Waiting for Broadwell MBP Thread

[MacDevMike]

First, the next MBPs (with Broadwell) will not be launched before summer 2015 because that is when Intel will release the CPUs. It seems unlikely that the 2015 MBPs will feature an external redesign. The high-end Broadwell MBPs might include a discrete GPU or they might not include one. It will probably depend on whether or not the Intel integrated GPU can handle an external 5K display.

I think you are looking at February for the Broadwell chips, and likely we will see MBP's with Broadwell CPU's in March/April. Apple is going to be tapping their toe for a more substantial refresh to drive sales. Not sure if they will go with Maxwell, or decide to move towards the Radeon R9s like they did with the new Retina iMac. After the Mac Pro's went D300/500/700 ATI, and the iMac went ATI I am wondering if Apple is looking at more of a vendor change. I don't think you are going to see the dGPU's going away in the 15" MBP's completely for another two years, as we will likely continue to see pixel density increase as time continues.

I also think we might see a 4k 17" MBP next fall. I have my fingers crossed on that one.

 

[mcarling]

I also think we might see a 4k 17" MBP next fall. I have my fingers crossed on that one.

I'm with you on the 17" rMBP with a 4K display. Such a beast would need a discrete GPU with Broadwell and maybe even with Skylake.

I think you are looking at February for the Broadwell chips, and likely we will see MBP's with Broadwell CPU's in March/April.

Sorry to disappoint you, but Intel will not ship Broadwell CPUs suitable for the MBP before Q2 2015, which means summer is the earliest we'll see Broadwell MBPs.

I don't think you are going to see the dGPU's going away in the 15" MBP's completely for another two years, as we will likely continue to see pixel density increase as time continues.

It will be years before we can expect to see another pixel density increase for the 15" MBP. The increase to the Retina display two years ago was huge and will suffice for years to come.

 

[prospervic]

Sorry to disappoint you, but Intel will not ship Broadwell CPUs suitable for the MBP before Q2 2015, which means summer is the earliest we'll see Broadwell MBPs.

Source for this, please? (Many sites are reporting early 2015 for MBP "suitable" Broadwell chips).

 

[prospervic]

I think you are looking at February for the Broadwell chips, and likely we will see MBP's with Broadwell CPU's in March/April. Apple is going to be tapping their toe for a more substantial refresh to drive sales.

Even better news: Intel is reportedly planning to introduce the Broadwell U chips (the one's suitable for high-end laptops) at CES 2015 in January. http://news.softpedia.com/news/14nm...ary-2015-Fourteen-Notebook-Chips-460389.shtml

 

[mcarling]

Even better news: Intel is reportedly planning to introduce the Broadwell U chips (the one's suitable for high-end laptops) at CES 2015 in January. http://news.softpedia.com/news/14nm...ary-2015-Fourteen-Notebook-Chips-460389.shtml

According to the link above, the Broadwell U chips are all 15W TDP chips suitable for a MacBook Air, not a MacBook Pro. Intel may release some 28W Broadwell U chips in Q1, suitable for the 13" MacBook Pro, but 35-45W Broadwell chips, suitable for the 15" MacBook Pro, will not be released before Q2. Tick rollouts are necessarily phased in more slowly than Tock rollouts because it takes more than a few months for Intel to switch most of their fabs from (using the current example) the 22nm process to the 14nm process.

 

[Jayayess1190]

The Broadwell U chips are all 15W TDP chips suitable for a MacBook Air, not a MacBook Pro. Intel may release some 28W Broadwell chips in Q1, suitable for the 13" MacBook Pro, but 35-45W Broadwell chips, suitable for the 15" MacBook Pro, will not be released before Q2. Tick rollouts are necessarily phased in more slowly than Tock rollouts because it takes more than a few months for Intel to switch most of their fabs from (using the current example) the 22nm process to the 14nm process.

I have seen on other sites that the ones with Iris 6100 graphics are actually 28W (the i3-5157U, i5-5257U, 5287U, i7-5557U).

 

[mcarling]

I have seen on other sites that the ones with Iris 6100 graphics are actually 28W (the i3-5157U, i5-5257U, 5287U, i7-5557U).

Could be. I was going by the link provided by prospervic. It would make sense that the Broadwell CPUs with Iris 6100 graphics would be 28W because all the Haswell CPUs with Iris 5100 graphics are 28W.

 

[royalgfx1]

Have any of yall had to buy a laptop now, with the intent of selling it when the Broadwells come out? If so, how much money would you be losing?

 

[emporiky]

According to the link above, the Broadwell U chips are all 15W TDP chips suitable for a MacBook Air, not a MacBook Pro. Intel may release some 28W Broadwell U chips in Q1, suitable for the 13" MacBook Pro, but 35-45W Broadwell chips, suitable for the 15" MacBook Pro, will not be released before Q2. Tick rollouts are necessarily phased in more slowly than Tock rollouts because it takes more than a few months for Intel to switch most of their fabs from (using the current example) the 22nm process to the 14nm process.

So does that mean that we can expect the Broadwell MBP yearly 2015? I was wondering, because I want to buy one before April 2015, when I graduate and will not be able to claim education pricing :/

 

[mcarling]

So does that mean that we can expect the Broadwell MBP yearly 2015? I was wondering, because I want to buy one before April 2015, when I graduate and will not be able to claim education pricing :/

Do you want a 13" or 15" MBP? I guess Apple will probably release them together, but it will probably be possible for Apple to release the 13" Broadwell MBP before the 15" Broadwell MBP. I would be stunned if Apple can manage to release the 15" Broadwell MBP before May 2015.

 

[emporiky]

Do you want a 13" or 15" MBP? I guess Apple will probably release them together, but it will probably be possible for Apple to release the 13" Broadwell MBP before the 15" Broadwell MBP. I would be stunned if Apple can manage to release the 15" Broadwell MBP before May 2015.

I am planing to use the 13'' model. But they normally reveal new products in the June keynote, therefore it seems unlikely that they will release them earlier.

 

[Gildarts]

What are you guys's thoughts on Apple skipping Broadwell altogether?

I mean, it doesn't make sense right? Releasing Broadwell MacBooks in June when Skylake will be available in the fall? Intel f*cked up the schedule.

More over, Broadwell is just a tick. The innovation that Skylake, the tock, will bring seems to give good reason to skip out on Broadwell altogether.

There's a thread on this here:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1804923/

 

[mcarling]

What are you guys's thoughts on Apple skipping Broadwell altogether?

I mean, it doesn't make sense right? Releasing Broadwell MacBooks in June when Skylake will be available in the fall? Intel f*cked up the schedule.

More over, Broadwell is just a tick. The innovation that Skylake, the tock, will bring seems to give good reason to skip out on Broadwell altogether.

Just a Tick? I do not share your opinion that Tocks are more important than Ticks. It is the Ticks which allow the doubling of transistors. Tocks are just a redesign to incorporate new features.

 

[Gildarts]

Just a Tick? I do not share your opinion that Tocks are more important than Ticks. It is the Ticks which allow the doubling of transistors. Tocks are just a redesign to incorporate new features.

So would you prefer Broadwell over Skylake? Missing out on Thunderbolt 3, WiGig and many other new features? Would you say ticks are equally as important?

 

[mcarling]

So would you prefer Broadwell over Skylake? Missing out on Thunderbolt 3, WiGig and many other new features?

Let's put it another way: I prefer Broadwell over Haswell and I would prefer Cannonlake over Skylake. My current machine has an Ivy Bridge CPU. I prefer to buy on the Tick cycle when the design bugs have all been worked out. Thunderbolt 3 does not require any support in the CPU. It could be implemented (at significantly higher cost) with a Core2Duo.

Would you say ticks are equally as important?

I think the Ticks are vastly more important than the Tocks. Virtually all performance gains come from the Ticks. New features come from the Tocks. With very few exceptions, new features at the CPU level merely facilitate rather than enable new features at the user level.

If we could only have one Tock every ten years with Ticks every other year, most users wouldn't notice. If we could only have one Tick every ten years, with Tocks every other year, virtually all users would notice.

 

[Gildarts]

Let's put it another way: I prefer Broadwell over Haswell and I would prefer Cannonlake over Skylake. My current machine has an Ivy Bridge CPU. I prefer to buy on the Tick cycle when the design bugs have all been worked out. Thunderbolt 3 does not require any support in the CPU. It could be implemented (at significantly higher cost) with a Core2Duo.


I think the Ticks are vastly more important than the Tocks. Virtually all performance gains come from the Ticks. New features come from the Tocks. With very few exceptions, new features at the CPU level merely facilitate rather than enable new features at the user level.

If we could only have one Tock every ten years with Ticks every other year, most users wouldn't notice. If we could only have one Tick every ten years, with Tocks every other year, virtually all users would notice.

Quite interesting. I have an Ivy Bridge MBA. I do remember Sandy Bridge having a lot of problems at the time which didn't appear in IB (at least not that I know of). I have not heard of serious issues with Haswell which seemed like a smooth roll out.

I think it matters where you start. If you start with a tock it make sense to upgrade to a tock as the tick of your tock is just incremental to the new tock over your tock. I realize this sentence might be highly confusing but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

For example. If you have a Sandy Bridge MB it's no use upgrading to Ivy Bridge. You might be better off upgrading to Haswell. Ofcourse this doesn't exclude upgrading to Broadwell but if you can wait that long why not opt for Skylake?

I still don't see the Advantage of Broadwell over Skylake (and I'm guessing there are none). And I'm not hearing you say that you'd prefer Broadwell over Skylake. I don't think Broadwell will bring significant battery life improvements.

Are you looking to upgrade soon? If so, which new processor family are you going/waiting for? Broadwell, Skylake, Cannonlake?

 

[mcarling]

Quite interesting. I have an Ivy Bridge MBA. I do remember Sandy Bridge having a lot of problems at the time which didn't appear in IB (at least not that I know of). I have not heard of serious issues with Haswell which seemed like a smooth roll out.

I think it matters where you start. If you start with a tock you should upgrade to a tock as the tick on your tock is just incremental to the new tock over your tock. I realize this sentence might be highly confusing but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.

For example. If you have a Sandy Bridge MB it's no use upgrading to Ivy Bridge. You might be better off upgrading to Haswell. Ofcourse this doesn't exclude upgrading to Broadwell but if you can wait that long why not opt for Skylake?

I still don't see the Advantage of Broadwell over Skylake (and I'm guessing there are none). And I'm not hearing you say that you'd prefer Broadwell over Skylake. I don't think Broadwell will bring significant battery life improvements.

Are you looking to upgrade soon? If so, which new processor family are you going/waiting for? Broadwell, Skylake, Cannonlake?

The only advantage of Broadwell over Skylake is that the microarchitecture used in Broadwell will have had all its bugs worked out but, for end users, I don't think that's a reason to forgo the new features in Skylake. It might be a good reason for applications with life-or-death consequences.

I think end users shouldn't worry about CPU features (Tock cycles) and should worry instead about the features that Apple delivers. Those tend to come with the Tock cycles (because it's easier and less expensive for Apple to let Intel do the heavy lifting) but it is not rare for Apple to introduce important new features with the Tick cycle. One possibility for the Broadwell MBP is Displayport 1.3 and Thunderbolt 3 support (probably only in the 15" model, if at all). It would be easier for Apple to wait for CPU support for these with Skylake, but Apple might go ahead and provide that support with discrete chips. I think that's more likely for the upcoming Haswell-E Mac Pro, but also could happen with the Broadwell MBP.

I do expect Broadwell to bring both measurable battery life improvements and measurable benchmark improvements. Whether I buy a Broadwell MBP or not will depend on whether or not it support Displayport 1.3 because I really want a 5K monitor.

 

[Gildarts]

So you're not interested to wait for Skylake as long as Broadwell supports displayport 1.3 and the new MBP can push 5k displays?

 

[mcarling]

So you're not interested to wait for Skylake as long as Broadwell supports displayport 1.3 and the new MBP can push 5k displays?

Correct. I will replace my early-2013 15" rMBP with the first MBP to support Displayport 1.3 and able to drive a 5K monitor. I don't know whether that will be Broadwell or Skylake.

Despite formerly working for Intel as a programmer responsible for the circuit simulation software the CPU designers used to verify their designs, I try to make my purchase decisions based on end-user features, not geeky CPU-level features.

 

[Gildarts]

I'm impressed that you're willing to skip WiGig and whatever else comes with Skylake. Just hearing about that made me cross of a Broadwell upgrade. For me that is a serious end-user feature.

So you don't think Apple will be skipping Broadwell? Because intel has messed up the release schedule.. There are now two chipfamilies coming in the same year (2015, Broadwell & Skylake).

 

[mcarling]

I'm impressed that you're willing to skip WiGig and whatever else comes with Skylake. Just hearing about that made me cross of a Broadwell upgrade. For me that is a serious end-user feature.

WiGig will be nice someday, but I'm limited mostly by Internet bandwidth, not LAN bandwidth. I'm still on 802.11n, not 802.11ac. I do not rule out buying a Broadwell MBP and then replacing it with a Skylake MBP if the latter will offer a new feature that I really want.

So you don't think Apple will be skipping Broadwell? Because intel has messed up the release schedule.. There are now two chipfamilies coming in the same year (2015, Broadwell & Skylake).

The 14nm process turned out to be more difficult than expected. However, the steppings for Broadwell are ready, so Intel will roll out Broadwell chips as fast as they can rebuild their fabs for the 14nm process. The steppings for Skylake are not ready yet. It is possible that some of the steppings for Skylake might be validated while the 14nm rollout is still underway, in which case Intel might skip some Broadwell parts and go directly to Skylake, but I don't expect that. It will be easy to make both Broadwell and Skylake parts in the same fab. I'm not aware of any technical or business reason why Skylake couldn't follow Broadwell by four to six months.

 

[Gildarts]

It will be easy to make both Broadwell and Skylake parts in the same fab. I'm not aware of any technical or business reason why Skylake couldn't follow Broadwell by four to six months.

Seems to me that wifi ac is just matter of getting a new router? If you're already spending cash on a MBP + 5K monitor setup, what's 200-300 more?

While I'm definitely no chip expert, a business reason for why Skylake couldn't follow Broadwell by four to six months is that any MacBooks with Broadwell wouldn't sell if the majority of the Apple community knew that Skylake would follow in 4 months. (iPad 3 disaster)

Also, as far as I can tell (which is from 2012), Apple's processors in their MacBooks have been on par in the same year every year.

To announce Broadwell MBA in june and to follow up in fall with Skylake in the fall seems very unlike Apple. So it will be either Broadwell or Skylake in 2015.

I'm hoping for the latter.

 

[mcarling]

Seems to me that wifi ac is just matter of getting a new router? If you're already spending cash on a MBP + 5K monitor setup, what's 200-300 more?

I don't think I would notice the difference. 802.11n has no difficulty keeping up with my Internet connection.

While I'm definitely no chip expert, a business reason for why Skylake couldn't follow Broadwell by four to six months is that any MacBooks with Broadwell wouldn't sell if the majority of the Apple community knew that Skylake would follow in 4 months. (iPad 3 disaster)

Also, as far as I can tell (which is from 2012), Apple's processors in their MacBooks have been on par in the same year every year.

To announce Broadwell MBA in june and to follow up in fall with Skylake in the fall seems very unlike Apple. So it will be either Broadwell or Skylake in 2015.

That's a business constraint on Apple (if at all), not on Intel. Note that Apple do not always release new Macs promptly as new generation Intel chips become available. Last week's Mac mini release is a good example.

 

[Gildarts]

Which relates to my original question: So you don't think Apple will be skipping Broadwell?

I'm watching intel's keynote from Computex 2014. Skaugen (ceo) clearly states that the generation after Broadwell will do away with wires. Sounds like pretty interesting stuff to me. There have also been some patents from apple crossing the net about Wireless Charging.

Anyway. Thanks for all the info. You taught me some stuff!

 

[mcarling]

Which relates to my original question: So you don't think Apple will be skipping Broadwell?

It's certainly possible that Apple might skip Broadwell for one or more Mac lines, but I don't believe Apple would skip Broadwell completely, across all Mac lines.