I also find the idea VW appeal to conservatives amusing when the brand goes hand in hand with hippies.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Volkswagen CEO: We're 'Not Afraid' of a Potential 'Apple Car'
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I also find the idea VW appeal to conservatives amusing when the brand goes hand in hand with hippies.
Nope - VW is the core brand - and most of the orbiting brands are the same - audi - is the best example for conservative - remember Audi 80.
yes, vw is very strong in china - but that will change as soon china has their EV companies up - which is already manifesting - and china will bow to apple - if apple will ever come with mass-EV
It is a conservative stereotype - all mentioned brands are conservative - trust me - i am from Europe! Although „conservative“ in a broader sense - like apple - am not native English speaker!
I do not entirely agree with your comment.
The VAG group is conservative in general terms, but each brand in the group has its own type of customer.
Skoda is the most rational brand, simple cars, with correct qualities, and very practical, giving a lot of interior space in a compact size.
Seat, in terms of brand positioning is similar to Skoda, but more passionate, has much more attractive and "sensual" designs. Just look at the new Leon compared to the Golf; the current Ibiza, compared to the VW Polo or Skoda Fabia. They are more youthful cars and very fun to drive, they are almost always the reference in this sense.
Cupra, Seat's sub-brand, is looking for something more differentiating, through a mid-premium brand, something similar to what Mazda is looking for with its latest models. The Formentor is a very sexy SUV, and soon they will launch the Cupra Born, a sporty version of the VW ID.3 and the Cupra Tavascan, a Coupe SUV of the ID.4, with a rumored battery up to 94 kWh.
VW, which for me was a benchmark, for all the range of models it had, and the quality of its products, in the last 3 years has been disappointing me more and more. The T-Roc, T-Cross, Golf, etc. do not have the quality expected from Volkswagen in Europe (I know that in other parts of the world, as in the US, the image of Volkswagen is not the same as in Europe, also because the cars, even if they were the same, were not made in the same way in Europe and US). But they are sober models, with a good quality (now more than good, correct, since there are Seat and Skoda models that seem to me better inside than VW models).
The ID.3 and ID.4 models, although they also have this reduction in materials, and do not look as mid-premium as a few years ago, I do not see them as bad, taking into account the technology they have, besides that at an aesthetic level, both look very attractive to me.
Audi, is the premium brand (I mention again, maybe in the US it is perceived a little differently and is seen behind Lexus, BMW or Mercedes-Benz), but it has also lost its main features, especially at the interior quality level, again. The A1 and A3 with respect to previous generations are much worse. The design, formerly bland, continuist and boring, is now a parody of its old design, and I am not attracted at all to that line they are taking now.
Little more can be said about Porsche. Regarding this brand I can not be objective, as it is one of my favorite car brands. Great cars with timeless designs, sporty and stylish, myths on wheels.
What I want to say is that the VAG Group is obviously conservative, but it covers a very large audience of conservative people. In the end, that's what all brands are looking for, to get as many people as possible to buy their cars.
The PSA Group (now Stellantis) and the Renault-Nissan Alliance do something similar. They have a large number of brands to reach the largest number of people interested in their products.
Stellantis now has: Fiat EU, Fiat LATAM, Citroën, Opel, Peugeot, DS, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Maserati. And as they have organized it, they are looking for something similar to what the VAG group has done.
Fiat and Citroën as entry-level brands. Fiat in Europe will pull the 500 (its myth) and Citroën as a youthful and colorful entry brand.
Opel and Peugeot as generalist brands. Opel as a sober and more elegant German brand and Peugeot as a brand that bets on a more transgressive design.
DS, Alfa Romeo and Lancia as premium brands. DS as a symbol of French luxury, Lancia as a symbol of Italian luxury and Alfa Romeo as a sporty brand with Italian design.
Maserati as the luxury brand. Italian Porsche.
Jeep the luxury SUV brand, Land Rover type.
Chrysler and Dodge... I don't know how they will end up, I see a future for Dodge, but for Chrysler... maybe as rebranded Peugeot models or something similar.
The Renault-Nissan Alliance does something similar, on a smaller scale, since they don't have a large number of brands like the previous two.
Dacia is the entry-level brand.
Renault is the generalist, which they want to position a bit above, with the new R5 and the Megane as a pillar.
Alpine, the luxury and sporty brand.
Lada will be a kind of Dacia in markets where Dacia does not sell.
Nissan will sell successful SUVs in the EU, such as the Qashqai (Rogue Sport), but will have less notoriety than before. It will focus mainly on the US and Japan.
Mitsubishi will focus on selling in Asia and Africa, where it sells well, gradually withdrawing from Europe and the US.
In summary, after this long commentary, all brands want to copy the VAG group's strategy, perhaps because it has worked successfully for VAG (despite the internal conflicts between the brands).
Can Apple make a better EV than Tesla? Probably, but that likely isn't a good enough reason to enter the market.
Every market Apple has entered has been because Apple has been able to introduce something distinctly new and unique. Could it be autonomous driving? It's possible that Apple's Go/No Go decision comes to down to how soon they think autonomous driving becomes a reality.
Every market Apple has entered has been because Apple has been able to introduce something distinctly new and unique. Could it be autonomous driving? It's possible that Apple's Go/No Go decision comes to down to how soon they think autonomous driving becomes a reality.
So what car brands aren’t conservative, I’m also from Europe so I’m keen to find out.
I'd say Rimac, Koenigsegg, Bugatti, McLaren for sure. Maybe could add in Ferrari and Lamborghini. They aren't cheap though.
Well, it's not valued as a car company, they still make little to no money from selling cars. Look at the discrepancy between Tesla Stock and Bonds. IIRC investors value the stock of Tesla 7-8 times higher than Volkswagen, while Investors also value any Tesla bond 4 times worse.
I guess you like to write long statements and miss the point.
i said conservative in a broader sense like apple - Porsche is another level
vw AG is a conservative company from top to down - with the ID they try to change.
Audi is for the agressive conservative
vw for the middle class hat on board guy
skoda is for the people who cant or wont afford vw
seat is for the southern hemisphere.
they have to fight against each other but VW has always to be the core brand and winner - skoda learned that fast!
Sandy would say BULL
apple can NEVER excel TESLA - its a mindset thing!
apple can become a decent competitor to the rest of the market. But Timmy has no vision- and all the fanboys here must finally admit that project TITAN is project „i don’t know what we should do with cars“
All brands are conservative, excluding exclusive brands. They all seek to appeal to a generality of people.
Skoda is at odds with Volkswagen in Europe, because although at the beginning it should be the "accessible" of the group, besides being accessible, in many cases, it makes better cars than Volkswagen, in quality, materials, interiors, space and price, of course.
Seat does not consider that it sells only in the south, Seat sells well in Netherlands, UK, Switzerland (here more the Cupra versions or now, the Cupra brand).
And BMW is another conservative brand. It sells to as many people as possible (more than Audi). That it has extravagant designs, unlike Audi or Mercedes-Benz, does not make it different. BMW and Mercedes-Benz compete face to face, making very similar models (coupe sedans, coupe SUVs, MPVs, etc.). So, no, I still disagree with you, all car brands seek to capture the largest number of customers, and for that, they have to be conservative (some with flashier designs, others being extravagant, but ultimately, they all seek the same thing).
Thank you for that wonderfully written response. If I wanted your opinion I’d ask for it.
Hope your day is as pleasant as you are!
pretty rough to be honest - lots of work, i didn’t wanna offend you - its not you - its me
In my opinion, Apple should focus on e-VTOL electric drones, cars,taxis ,personal platforms & vans and anti-collision software .Why get stuck with vehicles that can only run on surfaces & roads ? That is prehistoric , dinosaur mentality.
The next frontier is gravity & holograms, they are on the edge of the lubricant/ glue next to cosmic Energy & cosmic Matter , magnetism management , the real Deal.
SpaceX, Tesla teams are doing just that in their own amazing ways , how to use gravity .
In my opinion, Pr.Biden should watch Elon Musk & Pr.Putin talks closely & get invited later into the party , since Russia is just a huge natural resources battery , like the USA. That's why it's very troubling the way YouTube ,Twitter ,Facebook ,Reddit are deleting /shadow banning posts to POTUS & suspending bloggers, they even closed the WH comment lines , like they want Pr.Biden only talking to their Oligarchs ? Disconnected from the People ? Very strange.
The next frontier is gravity & holograms, they are on the edge of the lubricant/ glue next to cosmic Energy & cosmic Matter , magnetism management , the real Deal.
SpaceX, Tesla teams are doing just that in their own amazing ways , how to use gravity .
In my opinion, Pr.Biden should watch Elon Musk & Pr.Putin talks closely & get invited later into the party , since Russia is just a huge natural resources battery , like the USA. That's why it's very troubling the way YouTube ,Twitter ,Facebook ,Reddit are deleting /shadow banning posts to POTUS & suspending bloggers, they even closed the WH comment lines , like they want Pr.Biden only talking to their Oligarchs ? Disconnected from the People ? Very strange.
Well, the Apple car might look like a stationary phone booth and connect you to anywhere via VR. lol. All I see is autos being more autonomous and the having the gvt take advantage “like it wasn’t intended lol” to exert more granular control over people’s movements. It’s not hard to see where it’s going...
They also started off with electrifying an existing car (Lotus Elise) and used that to launch into their own products. Doing so they hired, acquired, purchased, adapted pre-existing people and technologies to get where they are today. The company is still quite young, and they have some growing pains to resolve.
Tesla’s biggest issue now is overall poor long term reliability and recently new customer satisfaction. I am hoping they can work through it all, and I am hoping Apple can also learn from their mistakes and not repeat them. Cascade failures of multiple systems due to a single component failing is absolutely terrible. If such a component can also impact / take offline automated driving functions, we have to factor in injuries and loss of life as being a possible side-effect.
Apple entering the market will be welcomed, and I look forward to seeing what happens, however they can’t take their previous arrogance (“Just Avoid holding it that way”) Along with them if issues like Tesla’s arise within an Apple car. But, it seems like Cook’s era of Apple is a bit more responsive to customer feedback & with extending support.
Time will tell.
Haha yeah. MacRumors is basically a hardwired Apple Corporation feedback forum. You know full well the execs keep up the with the forums. They probably post under alias as well.
AP has always been a separate SOC. So you shouldn’t lose automated driving functionality. Shoot they let you restart the MCU while the vehicle is in motion (Long term this probably isn’t smart).
Fair point, I can also restart MMI in my Audi while driving, and for the most part Driver assist keeps working. That said, it is important that they firewall and maintain separation of critical systems even when they do need to be interlinked.
Hazzard lights coming on when Airbags deploy is a great feature to alert other drivers, however, you never want to hit the Hazzard light button and deploy your own airbags.
You sound like a critical thinker, so riddle us poor fanboys this:
How do we know what Apple knows and believes about cars when they have never once said a single word about it?
Timmy's vision with the Apple Watch and AirPods, for example, has been pretty great.
Also, what can we ever know about anyone's mindset beyond our own beliefs?
The fact is that every single industry Apple has entered over the past 20 years, it has come to dominate.
Please tell me what this fanboy is missing?
I was just talking to one of my coworkers about that this morning. If VW brought out and e-Passat, or BMW an e-3er I'd be all over either one.If you gave me two electric cars, one from Apple and one from VW, I’d opt for the VW because I trust their automotive expertise from past ownership and experience. If you gave me two smartphones, one from Apple and one made by VW, have a guess which one I’d go for?
In my opinion, a car is not an electronic device.
A car has to have a platform (from the comments of some people, I think they think that a Ford Focus and a Ford Mustang have the same platform); this platform has to comply with standards of rigidity, torsion, safety, and many other aspects, which are very demanding, very technical and complex. That is why Apple is looking for partners to provide them with the platform (Hyundai with the eGMP, Nissan with the CMF-EV, and each brand has its own, and each automotive group usually has more than one), so they do not have to make it themselves.
You have to take into account the software in terms of battery power management. Tesla and Hyundai are in a very good position, as they are the best in this regard, but the rest of the manufacturers are struggling to improve in this regard, especially the German ones. Apple overnight, cannot do this without a defined product, without testing and development. A car has a development of between 3-4 years, including design, interior, technical features, testing in real conditions, to see if the car has crickets, mechanical failures, and the deterioration of the different elements of the interior. Here, on the other hand, is Tesla's big problem, they don't test the cars in the real world until they start mass producing it, and they trust all those tests to a computer... and that's why they have so many quality and fit failures.
Apple is developing autonomous driving software. And it will be exceptional, but the rest are doing exactly the same. They are all going in the same direction. In addition, we will have to take into account the legislations of the different states, as many are very reluctant to this type of technology due to ethical issues, and it must be regulated in a very exhaustive way. So Apple may bring out a 100% autonomous car, but it can only be sold in very few countries, whose legislations are more flexible for this type of vehicle.
There's the SAT issue. Cars fail, and a car with so much electronics will fail for anything. Where are you going to take that car when it fails? Apple Stores don't seem like appropriate places to take your car when it fails, basically because most of them are inside a shopping mall or pedestrian areas in the center of cities.
Building a car is so complex that Apple cannot do it from scratch, with a platform exclusively developed by themselves, they need a third party, who has enough experience in vehicle development. Apple would put in its design and software, which, if it comes out, no one doubts that it will be extraordinary, but it will not be a car 100% made by them. And what can differentiate it, when it comes out, will not be either, because they are all developing the same as Apple in terms of autonomous driving.
In terms of batteries and their autonomy management, if they bet on batteries that are not composed of lithium ions, it can make a difference, but by then, many other brands will have solid-state batteries, leaving behind the current technology.
What I think is that Apple would have to do a lot to stand out in this market, and honestly, considering that I move partly in this automotive world, and I see what is coming out in the next few years by different automotive groups, I do not think that Apple could bring out would be disruptive in the market, which does not mean it would be bad, or worse than other products, but I do not think it would revolutionize this market, since everyone is fighting to get the same thing.
Last edited: