? Get out!

True but I just started it from the extreme end and from there it a good deal. and it also playing off the iPod fame.

I am personally waiting for some good laugh when people start posting here complaining on the fact they have to buy a new phone because they broke there iPhone. I expect to see quite post on people breaking there iPhone.

I personally do not think the iPhone is worth it. it a 600 dollar phone that can easily break and I do not see it lasting 2 years in my ownership. I am pretty rough on my phones. That and it just not something I would want it has a lot of flaws in it.

Cingular I have no problem with. I switch over to them about 7 months ago and have not had a single issue. When I did deal with costumer service they where pretty good. (only had to deal with them once) and the call quality for me has been great. Just not going to get an iPhone. I like my cheaper tougher, lighter and smaller flip phone a lot more. It also function better as a phone which is my primary use for a cell phone. The iPhone has to give up some of that funtionallity to allow for everything else. But to each there own.

 

[GotPro]

I don't understand...

Why would Apple NOT want it's iPhone in as many distribution channels as possible?

Sounds a little TOO MUCH like 1984, if you ask me...