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Verizon Rejected iPhone Deal due to Apple's Terms
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Can you add some more spicier terms? I feel like we need more of a R-rated statement from you.
The Apple job listings for EDGE engineers started about a year ago so it seems clear they had a mid-course correction when Verizon said no.
One wonders what high speed wireless network AT&T (Cingular) is deploying. Has anyone heard? Edge is literally first generation wireless data, and it is pretty clear the long-term plan for iPhone (ATN) is to rely mostly on 802.11 and voip.
Rocketman
Thank GOD!
I hate Verizon to the very core of my being! I actually threw my phone on the ground and broke it I was so furious at the horrible service (both cellular and customer).
Because of the "Rumor" that an Apple phone would launch on Cingular, I went out and bought an unlocked phone and signed up with Cingular service (no contract) and just paid out the last month of my Verizon contract.
If the iPhone had been announced on Verizon I would NOT buy it, even if they were giving them away for free! I hate Verizon that much!
However, I believe that if this were AT&T negotiating, the deal would never have happened either. There is a reason that Cingular became bigger than AT&T wireless, because AT&T has no vision. Remember all of those TV commercials from the 80's touting the wonderful things that AT&T would bring in the future? They didn't deliver on any of them! Other companies did! It's sad that Cingular is now being rolled back into that turd of a company AT&T. I think it's a terrible idea to re-brand Cingular under the horrible brand of AT&T. I only hope they don't screw it up again!
I hate Verizon to the very core of my being! I actually threw my phone on the ground and broke it I was so furious at the horrible service (both cellular and customer).
Because of the "Rumor" that an Apple phone would launch on Cingular, I went out and bought an unlocked phone and signed up with Cingular service (no contract) and just paid out the last month of my Verizon contract.
If the iPhone had been announced on Verizon I would NOT buy it, even if they were giving them away for free! I hate Verizon that much!
However, I believe that if this were AT&T negotiating, the deal would never have happened either. There is a reason that Cingular became bigger than AT&T wireless, because AT&T has no vision. Remember all of those TV commercials from the 80's touting the wonderful things that AT&T would bring in the future? They didn't deliver on any of them! Other companies did! It's sad that Cingular is now being rolled back into that turd of a company AT&T. I think it's a terrible idea to re-brand Cingular under the horrible brand of AT&T. I only hope they don't screw it up again!
What are the chances that Apple just came up with the demands and tossed them to Verizon as a feeler just to see what service providers would or wouldn't provide?
If you know that you're not going to go exclusive with a limited CDMA market, why not test the waters by tossing out a feeler to see what you can reel in? Then, take those lessons learned and move on to the guy you really want to do business with?
If you know that you're not going to go exclusive with a limited CDMA market, why not test the waters by tossing out a feeler to see what you can reel in? Then, take those lessons learned and move on to the guy you really want to do business with?
Um . . . With all due respect you just described iPhone.
Except they found a way to charge you extra of course.
Rocketman
Actually, you're both wrong. LOL. It's confusing, but in a nutshell:
Cingular bough AT&T Wireless --> Cingular Wireless
AT&T (The big company) bought Cingular Wireless --> AT&T
Cingular spent BILLIONS of dollars to create their brand, and now to throw it all away. Irony.
w00master
Yea I think some of us here are automatically assuming that Cingular got the same deal as Verizon. Maybe it was a very different deal.
By the way, do we know if Cingular/AT&T's contract require Apple to not make a CDMA version of iPhone for Verizon/Sprint?
Next question is, since iPhone is entering the Asian market so late, anyone think by then they will have a better revision (i.e. 3G, VOIP, 802.11n, 3MP camera, etc.) ready for Asia?
Doesn't matter. Two years ago, Apple would have decided on the technology before shopping around for a slavemaste... erm, I mean carrier.
Choose IS-95/IS-2000 ("CDMA"), and you limit yourself to US carriers and, at the time, Australian, Korean, and Japanese operators (that's three operators BTW, it's not like there was more than one IS-2000 carrier in each country.)
Choose GSM/UMTS, and you have the world at your feet.
And building a phone on two platforms isn't an option either if you actually want to define something that's more than a "Enter digits and hit SEND" type device.
I find it hard enough believing they've signed up to five years of exclusive, locked, phones for Cingular, but that they ever courted Verizon doesn't pass the smell test. About the best I can imagine is that Verizon also passed on it because Jobs also insisted on a network technology change that, despite Vodafone's interest, Verizon was very unwilling to make.
Don't under estimate importance of coverage
From what I've read I would buy the iPhone tomorrow but there is no way in hell I would drop Verizon to get it. Verizon is in a league all its own when it comes to cell coverage and voice network bandwidth. In every major metropolitan area I've been in my Verizon service has always been better than when I had Cingular or T-Mobile. Verizon leads in nearly every satisfaction survey when it comes to coverage and voice quality. That said, Verizon is one greedy company and I hate how they hamstring features to squeeze some extra revenue out of their customers. Still, at the end of the day the network reins supreme and this where Apple is making a huge mistake.
From what I've read I would buy the iPhone tomorrow but there is no way in hell I would drop Verizon to get it. Verizon is in a league all its own when it comes to cell coverage and voice network bandwidth. In every major metropolitan area I've been in my Verizon service has always been better than when I had Cingular or T-Mobile. Verizon leads in nearly every satisfaction survey when it comes to coverage and voice quality. That said, Verizon is one greedy company and I hate how they hamstring features to squeeze some extra revenue out of their customers. Still, at the end of the day the network reins supreme and this where Apple is making a huge mistake.
Good. I'm glad they didn't go with Verizon. They probably wanted to brand the hell out of iPhone including their lame ass red theme, not to mention crippling the bluetooth and everything else about it.
And I really don't see how a device like the iPhone could work on a CDMA network. Last time I checked you couldn't be on a call and use data at the same time. Also, if you were using data your calls would goto voicemail. Is this still the case with EV-DO? It is on my EV-DO phone on sprint. I think being able to use voice and data at the same time is a huge feature.
Finally, for everyone who complains about lack of coverage, 'business features', etc etc. Apple makes products for consumers. Have you seen a mac ad lately? Obviously they aren't going after the business crowd. I for one don't need exchange push email, I don't need coverage in caves, and I don't need the high prices that go along with that.
And I really don't see how a device like the iPhone could work on a CDMA network. Last time I checked you couldn't be on a call and use data at the same time. Also, if you were using data your calls would goto voicemail. Is this still the case with EV-DO? It is on my EV-DO phone on sprint. I think being able to use voice and data at the same time is a huge feature.
Finally, for everyone who complains about lack of coverage, 'business features', etc etc. Apple makes products for consumers. Have you seen a mac ad lately? Obviously they aren't going after the business crowd. I for one don't need exchange push email, I don't need coverage in caves, and I don't need the high prices that go along with that.
much telcom history confusion
Look at the wikipedia entry for cingular
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingular
The at&t of today is not the AT&T of yesterday. The new at&t is just the old SBC telecom company with the at&t logo on it since they bought AT&T. Cingular is owned by SBC (now the new at&t) and BellSouth (now the new at&t) so it made sense to rename cingular to at&t so the company would all be under one umbrella name. It's simple branding.
Look at the wikipedia entry for cingular
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cingular
The at&t of today is not the AT&T of yesterday. The new at&t is just the old SBC telecom company with the at&t logo on it since they bought AT&T. Cingular is owned by SBC (now the new at&t) and BellSouth (now the new at&t) so it made sense to rename cingular to at&t so the company would all be under one umbrella name. It's simple branding.
Slightly disagree. I current have two voice lines with Verizon, one of them being connected to a Treo 700w with a PDA data plan. Additionally I have a mobile PC CARD with Verizon. I spend about $270 a month with Verizon and I never come close to touching the minute cap. I am the kind of customer Verizon wants. Now, once the iphone is 3G, I'm gone.
I'm actually suprised that Cingular is going to go back to AT&T for nomenclature. AT&T had a horrible reputation, (at least in Michigan and surrounding areas), while Cingluar has a markedly better one. Well, try and explain to anyone the telcom name changes and mergers and your head will spin.
While I don't think this rumor is true, it is very feasible. CDMA is old and pretty scarce on a global stage, and it just seems unlike Apple to adopt such a thing.
Of course, Verizon's size and decent reception reputation could also have a lot to do with Apple considering CDMA, if they did. Either way, I think its good for Apple that they didn't let the iPhone become a "Verizon Product" like many phones are seen. Verizon destroys their phones to force you to pay for their gouged services, and Apple wanted none of that (plus a cut). Either way, I say given the American carriers, Cingluar was the best choice if you were Apple. And since the iPhone is pretty much intact with all you would expect, we made out OK too.
While I don't think this rumor is true, it is very feasible. CDMA is old and pretty scarce on a global stage, and it just seems unlike Apple to adopt such a thing.
Of course, Verizon's size and decent reception reputation could also have a lot to do with Apple considering CDMA, if they did. Either way, I think its good for Apple that they didn't let the iPhone become a "Verizon Product" like many phones are seen. Verizon destroys their phones to force you to pay for their gouged services, and Apple wanted none of that (plus a cut). Either way, I say given the American carriers, Cingluar was the best choice if you were Apple. And since the iPhone is pretty much intact with all you would expect, we made out OK too.
It is strange seeing an Apple fan bash another company for making things easier for the common user. While the Verizon UI is not the greatest, it makes it easy for the common user out there to get a different phone from another manufacturer and still have a UI that they are familiar with. Verizon wants an Apple like control over user experience on a cell phone. So its natural that they bumped heads on this issue. With that said, its doubtful that contributed to this rumor. Verizon sells phones with an unaltered Windows Mobile interface. So the iPhone would have been left alone.
Why I think the iPhone may not work well...All the griping on here is about geek stuff that 90% or more of a cell phone user base even cares about. CDMA or GSM? They dont have a clue. Is it "global", again they dont care, they want it to work where they live. My family recently got a Mac. They have no clue what make OS X what it is... as far as they are concerned it just works.
I am very tech knowledgeable, but with phones I draw the line. I want one thing from a phone.... I want it to be just that.... a phone. My Verizon RAZR does everything i need... it makes calls, clearly. As a little extra, iSync puts my calendars, alarms and contacts on my phone with bluetooth. Crippled for a geek? Sure. For me and most others? Not really.
My last comment... I never thought I'd see the day that AT&T would be credited for GOOD customer service.
This is a typical arguement from those who still don't understand why the iPod was a success and why the iPhone will likely be successful.
How many features a device has is only a small part of the big picture: it's the UI and the total value of the device that sets it apart from what's currently on the market.
What good does it do to have a device loaded with features if the UI sucks?
This is one of those myths that I thought was debunked years ago, but... I guess the fight against the damage Qualcomm's army of shills did still needs to be fought.
GSM has a maximum range from the tower of about 25 miles (35km), that means you can get away with towers spaced around 50 miles apart, if you're cheap.
In practice, neither GSM nor IS-95 have any real advantages over one another in terms of range. An ordinary IS-95 phone isn't going to transmit more than 25 miles away, because the 1-2W maximum power for a handset just doesn't go that far, especially with no clear line-of-sight. The theoretical range of IS-95 is only achievable with a high-wattage carphone. When was the last time you saw one of those?
The US's population metrics actually mirror those of Finland, which isn't exactly known as a GSM blackspot. And as a former Sprint PCS user, and a current T-Mobile user, I can assure you Sprint's (IS-95) coverage here in typical Anytown-USA Florida is no better than (GSM) T-Mobile's.
Except the cool feature for random access voice mail (which also appears as a list on your phone) only works with cingular because it's a dynamic application working with the phone.
You can bet more integration like this will be in the shipping product, making unlocking it kinda pointless.
$400 - $500 is not that steep for the phone itself as a product.
Check out the unlocked high end phones or smart phones and they all range between $400 and $800.
Now the key is the contract elelment that you are tied into. Now if you don't like Cingular - Tough - no amount of justification or whining is going to make a jot of difference. I think the price point with contract is not cheap by any means but sits reasonably well within the market they are hitting. Ipods are not cheap in comparison to other players (generally have been) and they do rely on their design and market position and reputation.
You dont like Cingular you dont have an iPhone (unless of course it is possible to unlock but I think Apple will have a way of verifying against carrier to work).
The UK market is still unknown but I expect they will sign up with a company with good European coverage and tie the phone to that carrier. Cingular have had to do work on their side of things to allow the phone to work as apple want and Uk providers will have to provide the same guarantees and features.
We will find out soon enough.
Check out the unlocked high end phones or smart phones and they all range between $400 and $800.
Now the key is the contract elelment that you are tied into. Now if you don't like Cingular - Tough - no amount of justification or whining is going to make a jot of difference. I think the price point with contract is not cheap by any means but sits reasonably well within the market they are hitting. Ipods are not cheap in comparison to other players (generally have been) and they do rely on their design and market position and reputation.
You dont like Cingular you dont have an iPhone (unless of course it is possible to unlock but I think Apple will have a way of verifying against carrier to work).
The UK market is still unknown but I expect they will sign up with a company with good European coverage and tie the phone to that carrier. Cingular have had to do work on their side of things to allow the phone to work as apple want and Uk providers will have to provide the same guarantees and features.
We will find out soon enough.
$500 is a lot for any cell phone any way you look at it. Most people buy cell phones along with the plan (most of the time when you sign up for 2 years you get the actual phone for free or for $50, if Apple and Cingular woudl offer the iPhone for lets say $100 with a contract then there would be no discussion but $500 with a contract seems like a lot to me). Apple wants to sell around 10 million iPhones in one year, and I ask the question who the hell will buy it at that price point? iPhone for average consumer is too expensive and no matter how cool it is price will play an important factor. Business users don't want to spend extra money on not needed features such as built in cameras or MP3 players.
People bring up the iPod that it also was supposed to fail, the difference is that iPod is basically priced right there with all the other MP3 players, not that much more expensive. Besides, not everything Apple does is a guaranteed automatic success, they have failed miserably with a lot of revolutionary products before.
Living in the UK, I can't understand the difference between Cingular / Verizon / Sprint / etc. What I do know is, on the day the iPhone was announced, on MacRumors all I saw were you guys in the US saying what a tragedy it was that it was exclusive to Cingular...
Now, the majority of the posts in this thread are... "I'm switching to Cingular asap", "Verizon is rubbish, Cingular here I come", etc.
What's going on?
Has Cingular got better in two weeks? Were you just annoyed that it was a locked phone (understandable)? Or are all the Cingular bashers staying away from this thread? Explain please...
Nothing, it's just different people. Plus, in the UK you're used to acceptable pre-paid systems and relatively low contracts (though I've noticed 18mo contracts are beginning to creep in.) In the US, they make it fairly hard to get an acceptable plan that doesn't involve signing up for two, or even three, years at a time.
So people have various reasons to like carrier A and "hate" carrier B:
- In their area, A's great and B sucks, at least in their limited experience. (Remember, "in their area" could mean "In my kitchen, and in the cubicle where I work")
- They signed up to carrier A, and wouldn't admit it's a bad idea if carrier A invoked the "You must get rid of your landline and only browse the Internet on our network, and then at 1c/kb" clause in the contract they never noticed before.
- They simply like carrier A more, and it's carrier B that has the iPhone.
- They signed up to carrier B, had a minor issue that customer service turned into a major one, and now hate carrier B with a passion.
The fact that national carriers in the US are a relatively new phenomenom also doesn't help. There are swathes of the country unserved by anyone who uses your carrier's technology, and most US carriers have to rely upon roaming agreements with each other to acheive anything approximating to the type of coverage you might be used to with Vodafone or Orange. This is in part because of the lack of standardization, and in part because the FCC, for reasons I still think are absurd to this day, thinks it's a great idea to auction spectrum in clusters of counties, rather than nationwide. So very often, a "national" carrier can't even offer service where they want.
Essentially, US operators require long contracts. They all have huge coverage holes. The decision not to regulate, while having some good points, means operators are free to be power-crazy, and that seems to be a common fault of the IS-95/2000 operators, particularly Verizon. There are more reasons to hate an operator, and plenty of people who'll get very fanboyish over them because one operator happens to fit them at that precise moment in time.
Screw VZW, Cingular, AT&T...
(I'm sure it has been asked) Does anyone here think Apple will eventually, after contracts expire w/ Cingular, go their own route? Meaning, act as service provider, offering total control of the user experience? That maybe this whole Cingular thing is just to gain experience in a complex industry they have zero experience with?
I obviously don't fully understand the layers of complexity of doing such, but when I think back to that data center acquisition... just makes me wonder.
Data center + iPhone rumors had me SO hoping Apple would at least go the MVNO route. For now, I'll gladly kick VZW to the curb and go Cingular (as much as I loath VZW, they're all the same - they all cripple features, they all drop calls, they all have bloated service fees and they all offer up unacceptable customer service/experience) just to start using the phone. Hopefully, one day it will be all Apple.
(I'm sure it has been asked) Does anyone here think Apple will eventually, after contracts expire w/ Cingular, go their own route? Meaning, act as service provider, offering total control of the user experience? That maybe this whole Cingular thing is just to gain experience in a complex industry they have zero experience with?
I obviously don't fully understand the layers of complexity of doing such, but when I think back to that data center acquisition... just makes me wonder.
Data center + iPhone rumors had me SO hoping Apple would at least go the MVNO route. For now, I'll gladly kick VZW to the curb and go Cingular (as much as I loath VZW, they're all the same - they all cripple features, they all drop calls, they all have bloated service fees and they all offer up unacceptable customer service/experience) just to start using the phone. Hopefully, one day it will be all Apple.