Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[urkel]

As with every new overhyped chip upgrade, the biggest benefit to me is that the prices of the previous gen plummet.

I just picked up an open box 2012 cMBP15 for $1154 and an MBA13 for $799 so IF all Haswell brings is another 10% increase then I'm fine with "old" technology and a wad of cash to sleep on.

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

It's definitely nothing special. The GT650M is still going to be a better performer.

This discrete GPU is already pretty old.

----------

The haswell will be perfect to upgrade from a sandy bridge, or for those who wants a r macbook or macbook air.
...
In terms of graphic will be a good way to experience the retina macbooks because hd4000 of any rmacbook is a little weak to render that resolution...

No, this is a software (driver) problem.

 

[kittencounter]

The Intel HD4000 is not too weak for retina Macbooks. I own the 15" rMBP and it's smooth in every way. When I first bought it, it's smooth already but after the 10.8.3 update recently, it doesn't even stutter anywhere. YES, Chrome scroll speed is not smooth but it's Chrome's problem. I use webkit Safari and it's night and day difference in terms of smoothness. Even if u turn everything on for hardware acceleration in Chrome....it's still just no match. I don't know how webkit Safari does it, maybe it caches more stuffs, it's RAM usage is higher than Chrome...but if you have 16 GBs RAM ....who cares. All the small graphic glitches in Safari (if anyone know what I mean) also disappeared ..like 2 months ago. Don't ask me how..

I do feel bad for people who has problems with their machines but don't fool urself that the CPU and its GPU is too weak for the tasks. The rMBP is really the best laptop u can buy.

 

[Giuly]

And if you look closely, the Ivy Bridge 3770k has a ceiling TDP of 95W, while the Haswell 4770k has a TDP of 84W. That means a better battery life if the same goes for the mobile chips (45W->40W).

Yet they could've kept the 95W and further improved the performance. As the chip is unlocked, there's nothing stopping you from doing exactly that on a desktop PC.

 

[SnowLeopard2008]

Haswell's graphics isn't going to replace discrete any time soon. It will just be better than current. So for the 13" MBPr this is good news. CPU-wise, it's not significant enough for people to worry. The main thing Haswell brings is vastly improved graphics and better power efficiency. Intel is tapering off the performance gains in favor of power efficiency and better graphics.

 

[Mr MM]

I know that, but Haswell will have a few different video chipsets. GT2 and GT3. Desktops aren't even receiving GT3 as an option.

we dont have specifics about the launch what we do know is that the quads are going to launch first than the dual cores with the ulvs. regarding when the gt3 cpus are going to hit we dont know.

 

[printz]

How faster can computers get anyway? I think the last major noticeable speed boost was from HDD with SSD, just so huge apps or the OS no longer take minutes to load. But now? If most user activity is editing documents and browsing the Internet, it's only going to be limited by the Internet speed; a faster CPU would make no difference. The CPU improvements seem to only benefit professional number-crunching applications, such as science or multimedia processing, or executable compiling (programming) and that only by small factors, nothing instant. And that will only be felt if the user is him/herself fast enough to think, react and take advantage of the faster computer, by multitasking like hell and doing inhumane work.

 

[PinoyAko]

I never knew that there are a bunch of Intel engineers here in MacRumors!

 

[IllmasterMath]

Haswell has always been about better battery life, and not performance improvements. A much improved battery life is what Intel has been talking about for over a year now. Because of that, I was not expecting any major speed boost. Now, if Haswell fails to deliver a much better battery life than Ivy Bridge, then Intel will be in trouble.

You have no idea what you're talking about. TDP is going UP with Haswell. There will be no gains in efficiency beyond the 5-10% performance increase.

 

[skaertus]

You have no idea what you're talking about. TDP is going UP with Haswell. There will be no gains in efficiency beyond the 5-10% performance increase.

In fact, I do have an idea on what I am talking about, although at least for now I have not too many elements to support it. I am not an engineer nor a computer scientist, and I know nothing about electronics apart from what I read on the news, so I may be absolutely wrong about all of this.

TDP is indeed going up with Haswell. Quad-core mobile processors will have a 47W TDP instead of 45W of Sandy and Ivy Bridge. In my mind, a higher TDP means a higher energy consumption.

Given this scenario, it may seem puzzling that Intel is marketing Haswell as providing a big leap in battery life. I want to make clear that I did not invented this whole "power efficiency" stuff. It has been heavily marketed by Intel.

Here's from Intel's website (http://newsroom.intel.com/community...obile-experiences?wapkw=haswell+power+hours):

4th generation Intel® Core™ processor family (formerly codenamed "Haswell") will enable a broad new range of Ultrabook convertibles, detachables and tablets with all-day battery life; the biggest battery life gain over a previous generation in company's history.

4th Generation Intel Core processors provide 3-5 hours of additional battery life when compared to 3rd Generation Intel Core processors, based on measurement of 1080p HD video playback.

Here's also from Intel's website (http://software.intel.com/en-us/node/327161?wapkw=haswell+power+hours):

As detailed by Intel execs this past week at IDF 2012, the battery life of Ultrabooks will be greatly increased with Intel’s upcoming Haswell processors. Battery life will be essentially doubled, with battery life of up to ten hours for Ultrabooks, even more (12 hours or more) in the case of convertible Ultrabooks. Ultrabooks with Haswell configurations will also feature wireless charging and NFC capabilities, making that move to no cords even more of a reality.

And yet again (http://software.intel.com/en-us/node/184696?wapkw=haswell+battery):

Finally, Intel microarchitecture code name Haswell, will deliver the final phase of the Ultrabook category with even more power-efficient processors, lowering the thermal design point to half that of today's processors. It will also provide better performance and security as well.

How Intel will achieve this? Apparently Intel is making some tweaks to reduce power consumption of some parts which currently consume unnecessary power. The explanation may become a bit technical, but some articles tell the story in a more palatable manner:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409566,00.asp

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6355/intels-haswell-architecture

I hope Intel gets it right. It will be a huge letdown if Intel does not deliver such gains in battery life, given how it has marketed it, and given all the pressure power-efficient ARM processors are making.

 

[kx22]

I just dont expect to much of Haswell, but what happened with Nvidia 330m? Why did Apple abandon the Nvidia dedicatedcard for the inbuild HD3/4000?
I have 2 Macbook Air's. One with the 330m and one with the HD3000. The 330m owns the HD3000 in every gaming way, whatever the scores on testsbenchmark says.

Especially in Windows. I can still play good starcraft 2 on the 330m but lag with the lowest settings on the HD3000. I really want the retina 13", but will not buy one until we get decent grafics.

BTW now Ivy is in control for the ios 7, we can be sure that the Macbook will not get a refresh? I know the Macbook still looks great compared to other notebooks, but hey....its already 5 years. Time to work again!

 

[Skullbussa]

Lots of poorly informed in this thread.

Sandy Bridge brought about enormous performance increases, in excess of 50%, over the Westmere predecessor.

That was a "tock" in Intel parlance, just as Haswell will be. I do not think it is unreasonable to expect more than a 10% performance boost. But still, I do think 10% increase with superior energy efficiency is anything to shake a stick at. This will bring about lower temperatures which, for the rMBP, is much more important than a 10% faster CPU.

----------

I just dont expect to much of Haswell, but what happened with Nvidia 330m? Why did Apple abandon the Nvidia dedicatedcard for the inbuild HD3/4000?

Price. Apple is making more money on the one with the integrated HD3000.

 

[Zodiac.mj]

TDP of mobile Haswell is going UP to 47W, from current 45W for SB/IB.

Check out the details in here (example URL): http://cdn3.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Intel_Haswell_Mobile_CPU_Lineup.png

So, if you expect longer battery life or anything else in this regard with Haswell, well, you may just stop fooling yourself and wait for Broadwell.

I just hope Apple will fix thermals for next release, as top models are way to hot when running demanding tasks, mine 2.7 2012 rMBP is like on fire most of the time. And maybe a bit better GPU in 15" model, but I doubt at that part too - overclocked 650M with 28nm process is already making my machine throttle most of the time when for example playing games (CPU goes to 50% after GPU kicks in and stays at load for like 5 mins).

Just put better thermals Apple, please, it's all I want.

 

[jesaja]

High TDP doesn't have to mean high mean power consumption. TDP is under peak usage. A good processor design works at full power when a lot of processing power is asked of it, and then clocks down and goes into its sleep states as soon as its done, thus saving power, even overall. The short burst at full power still makes for less of a power drain than a longer time at almost that much power with slower processors.

 

[57004]

I just dont expect to much of Haswell, but what happened with Nvidia 330m? Why did Apple abandon the Nvidia dedicatedcard for the inbuild HD3/4000?
I have 2 Macbook Air's. One with the 330m and one with the HD3000. The 330m owns the HD3000 in every gaming way, whatever the scores on testsbenchmark says.

The MacBook Air never had dedicated graphics. The nVidia graphics that was in there was the 320m, not the 330m, which was an IGP just like the HD3000/4000. It was just integrated in a different place (in the chipset instead of the CPU). The MacBook Pro 15" did have a 330m at one stage but that model still has dedicated graphics of course.

In the CPU or chipset doesn't make much difference, in fact the CPU could be a better place because it has direct access to the cache.

And as to why Apple abandoned them: They had to, under the licensing requirements from intel, nVidia can't make chipsets anymore for the core-i series so they can't make integrated graphics anymore.

 

[iLog.Genius]

Ok I have a question for those who really understand how the chips and power work.

Every new architecture of Intel's CPU generally are more efficient. And with people saying that Haswell should even provide greater efficiency than the usual bump, shouldn't we expect Apple's estimated time or even real-world of battery power jump? It would be easier to say that if Apple provided various configurations but for the most part, hardware is the same yet battery usage remains the same, why is that?

EDIT: Apparently there's a lot more factors going into battery efficiency and it's not as simple as improve chip to improve battery. I just looked back at old cMBP's and it went from 5 hours to 8 hours and down to 7 hours with the current 2012 cMBP.

 

[daneoni]

Price. Apple is making more money on the one with the integrated HD3000.

...or more accurately, Nvidia no longer makes IGPs leaving Apple with Intel as the only option.

 

[Skullbussa]

Just put better thermals Apple, please, it's all I want.

Don't we all want that?

but seriously, the only way this is going to happen is if Apple stops their dogged pursuit to make the thinnest laptops possible and realize they're making engineering sacrifices for the sake of style. There really is no point in having a GT 650M in the laptop because after 10 minutes of gaming it gets so hot that it throttles the system down.

I'd be happy to have a slightly thicker rMBP if they dedicated that space to better heat management - fans or heatsink. That way, I can actually USE what they put into the laptop.

 

[dusk007]

Lots of poorly informed in this thread.

Sandy Bridge brought about enormous performance increases, in excess of 50%, over the Westmere predecessor.

That was a "tock" in Intel parlance, just as Haswell will be. I do not think it is unreasonable to expect more than a 10% performance boost. But still, I do think 10% increase with superior energy efficiency is anything to shake a stick at. This will bring about lower temperatures which, for the rMBP, is much more important than a 10% faster CPU.

You seem to be poorly informed. Westmere wasn't the predecessor it was only for Apple who skipped arrendale and clarkdale on the mobile side. Nehalem was the predecessor and clock for clock Sandy Bridge was just 4-8% faster. Nothing to write home about.
Also the big increase from Westmere if you want to look at that, was due to many architectural changes. All architectural changes in Haswell are known and none suggest any significant boost. After Westmere the Front Side Bus disappear and was replaced by an insanely fast ringbus. The cache shrank and got a lot faster. The integrated memory controller was practically twice as fast in both bandwidth and latency.
Haswell has nothing other than small incremental changes that we have seen between Nehalem, Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge and never yielded more than about 5% for IPC on average.

In energy efficiency Intel only really promises that the CPU will dip lower in power consumption when not doing much or nothing. And only the SoC dual core chips the Air will get come with all the bells and whistles that should lower platform power as a whole a bit. That doesn't really make the CPU more efficient but some of the other suckers on the logicboard. It should help cheaper notebooks do better compared to more expensive design which are already better optimized in the periphery.

The tock performance wise for Intel really only is for the GPU and not the CPU.

 

[dusk007]

And if you look closely, the Ivy Bridge 3770k has a ceiling TDP of 95W, while the Haswell 4770k has a TDP of 84W. That means a better battery life if the same goes for the mobile chips (45W->40W).

Yet they could've kept the 95W and further improved the performance. As the chip is unlocked, there's nothing stopping you from doing exactly that on a desktop PC.

Ivy Bridge mainstream TDP is 77W not 95 and as such the TDP increased from 77 to 84.
The 3770k is also 77W not 95.

 

[Mackan]

I get a deja vu every year when it comes to new Intel CPUs. It all ends up a bit overhyped, and with a delayed launch.

Had hoped that we could see quad cores becoming standard in 13'' notebooks with Haswell, but it seems not the case, judging form leaked TDP values.

 

[Deasnutz]

Haswell refresh likely to drop discrete gpu?

In the market for a retina mbp. While I don't doubt haswell's graphical powers...a discrete gpu is always nice on a mobile workstation. Any word on the likelyhood Apple will drop the discrete gpu for the next refresh?

And with a Samsung display out of the picture, who else will be producing the displays besides LG?

 

[leman]

In the market for a retina mbp. While I don't doubt haswell's graphical powers...a discrete gpu is always nice on a mobile workstation. Any word on the likelyhood Apple will drop the discrete gpu for the next refresh?

It would be an extremely bad move to drop the discrete GPU on the 15" model. I seriously doubt they would do this.

 

[xVeinx]

Some have been suggesting that PCIe will be bandwidth constrained on Haswell, so adding a discrete GPU would add little benefit. If that is the case, then leaving the GPU off might be the only reasonable option due to Intel limiting the OEMs to stick with the Intel graphics. It also makes options such as Crystalwell more desirable as it gives more tangible benefit versus adding a discrete GPU that won't be able to perform any better than the integrated graphics. Again, this is rumor, so we'll have to see what actually takes place. However, it may help explain why Apple is doing it; they have effectively no choice else they are literally wasting money--and will draw the ire of people wondering why the discrete graphics perform to the level they expect.

 

[Mr MM]

Some have been suggesting that PCIe will be bandwidth constrained on Haswell, so adding a discrete GPU would add little benefit. If that is the case, then leaving the GPU off might be the only reasonable option due to Intel limiting the OEMs to stick with the Intel graphics. It also makes options such as Crystalwell more desirable as it gives more tangible benefit versus adding a discrete GPU that won't be able to perform any better than the integrated graphics. Again, this is rumor, so we'll have to see what actually takes place. However, it may help explain why Apple is doing it; they have effectively no choice else they are literally wasting money--and will draw the ire of people wondering why the discrete graphics perform to the level they expect.

what the hell? Who said that haswell would be bandwidth constrained in the pcie? this holds no logic

For one since ivy cpus can do pcie 3.0, while the pch on the mobile is still pcie 2.0 x8, and thats on the QM77

http://ark.intel.com/products/64333/Intel-BD82QM77-PCH

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/chipsets/performance-chipsets/mobile-chipset-qm77.html

there is little sense for apple to do drop the dgpu

and the rmbp 15 is not even close to being a workstation