Waiting for Broadwell MBP Thread

[827538]

There was a considerable performance gap between integrated GPUs and discrete GPUs a few years ago but, with Broadwell and Skylake, that gap is nearly closed. Apple got rid of the dreaded discrete GPU from most of the MBP line a few years ago. This year or next year, it's time for Apple to complete the job.

iGPU's are miles off dGPU's, yes they are far closer than they were. But it's still no contest. Especially with the new Maxwell architecture, it gave such a huge boost in the performance per watt category. Add in dedicated VRAM with it's huge memory bandwidth and it's night and day, especially with the latest games and high resolutions and textures.

Personally I'd be really really happy to see an updated 15" with Skylake and a GTX 950/960, would be a day one upgrade for me. Those new Maxwell chips are quite something.

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I've seen more evidence of Skylake coming out than Broadwell-H.

Agreed, Skylake is not years away it's just a couple months. 2H 2015 is less than 2 months away. I'm more surprised as to why they bothered upgrading the 13" than why they didn't upgrade the 15".

I've been waiting to upgrade my 15" since the day I bought it - not because there's anything wrong with it. I just can't wait to get my hands on some Maxwell silicon .

 

[chelch]

Personally I'd be really really happy to see an updated 15" with Skylake and a GTX 950/960, would be a day one upgrade for me. Those new Maxwell chips are quite something.

Yes. They're also much bigger and have a much higher TDP. 2 things that go against them.*

GT 750m 118mm^2 50W
GTX 950m 148mm^2 75W

The GTX 850m had a TDP of 45W and they didn't upgrade probably because the die is 148mm^2.

If they continue to offer a dGPU option, it will probably be the GT 750m in the refurbished section.

* EDIT: 2 things that go against them in Cupertino.

 

[Teuthos]

Yes. They're also much bigger and have a much higher TDP. 2 things that go against them.*

GT 750m 118mm^2 50W
GTX 950m 148mm^2 75W

The GTX 850m had a TDP of 45W and they didn't upgrade probably because the die is 148mm^2.

If they continue to offer a dGPU option, it will probably be the GT 750m in the refurbished section.

* EDIT: 2 things that go against them in Cupertino.

That's not how it works. A GTX 850M does indeed have a TDP of 40-45W, which is LESS than the 750M, while being far more powerful. A GTX 950M is the exact same graphics card as a GTX 850M but with a very slight overclock; it has a TDP of around 45W - still less than a 750M.

The 75W TDP you're referring to is for the DESKTOP GTX 950.

Furthermore, whereas high-end integrated graphics such as the Iris Pro are probably going to see a 20% performance jump from Haswell to Broadwell (2013 to 2015), judging on the 20% more EUs on the Iris Pro 6200, mid-range dedicated graphics from 700-series Kepler to 900-series Maxwell (also 2013 to 2015) has seen a performance jump of more than 60% while reducing their power consumption.

Thus despite the gains made with Haswell's Iris graphics, integrated graphics have actually fallen further behind in recent years due to the incredibly efficient Maxwell architecture. And though less power is consumed overall with integrated graphics, the fan speed and CPU temperature is far higher when using integrated graphics compared to discrete graphics due to all of the processing taking place in one spot.

 

[827538]

Yes. They're also much bigger and have a much higher TDP. 2 things that go against them.*

GT 750m 118mm^2 50W
GTX 950m 148mm^2 75W

The GTX 850m had a TDP of 45W and they didn't upgrade probably because the die is 148mm^2.

If they continue to offer a dGPU option, it will probably be the GT 750m in the refurbished section.

* EDIT: 2 things that go against them in Cupertino.

What? A GTX 950M does not have a TDP of 75W. It's essentially a GTX 850M which has a TDP of 45W which is less than a 750M - 50W.

So what you would get is a GPU that is at minimum 50% more powerful while consuming less power.

Please don't spout utter rubbish on the forums. Combine this with a Broadwell or even Skylake chip and you will have a CPU+GPU combo that consumes less power, produces less heat while giving far better performance. Broadwell a iGPU can't touch Maxwell, so I'd be surprised if they ditched the dGPU option.

 

[Macula]

Given that I tend to upgrade only once every 5-6 years, I am very reluctant to buy a Mac with integrated graphics. I regretted it dearly with my otherwise fantastic Core2Due blackbook (2008) and its integrated X3100 graphics--- a machine that, following my upgrades to an SSD and 6GB Ram, would have been perfectly adequate for my workflow if it could only run the latest OSX. It is a scandalous shame to have to shell out nearly $2,500 for a Mac notebook with dedicated graphics, but we are locked down into the Apple ecosystem for better or worse, and I am inclined to skip the new 13 incher in favor of the next 15" model.

 

[iKrivetko]

Given that I tend to upgrade only once every 5-6 years, I am very reluctant to buy a Mac with integrated graphics. I regretted it dearly with my otherwise fantastic Core2Due blackbook (2008) and its integrated X3100 graphics--- a machine that, following my upgrades to an SSD and 6GB Ram, would have been perfectly adequate for my workflow if it could only run the latest OSX. It is a scandalous shame to have to shell out nearly $2,500 for a Mac notebook with dedicated graphics, but we are locked down into the Apple ecosystem for better or worse, and I am inclined to skip the new 13 incher in favor of the next 15" model.

You can't compare the X3100 and the Iris Pro though. They aren't in the same league, and by far.

 

[Macula]

You can't compare the X3100 and the Iris Pro though. They aren't in the same league, and by far.

Of course you cannot, but at the time I bought the machine in 2008, the X3100 was also way ahead of its predecessor (the GMA950). I agree that technological forecasting is not so simplistic, and perhaps the gap between dedicated and built-in graphics is steadily shrinking (is it?). But as I said, I am reluctant to invest USD1600-2200 on a machine with built-in graphics, while sustaining reasonable hope that it will still be relevant in 5 years.

 

[mcarling]

I am reluctant to invest USD1600-2200 on a machine with built-in graphics, while sustaining reasonable hope that it will still be relevant in 5 years.

I am reluctant to invest USD1600-2200 in a computer with a discrete GPU because I cannot sustain a reasonable expectation it would run at all in 5 years.

 

[augustya]

I am reluctant to invest USD1600-2200 in a computer with a discrete GPU because I cannot sustain a reasonable hope expectation it would run at all in 5 years.

lol ! Well said !! Anyone need say more ??

 

[Macula]

Maybe I am an outlier but all my machines have lasted significantly more than 5 years of professional use.

 

[MareLuce]

I'm looking forward to buying my first MacBook with next rev of the 15".

Am currently mostly happy with my Lenovo W540 laptop in terms of performance, but I'd like to give the MacBook a try.

i.e., this purchase is a "want", not a need.

Why wait and not buy now?
1) this purchase is a "want", not a need.
2) Given the "want" part, I can't get excited about current MBP 15" enough to buy

I'll remain on the sidelines until Apple does something compelling enough with their next 15" (or 16"?) to get me excited about the purchase. I follow this thread off and on, but I hope the changes will be something beyond a processor update.

I'm optimistic that will happen given Apple didn't touch it at all with the recent 13" update.

All that aside, the recent exchange about dGPUs not working in 5 years was confusing. Why would that happen?

 

[Teuthos]

Apple has some bad history with dGPUs and people have gotten the idea that all Apple dGPUs are unreliable. However, the whole "unreliability" thing is completely overblown. Aside from several models (the last of which was 4 years ago), the failure rates are very low - otherwise we would've heard a lot more about them.

I've compiled a set of pros and cons for dGPUs, in an attempt to summarize the argument:

DGPU PROS:
+ Much higher performance; looking at Unigine Heaven benchmarks the Iris Pro gets 20.8, a GT 750M gets 27.8, and a GTX 850M (which has lower power consumption than the 750M) gets 41.8 - two times higher performance than the Iris.
+ It has been claimed that iGPUs are catching up - no they're not. From 2013 to 2015, Iris Pro performance will increase by perhaps 20% (Broadwell Iris Pro has 20% more EUs), while from 2013 to 2015 mid-range dedicated graphics has increased in performance by more than 50%. Thus, at least for now, iGPUs are falling behind.
+ Less heat on the CPU. With a dGPU, you are creating a lot more heat in total when running intensive tasks, but it is in two different parts of the computer and thus can be cooled more efficiently and quietly. I've noticed that gaming on the iGPU results in MUCH higher fan speeds (3000 - 5000 rpm) and CPU temperatures (92-96C), than when gaming on the dGPU (2000 - 3000 rpm, 85-90C CPU, 70-80C GPU). And in regards to reliability - aren't lower temperatures better?
+ Less fan noise, as stated above. Which is what Apple wants so much that they've sacrificed almost everything to get - slowly ramping fan speeds, tolerance of high (90+) CPU temperatures ...
+ Less throttling. Extra heat on the CPU of course means that the CPU is more likely to throttle.


DGPU CONS:
- Higher power consumption. Heat might be more spread out, but by using a dGPU you are using up more electricity. This means that when doing intensive tasks your battery life will be somewhat shorter.
- Shorter battery life when running programs that are not optimised properly. Some programs trigger the dGPU and that lowers battery life; you can prevent this with a small, free program like gfxCardStatus though.
- 4 years ago there were some reliability issues with Apple's dGPU machines.

 

[Macula]

Excellent post, thanks.

Truly disappointing—if smart from a marketing perspective—that a dGPU-equipped 13-incher is unavailable.

 

[ZBoater]

Excellent post, thanks.

Truly disappointing—if smart from a marketing perspective—that a dGPU-equipped 13-incher is unavailable.

Integrated graphics have come a long way in recent years. They are nothing to be disappointed in. Yes, there are some intense applications they are not well suite for, but that list keeps getting smaller and smaller.

 

[Jayayess1190]

Intel showcase wire-free laptops

This is coming with Skylake. Will Apple include it?

 

[Pahanda]

Intel showcase wire-free laptops

This is coming with Skylake. Will Apple include it?

Don't think so. At least not for the first Skylake MPBs.
My guess: 2nd generation Skylake mBPs will have a major redesign with these features included.

 

[crossi81]

Computex 2015: June 2-5
WWDC 2015: June 8-12

A fair bet: we will know at WWDC if next 15'' is Broadwell or Skylake. And when.

 

[mcarling]

DGPU CONS:
- Higher power consumption. Heat might be more spread out, but by using a dGPU you are using up more electricity. This means that when doing intensive tasks your battery life will be somewhat shorter.
- Shorter battery life when running programs that are not optimised properly. Some programs trigger the dGPU and that lowers battery life; you can prevent this with a small, free program like gfxCardStatus though.
- 4 years ago there were some reliability issues with Apple's dGPU machines.

You left out the fact that a discrete GPU adds a few hundred dollars to the price of a MacBook Pro.

You also understated the reliability issue. Integrated circuits are always more reliable than discrete circuits. That is a fundamental fact of modern electronics and is not specific to GPUs.

 

[mcarling]

I'll remain on the sidelines until Apple does something compelling enough with their next 15" (or 16"?) to get me excited about the purchase. I follow this thread off and on, but I hope the changes will be something beyond a processor update.

My expectation is that the most exciting new feature of the 15" Broadwell MBP will be the Force Trackpad. I'm also looking forward to the butterfly keyboard and to the faster performance (especially integrated GPU performance) and longer battery life provided by the Broadwell processors.

 

[Macula]

Integrated graphics have come a long way in recent years. They are nothing to be disappointed in. Yes, there are some intense applications they are not well suite for, but that list keeps getting smaller and smaller.

Like Mission Control, I guess…

 

[Teuthos]

You left out the fact that a discrete GPU adds a few hundred dollars to the price of a MacBook Pro.

You also understated the reliability issue. Integrated circuits are always more reliable than discrete circuits. That is a fundamental fact of modern electronics and is not specific to GPUs.

So why does an otherwise identically configured low-end 15'' and high-end 15'' rMBP cost the same, when one has the dGPU and one doesn't? It is true that Apple will of course have to buy the dGPUs and that it will add to the manufacturing cost, but apparently that does not stop Apple from selling identically priced build to order options, even when one has a dGPU. And seriously, this is Apple.

Yes, integrated graphics are more reliable, however, I think that this is overstated. Is the person buying and using the computer likely to ever be affected by that 0.1% higher risk (or however much it is) of the machine dying? No. Will Apple lose significant amounts of money with repairs? Probably not, unless they mess up again like with the 2008, 2010 and 2011.

And guess what? Practically every computer manufacturer uses dGPUs in some of their computers, and none of them are going bankrupt from repairs, and not many are having massive dGPU failures.

Integrated graphics are advancing and will probably one day replace dedicated GPUs, but given the remarkable gains made by Nvidia with the Maxwell architecture, they have fallen behind in the last few years. Yes, they will eventually catch up, but we are a long way away from that time, and it would really not make sense for Apple to get rid of a dGPU in the rMBP line.

 

[mcarling]

So why does an otherwise identically configured low-end 15'' and high-end 15'' rMBP cost the same, when one has the dGPU and one doesn't? It is true that Apple will of course have to buy the dGPUs and that it will add to the manufacturing cost, but apparently that does not stop Apple from selling identically priced build to order options, even when one has a dGPU. And seriously, this is Apple.

Build-to-order costs more than a base configuration. In other words, a base configuration is a better deal. There is an extra cost to build-to-order beyond merely the cost of the parts. Inventory management is non-trivial.

Yes, integrated graphics are more reliable, however, I think that this is overstated. Is the person buying and using the computer likely to ever be affected by that 0.1% higher risk (or however much it is) of the machine dying? No. Will Apple lose significant amounts of money with repairs? Probably not, unless they mess up again like with the 2008, 2010 and 2011.

I think the risk is more than 10% higher. 0.1% is not a serious estimate.

And guess what? Practically every computer manufacturer uses dGPUs in some of their computers, and none of them are going bankrupt from repairs, and not many are having massive dGPU failures.

As far as I know, only Apple are actively switching between integrated and discrete GPUs based on load.

Integrated graphics are advancing and will probably one day replace dedicated GPUs, but given the remarkable gains made by Nvidia with the Maxwell architecture, they have fallen behind in the last few years. Yes, they will eventually catch up, but we are a long way away from that time, and it would really not make sense for Apple to get rid of a dGPU in the rMBP line.

Wait and see. I predict that no Skylake MBP will come with a discrete GPU.

 

[chad.petree]

Computex 2015: June 2-5
WWDC 2015: June 8-12

A fair bet: we will know at WWDC if next 15'' is Broadwell or Skylake. And when.

2 More months to go, I hope we will get some leaks before then

 

[G-News]

Just picked up my 15" rMBP today after a 500.- off deal that I couldn't let go. Thus new rMBPs will be announced tomorrow. They'll be twice as fast and half the price, too.

 

[Cindori]

New Skylake details:

http://wccftech.com/intels-6th-gene...detailed-95w-enthusiast-quad-cores-confirmed/

Mostly desktop stuff but also some general platform specs.

While there’s much talk about Skylake on desktop platforms, Intel also showcased several devices which are featuring Skylake in working state at the IDF15 Shenzhen conference. Intel showed off an Ultrabook design running Windows 10 that was powered by Skylake.

Guess it's looking like no Broadwell MBP in June after all...