Waiting for Broadwell MBP Thread

[mcarling]

Is Apple really going to switch to only offering an iGPU solution?

With 100% certainty, yes. The only question is when.

It seems likely that the next chassis design change will probably come whenever Apple is confident enough in the iGPUs from Intel to drop dGPU support altogether and design the motherboard layout and

I agree up to this point, however ...

Skylake seems likely to be the earliest that might happen.

I believe Skylake is probably the latest that Apple might drop the last discrete GPUs from the MacBook Pro line. It could very well happen with Broadwell. I would advise anyone who wants a new MBP with a discrete GPU to buy now.

Should I wait until the new model comes out or should I go ahead and get the newest version now?

Now is an excellent time to buy a MacBook Pro.

I really doubt Skylake is coming next year. Intel will want to milk Broadwell as long as possible to recoup the costs of the delays. Intel will probably release Skylake around a year after the launch of Broadwell. Ex. Broadwell Mid-2015, Skylake Mid-2016.

Skylake builds on the tech of Broadwell - delays of Broadwell mean obligatory delays of Skylake for tech reasons, nevermind commercial.

There is some confusion here about Intel's tick-tock cycle. Broadwell is a die shrink using the same architecture as Haswell. That means using revised Haswell designs and a new process. The problem is an applied physics problem: getting everything to work right at the transistor/gate level on a smaller scale. Skylake is an new architecture to be built using the same process as Broadwell. It's more of a jigsaw puzzle type problem than an applied physics problem. So Skylake will be milking virtually all of the investment in Broadwell.

Work on the process proceeds in parallel to work on the architecture so, hypothetically, if the Broadwell process were delayed until the Skylake architecture were ready, then there would be no reason to ever produce Broadwell chips -- technical or commercial.

It is entirely possible that Intel could introduce Skylake chips only three or four months after Broadwell chips, though I don't expect the cycle to be that tight. If Apple were, hypothetically, to introduce Broadwell MBPs in February 2015 and then Intel were to make Skylake chips available in the summer of 2015, I would expect Apple to wait until September or October to introduce new MBPs.

 

[i1280]

Sorry for the ignorance...what's an iGPU?

 

[Meyer Lansky]

Any speculation on whether the Broadwell MBP will be accompanied by a different form factor than that of last few releases? I recently ordered the current generation 2.8GHz/1TB/750M MBP (wish I had discovered this forum before then ), but come to think of it, I wish it were a little thinner. If it's going to come in a thinner case soon, I figure I might as well just wait a couple months. Thanks in advance!

 

[mcarling]

what's an iGPU?

GPU is Graphics Processing Unit. They can be integrated (with the CPU) or discrete, hence iGPU or dGPU. One of Intel's main objectives currently is to improve their iGPUs to kill off the dGPU market, first with mobile and then desktop parts. The mobile dGPU market is nearly dead. The desktop dGPU market still has a few more years.

Any speculation on whether the Broadwell MBP will be accompanied by a different form factor than that of last few releases?

I do not expect any change of form factor for the MBP in 2015, but I cannot rule out the possibility that Apple might use the reduced power consumption of the Broadwell chips to thin the battery and the laptop. Intel will be packing more transistors onto each die, primarily to increase iGPU performance and also for other improvements, keeping overall power consumption similar to that of Haswell parts. I do think the 13" cMBP will be discontinued.

Trying to think of a possible reason to wait for Broadwell, the best reason I can think of is that I expect the Broadwell MBPs to support DisplayPort 1.3 which will work with 5K (5120x2880) displays, in addition to the 4K displays which work with the Haswell MBPs.

 

[Meyer Lansky]

I do not expect any change of form factor for the MBP in 2015, but I cannot rule out the possibility that Apple might use the reduced power consumption of the Broadwell chips to thin the battery and the laptop. Intel will be packing more transistors onto each die, primarily to increase iGPU performance and also for other improvements, keeping overall power consumption similar to that of Haswell parts. I do think the 13" cMBP will be discontinued.

Trying to think of a possible reason to wait for Broadwell, the best reason I can think of is that I expect the Broadwell MBPs to support DisplayPort 1.3 which will work with 5K (5120x2880) displays, in addition to the 4K displays which work with the Haswell MBPs.

Awesome, I appreciate your opinion. I might keep my order after all!

 

[AidenL]

Now is an excellent time to buy a MacBook Pro.

Im general though, I mean, will new prices rise, or is it just a good, solid, multi function machine as it stands.

What would I lose out on by not waiting?

 

[mcarling]

Im general though, I mean, will new prices rise, or is it just a good, solid, multi function machine as it stands.

What would I lose out on by not waiting?

There was just a round of $200 price cuts, so prices are unlikely to drop much more in the next year or two. I do not expect any upward price pressure.

Obviously, there will be some improvements in next year's Broadwell MBP compared to the current Haswell MBP. As I wrote above, I suspect the biggest difference will probably be support for 5K monitors with DisplayPort 1.3. There will also be marginal improvements in performance and probably battery life, but I don't expect anything dramatic. DDR4, Thunderbolt 3, etc. will not be supported yet with Broadwell. Don't expect 32GB of DRAM or more than 1TB of flash storage. Unless one is itching for a 5K external monitor or dual 4K monitor setup, the Broadwell MBPs are unlikely to be exciting.

The current MBPs are a great deal. I would buy one now if I didn't already have an early 2013 MBP which serves all my needs.

 

[AidenL]

There was just a round of $200 price cuts, so prices are unlikely to drop much more in the next year or two. I do not expect any upward price pressure.

Obviously, there will be some improvements in next year's Broadwell MBP compared to the current Haswell MBP. As I wrote above, I suspect the biggest difference will probably be support for 5K monitors with DisplayPort 1.3. There will also be marginal improvements in performance and probably battery life, but I don't expect anything dramatic. DDR4, Thunderbolt 3, etc. will not be supported yet with Broadwell. Don't expect 32GB of DRAM or more than 1TB of flash storage. Unless one is itching for a 5K external monitor or dual 4K monitor setup, the Broadwell MBPs are unlikely to be exciting.

The current MBPs are a great deal. I would buy one now if I didn't already have an early 2013 MBP which serves all my needs.

Thank you - might be time to move for me then - though Christmas was when i was thinking of treating myself.....

 

[mikeo007]

The mobile dGPU market is nearly dead.

True

The desktop dGPU market still has a few more years.

Not a snowballs chance in hell unless they come up with some propriety breakthrough in computing. Desktops don't suffer from the same thermal issues as laptops, so there's very little advantage to going without a dGPU. Especially with the PC gaming market ramping up.

 

[thebrobrah]

As integrated GPUs become more mainstream, AMD and NVIDIA lose out on their low and mid level sales

Going forward, AMD and NVIDIA will likely only be able to sell their high end GPUs

But at what price and even then they will undoubtedly lose market share immediately and moreso over time. imo.

So either the high end gets priced out for most people or it becomes the new mainstream and the GPU producers have to live with the significantly reduced revenue.

 

[mikeo007]

As integrated GPUs become more mainstream, AMD and NVIDIA lose out on their low and mid level sales



Going forward, AMD and NVIDIA will likely only be able to sell their high end GPUs



But at what price and even then they will undoubtedly lose market share immediately and moreso over time. imo.



So either the high end gets priced out for most people or it becomes the new mainstream and the GPU producers have to live with the significantly reduced revenue.

iGPUs have always been mainstream. Most SOCs have come with them for years now. They don't even come close to the performance of even a low end dGPU. Generally, someone who wants a dGPU knows that they want one and someone who doesn't want one is already buying the cheap integrated-only options that are out there.

 

[thebrobrah]

i mean, when igps match mid level dgpu ...or 'good enough', which is coming either by broadwell or skylake

 

[mikeo007]

And I'm saying they already are "good enough"for anyone that's going to use them. They are not, and will not be good enough for someone who needs a dedicated card.

 

[thebrobrah]

alright then, so what will AMD and NVIDIA do as publicly traded companies trying to make as much money as possible?

The mid level GPU will be dead..how will they price their gpus with dimishing returns on still high development costs (mid level was bread and butter) NVIDIA is already trying to branch out with their alternative products because it is happening right now and their bottom line is in trouble

Meanwhile, integrated will further catch up

 

[mikeo007]

alright then, so what will AMD and NVIDIA do as publicly traded companies trying to make as much money as possible?

The mid level GPU will be dead..how will they price their gpus with dimishing returns on still high development costs (mid level was bread and butter) NVIDIA is already trying to branch out with their alternative products because it is happening right now and their bottom line is in trouble

Meanwhile, integrated will further catch up

Why will it be dead? Even low end dGPUs are exceptionally more powerful than top end integrated. So what will change now that hasn't already changed years ago? Intel got serious about graphics in the sandy bridge era, but all that did was remove nvidias ability to create their own integrated solutions and rely on dedicated cards for their GPU division.

What do you propose those companies do? Close up shop because Intel keeps doing the same thing they've been doing for years?

 

[thebrobrah]

its dead because why would anyone who has an intel cpu ever consider buying a discrete gpu which will only perform slightly better than the integrated on chip

the igpus are getting better at a faster rate than the dedicated graphics are (which are being produced on older process nodes)

AMD/NV will still be in business as they will always have top performance...its just likely to cost the consumer quite a bit more, as they wont have the low/mid to sustain their growth/development

 

[mikeo007]

its dead because why would anyone who has an intel cpu ever consider buying a discrete gpu which will only perform slightly better than the integrated on chip

By that logic, why would anyone buy any of the Intel skus beyond their base offering? They only perform slightly better as you move up, why would anyone consider that? People have different needs, that's why there are so many options.

And once again to reiterate, why hasn't your scenario already happened if you're so confident about it? We've had several generations of decent iGPUS now with no sign of the dedicated market disappearing.

 

[thebrobrah]

we've had 2 generations of rapidly improving igps

none that as of yet could be considered adequate...its coming though

people would consider those intels skus as part of purchasing a new device (laptop)

again, it hasnt happened because the current igps are not good enough yet...they are decent right now at 720p

 

[mikeo007]

we've had 2 generations of rapidly improving igps

none that as of yet could be considered adequate...its coming though

people would consider those intels skus as part of purchasing a new device (laptop)

again, it hasnt happened because the current igps are not good enough yet...they are decent right now at 720p

Decent at what? Certainly not gaming. Video playback? They've been doing 1080p hardware decode for generations now. iGPUs are improving no doubt, but dGPUs aren't standing still. Improvements in other areas like compute performance are things that iGPUs can't touch at this point. Branching out into other usage scenarios is the key to nVidia and AMDs survival. All their GPU products will reap the benefit of research into any of those areas.

Anyway, I wasn't intending to start yet another debate about iGPU vs dGPU, especially on the topic of desktop GPUs in a thread talking about laptops. Take it to Anand or somewhere if you want a decent debate on the topic. It's been ongoing over there for about 4 years and counting. Lots of good arguments for both sides.

 

[thebrobrah]

agreed, although it may be relevant to 'will apple drop dgpus in mpb lines

i do enjoy discussing the subject, another time though

 

[Quu]

When do you think we'll see broadwell mbp's ? WWDC 2015?

 

[i1280]

So I'm debating about a new MBP loaded or wait until themes release...

 

[MacSumo]

The next rMBP 15" with Broadwell will be released July, and skylake will be Q1 2015.

 

[mario-64]

The next rMBP 15" with Broadwell will be released July, and skylake will be Q1 2015.

I think you meant Q1 2016 for Skylake

 

[MacSumo]

I think you meant Q1 2016 for Skylake

Yes!