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Waiting for Broadwell MBP Thread
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Thanks a lot
One question please..what about the image retention/ghosting problem? Does it still exist in the mid 2014 rMbp models?still waiting for Intel to get Broadwell out the door. I was definitely thinking of picking up a Broadwell 13 rMBP to replace my aging 2009 MBP 13, but given the Broadwell delays, I'm thinking of waiting a little longer for the Skylake model for the following reasons:
- Thunderbolt 3.0 (DisplayPort 1.3 + HDMI 2.0 - 4k @ 60Hz)
- Improved GPU
- Possible DDR4 memory in 13 in
- Possible quad-core in 13 in
but given the preliminary configuration at 28 Watt TDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#Configurations
I'm not as hopeful about the last two.. may have to go with 15 inch to get quad core (in 2015/2016, why is quad-core not mainstream?)
- Thunderbolt 3.0 (DisplayPort 1.3 + HDMI 2.0 - 4k @ 60Hz)
- Improved GPU
- Possible DDR4 memory in 13 in
- Possible quad-core in 13 in
but given the preliminary configuration at 28 Watt TDP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#Configurations
I'm not as hopeful about the last two.. may have to go with 15 inch to get quad core (in 2015/2016, why is quad-core not mainstream?)
Thank you mcarling and others for your replies--much appreciate your insights.
As I mentioned in my earlier post above, I have been waiting since last spring for the Broadwell update, but given the issues Intel has had manufacturing the new chip and constant release pushbacks, I have growing concern about Broadwell's potential reliability issues.
Like some earlier posters have also said, ideally I wish there was a quad core 13" MBP. As a pilot, I would love the extra cores to run a flight simulator (at a higher performance level) . . . and for my pictures and especially videos I take-- these extra cores would be great for faster rendering. Given the maxed-out 13" MBP I am considering (3.0 GHz i7, 16GB RAM, 512GB ROM) is only about $250 less than the quad core 15" with discrete graphics card (also 16GB RAM, 512 GB ROM) it seemed like the 15" might be a better investment . . . but as I will carry it with me everyday and use it for work . . . after much struggle, I realize the 13" form factor makes more sense and (arguably) looks a little more "professional" to be carrying around to work with clients. My thinking is that maybe sometime in the future I could also buy a more powerful (than 15" MBP) iMac. I got to thinking that the 15" MBP for my needs would be a bit of a compromise machine--not as elegantly portable as a 13" and not as powerful as an iMac . . . and because I don't really need the "power" aspect while I *travel/commute* (unlike pro videographers), the best solution might be 2 separate computers (desktop in the future). Make sense?
As relates to Broadwell issue though, my point is, given the Broadwell processor's smaller size, lower energy and thus cooler running temps, I had hoped that maybe Broadwell might allow for a 13" quad core processor . . . but from what i have read here and elsewhere, this sounds unlikely.
Given that Broadwell is essentially a scaled down, more energy efficient Haswell . . . while the next Broadwell update might allow for a smaller/lighter case . . . slightly more battery time . . . slightly more powerful screen (more energy available given lower CPU demand) . . . and of course equipment updates (trackpad? screen? etc.) . . . it doesn't sound like there will be a major performance upgrade. I mean, while these *potential* upgrades might be enticing, the current Haswell mid-2014 MBP is already outstanding as is so these would just be nice enhancements. The more significant upgrade appears to be Skylake which would be coming out "fairly soon" in relation to Broadwell's release as a result of all of Broadwell's manufacturing problem delays.
So my thinking is (as mcarling confirmed), the current MBP iteration (screen, logic board/mother board, keyboard, trackpad, etc) has gone through several refreshes, as has the current generation of Haswell processors, and now they all seem to be very dependable (true?). Broadwell may come out anytime within the next 3 quarters . . . and given this late release date the much more significant update Skylake will essentially be waiting in the wings for release . . . at that point, it would be tough not to want to wait for Skyake. There are always potential uncertainties with any new processor's dependability, but given the greater upside of Skylake over Broadwell (coupled with Broadwell's manufacturing issues, this makes Skylake all the more appealing). (I mean if one waits for Broadwell, one most certainly will then feel compelled to maybe wait for the greater upgrade of Skylake. And if Broadwell comes out in early to mid 2015, how likely is it that Apple would then release a Skylake MBP within 6 months of that? So my thinking is, given the known dependability of Haswell vs unknown dependability with marginal improvements of Broadwell . . . if waiting for Broadwell, why not wait for much greater improvements potentially in Skylake. Realistically then, this would likely mean waiting for well over a year from now). So, given all these considerations, if one needs a new laptop in the near future, especially if dependability is a significant concern . . . the current Haswell MBP seems like the smart way to go.
Thoughts?
You're welcome.
Broadwell CPUs are likely to be at least as reliable as 2nd generation Haswell CPUs because they all share the same micro-architecture, the bugs in which only decrease with new revisions. Skylake is a new micro-architecture, which will have a new set of bugs, most or all of which will be worked around in the compilers and operating systems. If dependability is the primary concern, I would buy on the Tick cycle (such as Broadwell) and skip early Tock cycles parts (such as Skylake). 2nd generation Tock cycle parts such as the current Haswell CPUs should be safe.
It looks like the Iris Pro variants of Skylake will support 5K displays at 60Hz using Displayport 1.3 over Thunderbolt 3.
There's another (very) important factor to consider here: newer Retina Displays. The iPhone 6/6 Plus, iPad Air 2 and Retina iMac introduced Apple's next generation Retina Display technology, which features higher resolution (along with thinner layers) than the previous version. If you've seen the iMac up close, you know there's a difference -- brighter and more vivid than the rMBP.
It stands to reason that Apple will make this a feature of the Broadwell rMBP, as it's the next product in line for the upgrade.
I can deal with not having the latest/fastest processor, or the biggest/baddest graphics card. But I would be really bummed-out if I purchased the current Haswell rMBP, only to have the Broadwell version come out in a few months with a new, much improved Retina Display.
It stands to reason that Apple will make this a feature of the Broadwell rMBP, as it's the next product in line for the upgrade.
I can deal with not having the latest/fastest processor, or the biggest/baddest graphics card. But I would be really bummed-out if I purchased the current Haswell rMBP, only to have the Broadwell version come out in a few months with a new, much improved Retina Display.
Thanks again mcarling.
When you say . . . "Broadwell CPUs are likely to be at least as reliable as 2nd generation Haswell CPUs" . . . although both processors possess relatively the same micro-architecture, the fabrication issues Intel has had reducing the chip down to 14NM--causes me to pause just slightly . . . it suggests this is somewhat new territory for Intel, that it has a learning curve which has not been done easily or without issue.
Do you find any flaws in my earlier long winded thinking above believing it best to buy the Haswell mid-2014 MBP now rather than wait for the Broadwell . . . or that the current refreshed Haswell edition should be equally, if not more reliable than the new reduced process Broadwell? Would you buy now?
Thanks!
CPU bugs get introduced with each new micro-architecture i.e. with each Tock cycle. Then, with later releases, the bugs get fixed. By the time of the Tick processors, the bugs have usually all been fixed. It's really that simple.
Thanks, it's just that in this case it seems Intel is struggling more than usual with the die shrink process and this gives pause to some . . .
As an unimportant aside . . . I understand Intel's "Tick-Tock" model, where every
Tock" represents a new micro architecture and every "Tick" a shrinking (die shrink) of that same micro architecture.
The one thing that seems counterintuitive is why they labeled the die shrink "Tick" when the new micro architecture logically comes first in the process. (Recognizing that another way of looking at it might be that old chip class--"Tick" precedes new chip class--"Tock"). Any way, not important just one of those things . . .
As an unimportant aside . . . I understand Intel's "Tick-Tock" model, where every
Tock" represents a new micro architecture and every "Tick" a shrinking (die shrink) of that same micro architecture.
The one thing that seems counterintuitive is why they labeled the die shrink "Tick" when the new micro architecture logically comes first in the process. (Recognizing that another way of looking at it might be that old chip class--"Tick" precedes new chip class--"Tock"). Any way, not important just one of those things . . .
Or they could make it look invisible ! which can be summoned on a magic spell/mantra !! How about that ?
Are you guys Nuts ?? Touch Id on Mac I guess that day Johnny Ivy and rest of the Apple Technical Team should quit Apple and should start their quest in search of the sage way of life !!
What Nonsense ?? Touch Id on Mac it even sounds rubbish !! forget implementing it !! Apple in so fierce competition of Laptop Touch screens has not even brought the Touch screens in the Mac Line Up, how do you guys think they will implement the touch Id on the Mac !!
You were saying?
Source: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014...-fingerprint-reader-right-into-its-trackpads/
It can be done. Synaptics has done it. Apple could do it better. The only reason the current Touch ID on the phones has the metal ring is to complete the circuit so that it knows your finger has touched the pad and is ready to be read.
Since the touchpad already has that feature built in they can get rid of the ring and unify the Touch ID with the appearance of the Touchpad making it invisible to the eye.
Die shrinks do not introduce bugs. Intel are struggling with yields, as with every die shrink.
I don't see any reason why either must come logically before the other. When Intel first separated the introduction of new micro-architectures from the introduction of die shrinks, they first did a die shrink. Before that, every new micro-architecture was introduced together with a die shrink, but most die shrinks used a continuation of the existing micro-architecture. I don't see anything illogical about starting with a die shrink.
Please read again carefully to what I said, I never said it was not possible from a engineering point of view. I said from a design perspective Apple doesn't sound too much in favour of touch based notebooks, a classic example to it it has been now what 2-3 years that the touch based laptops are out there in the Market has Apple still introduced it in their line of Notebooks ? No ! A lot of things are possible. the point is Apple has its own philosophy on how things should be. and I dont see that happening atleast for a couple of years atleast for 5 years or so If I read the situation correctly.
We've had fingerprint readers on notebooks for over a decade. It's not new. And neither was the Smart Phone when the iPhone came out. Neither was the Watch when the Apple Watch was announced.
The point is the technology is there if they want to do it. Someone else has now beaten them to the punch in integrating it with the Touch Pad. Just as Samsung beat Apple to the smartwatch with the Samsung Gear but that doesn't mean Apple won't do it.
I think they will. There isn't much else for them to add to the notebooks at this point. The iPad got Touch ID, iPods will get it. It is conceivable Notebooks will too.
Remember Apple Pay isn't just a point of sales system it's also a device integrated payment system similar to Paypal enabling you to make purchases within apps. The Mac has an App Store and in-app purchasing. It's a natural fit.
And by the way, touch screens on a Mac do not make sense. That is why Apple doesn't implement it. It's a **** experience on Windows unless you use Metro which is the equivalent of an iPad experience. Apple has no reason to take the user interface of iOS and shoehorn it on to Macs to deliver touch screen Macs because the iPad is selling. Microsoft has to do Metro + Touch Screens because they have no iPad killer.
TouchID = Makes sense. Touch Screens = No sense.
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Does anyone have any sense of whether it's worth buying a new 15" MBP now or waiting for the update?
If it's 3 months, I can imagine waiting. 6, probably not. I'm pretty interested in being able to bootcamp and run games, which is part of my disappointment at the current MBP's 750M. On the other hand, my 2009 MBP is pretty old at this point.
If it's 3 months, I can imagine waiting. 6, probably not. I'm pretty interested in being able to bootcamp and run games, which is part of my disappointment at the current MBP's 750M. On the other hand, my 2009 MBP is pretty old at this point.
Doesn't look before October or November 2015 that a New updated rMBP 15 inch would come out ! Even I am waiting for that !!
Are you thinking November 2015 for Broadwell or Skylake?
While it is difficult to know when Apple would actually incorporate the new chips once available, the most recent reports suggest the MBP 13"/15" chips for Broadwell would be available in 1st-2nd Quarter of 2015 and Skylake in 4th Quarter. Of course Broadwell dates have seemed to change every month or so for over a year now. Frustrating.
I too have been waiting as greater battery life and improved GPU would be a great help to me for my use . . . especially in a 13" (I played with idea of getting a 15" as it is within $250 of a 13" with 3.0Hz i7/16GB/512GB, but the 13" is really much more convenient for my daily portability needs). However, I am close to desperate in terms of requiring a newer laptop and close to saying "enough". (I have an important licensing exam coming up in 2.5 months and part of the exam is on computer. I have been borrowing a family members late 2012 13" MBP . . . great little machine . . . and told I can continue to use it through exam, however I feel a bit guilty).
Thoughts on Broadwell/Skylake dates and wait time?
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Now is an excellent time to buy a new MacBook Pro. Broadwell MacBook Pro availability is probably six to nine months away.
What reports are those? The 15W Broadwell parts that could go into a MacBook Air are not even shipping yet, though probably will do so in Q1 2015. I would be stunned if the 37W Broadwell parts ship before Q2 or Q3 2015. While some Skylake parts will surely ship in late 2016, I'm not at all confident they will include the 37W parts.
Hi, BROADWELL is "Tock" aka Dieshrink
and dieshrink is same architecture only on smaller NM so Broadwell not comes with new bugs. New bugs come allways with the new architecture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock
So if someone wait on new architecture and want new architecture with fixed bugs etc., so is better wait on dieshrink Skylake what is Cannonlake but I know is it many time into future
... I wait on dieshrink haswell -> Broadwell ... 14nm is holy jump
(haswell refresh isn't tock but only +100mhz boost and used in this year for people what want new cpu, because intel know predict that this year not release broadwell for hard work with 14nm, but still is haswell refresh same as haswell, both are tick .. tock is aka broadwell is at the door)
and dieshrink is same architecture only on smaller NM so Broadwell not comes with new bugs. New bugs come allways with the new architecture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock
So if someone wait on new architecture and want new architecture with fixed bugs etc., so is better wait on dieshrink Skylake what is Cannonlake but I know is it many time into future
... I wait on dieshrink haswell -> Broadwell ... 14nm is holy jump
(haswell refresh isn't tock but only +100mhz boost and used in this year for people what want new cpu, because intel know predict that this year not release broadwell for hard work with 14nm, but still is haswell refresh same as haswell, both are tick .. tock is aka broadwell is at the door)
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I am saying October-2015 for just the Broadwell Release, Had there been any possibility of Broadwell release in the First Quarter of 2015 it would have been already there in the Rumour Mill churning out those rumour news, But no one is reporting anything. Makes me very strongly believe the earliest could be June-2015 but definitely does not sound and look before June-2015 ideally October-2015.
I just bought a 2013 rMBP and couldn't be happier. It's really all I need. Not doing anything processor intensive or anything. maybe some light gaming. matter of fact, I would have picked up the current air if it didn't feel so outdated.
The only thing that would make me regret my purchase is if they release an updated MBA. All the rumors point to a major redesign and new hardware features like a retina display. A MBA with retina, thinner, lighter, quieter and even longer battery life would be a home run.
The only thing that would make me regret my purchase is if they release an updated MBA. All the rumors point to a major redesign and new hardware features like a retina display. A MBA with retina, thinner, lighter, quieter and even longer battery life would be a home run.