Waiting for Haswell MBP Mega Thread

[Stetrain]

I could possibly see an entry level model of the 15" without the discrete GPU, but with the GT3e Haswell graphics instead.

I don't think it's super likely though. Apple did something similar with the 2009 15" MBP and then got rid of it the next year I believe.

The GPU is a good way to set the 15" and 13" models apart.

 

[leman]

Some have been suggesting that PCIe will be bandwidth constrained on Haswell, so adding a discrete GPU would add little benefit.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Even with constrained bandwidth, a dedicated GPU is still likely to be ways faster than the IGP.

 

[Deasnutz]

and the rmbp 15 is not even close to being a workstation

What is it lacking as a mobile workstation?

 

[dlimes13]

What is it lacking as a mobile workstation?

Extreme Mobile CPUs
4 RAM Slots
Multiple Hard Drive Bay
REMOVABLE HDD/SSD/RAM FOR THAT MATTER
High-End Professional Graphics Cards (GT 650M is Mid-Range)
Anti-Glare options, or 3D for AutoCAD, etc.
Mobile Broadband options

Shall I go on?

 

[xVeinx]

what the hell? Who said that haswell would be bandwidth constrained in the pcie? this holds no logic

For one since ivy cpus can do pcie 3.0, while the pch on the mobile is still pcie 2.0 x8, and thats on the QM77

http://ark.intel.com/products/64333/Intel-BD82QM77-PCH

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/chipsets/performance-chipsets/mobile-chipset-qm77.html

there is little sense for apple to do drop the dgpu

and the rmbp 15 is not even close to being a workstation

Rumor has the PCIe at 2.0, 4 lanes (x4), which halves the bandwidth. Depending on how many lanes are used for other connectivity, then you may only have lets say 2 lanes available. It will hinder the performance for sure. Again, this is a rumor that may not be true, we'll have to see. I doubt that Haswell will reach the performance of GT 650 (and early benchmarks show that it is well behind), but that is the target aimed for. If you drop the number of lanes available to the dGPU to 2 lanes, I guarantee it won't perform up to par. I'm not saying this is ideal by any means, just that it may be forced upon the market for reasons other than cutting costs if it indeed does happen.

 

[Erasmus]

Not going to happen.

That is one ridiculous rumour.

If such a thing were to happen to Haswell mobile motherboards (purely theoretically, as it WON'T), Apple would more likely stick with Ivy Bridge.

 

[Pentad]

and the rmbp 15 is not even close to being a workstation

Spoken like someone who doesn't own one...

 

[Mr MM]

Spoken like someone who doesn't own one...

Not really actually, I owned one, sold it. Not disgruntled with the product at all, just know how to differentiate each product and its niche.
And this is quite a low "argument".

if you never handled for example a hp 8000w series with the dreamcolor panel, 32gb of ram, high end PROFESSIONAL gpu, with easy repairability, easy access to components, NBD, ACD, on site service, a panel that has color consistency, that has 150% aRGB, thats workstation for you

Rumor has the PCIe at 2.0, 4 lanes (x4), which halves the bandwidth. Depending on how many lanes are used for other connectivity, then you may only have lets say 2 lanes available. It will hinder the performance for sure. Again, this is a rumor that may not be true, we'll have to see. I doubt that Haswell will reach the performance of GT 650 (and early benchmarks show that it is well behind), but that is the target aimed for. If you drop the number of lanes available to the dGPU to 2 lanes, I guarantee it won't perform up to par. I'm not saying this is ideal by any means, just that it may be forced upon the market for reasons other than cutting costs if it indeed does happen.

Not really, intel is going for pcie 3.0 x16 on this season Thunderbolt already uses pcie 2.0 x4 of those sparingly available lanes

but to put to rest that baseless thing:

http://intelintelligentsystemsallia...odule-4th-generation-intel®-core™-processor-0

http://img.dfi.com/Upload/CatalogElement/ACP/HM960-QM87.pdf

http://www.dfi.com.tw/products/Prod...=12&subCategoryId=12&productDetailsPage=false

Can you please show me those benchies that show it doesnt perform on par with the 650m? I believe it should perform around the 640m so 1600ish in 3dmark11

 

[mykem]

if you never handled for example a hp 8000w series with the dreamcolor panel, 32gb of ram, high end PROFESSIONAL gpu, with easy repairability, easy access to components, NBD, ACD, on site service, a panel that has color consistency, that has 150% aRGB, thats workstation for you

But the HP is also almost twice the weight of the 15" rMBP (starts at 7.7 lbs) and while the scene may be called Dreamweaver, but still has 1/2 the pixel density of retina display. If Apple wanted to it can probably build a workstation but that's not even its target market- the rMBP is for software/app developers, writers, musicians,; basically the antithesis of corporate world of number crunchers and high stake decision makers.

 

[LeeM]

even if the integrated graphics was able to outperform any discrete gpu available for the macbook, they wouldnt be able to do it because too many people would think it was worse and not buy.

 

[Valkyre]

Extreme Mobile CPUs
4 RAM Slots
Multiple Hard Drive Bay
REMOVABLE HDD/SSD/RAM FOR THAT MATTER
High-End Professional Graphics Cards (GT 650M is Mid-Range)
Anti-Glare options, or 3D for AutoCAD, etc.
Mobile Broadband options

Shall I go on?

Yes please do...

and while you are at it, kindly provide alternative solutions as worthy portable workstations according to your standards...

Cause it looks like even if they gave you a portable 12 core mac pro it would still lack a lot of those things you mentioned...

 

[cirus]

Extreme Mobile CPUs
4 RAM Slots
Multiple Hard Drive Bay
REMOVABLE HDD/SSD/RAM FOR THAT MATTER
High-End Professional Graphics Cards (GT 650M is Mid-Range)
Anti-Glare options, or 3D for AutoCAD, etc.
Mobile Broadband options

Shall I go on?

But the HP is also almost twice the weight of the 15" rMBP (starts at 7.7 lbs) and while the scene may be called Dreamweaver, but still has 1/2 the pixel density of retina display. If Apple wanted to it can probably build a workstation but that's not even its target market- the rMBP is for software/app developers, writers, musicians,; basically the antithesis of corporate world of number crunchers and high stake decision makers.

Yes, thats why its not a workstation. The rmbp is a very impressive pretty piece of hardware but it by no means a mobile workstation. He doesn't care about weight or size his comments were toward performance.

Yes please do...

and while you are at it, kindly provide alternative solutions as worthy portable workstations according to your standards...

Cause it looks like even if they gave you a portable 12 core mac pro it would still lack a lot of those things you mentioned...

Dell dell and hp sell computers that are real workhorses. Its always funny to see people get all defensive when you say the rmbp is a workstation. But its not.

A nice alternative

3rd Gen Intel® Core™ i7-3840QM Processor (2.8GHz, 8M cache, Upgradable to Intel® vPro™ technology)
OPERATING SYSTEM Windows 7 Professional, No Media, 64-bit, English
PRODUCTIVITY SOFTWARE Microsoft® Office Trial, MUI
MEMORY 16.0GB, DDR3-1600MHz SDRAM, 2 DIMMS
HARD DRIVE 750GB 2.5" 7200rpm Hard Drive
HARD DRIVE CONFIGURATION No RAID Configuration
GRAPHICS CARD NVIDIA® Quadro® K4000M with 4GB GDDR5
OPTICAL DRIVE 8X DVD+/-RW Slot Load
LCD DISPLAY 17.3" UltraSharp™ FHD (1920x1080) Premier Color IPS RGB Anti-Glare, Premium Panel Guarantee
INTEGRATED WEBCAM Integrated HD video webcam and noise reducing array microphones, IPS RGB
INTERNAL KEYBOARD Internal English Keyboard
TOUCHPAD OPTIONS No USH, No Fingerprint Reader and No Contactless Smartcard Reader
WIRELESS CARDS Intel® Centrino® Ultimate-N 6300 802.11n 3x3 Half Mini-card
BATTERY OPTIONS 9-cell (97Wh) Primary Lithium Ion Battery, (3.0Ah) ExpressCharge Capable

Costs very similar to the maxed out rmbp 15 inch. Does not have an ssd (but if you buy the ram and ssd yourself it will be marginally more expensive).

Main reason why rmbp is not a mobile workstation is that it doesn't have professional graphics cards. If you want to run solidworks, maya, or any similar application you will get MUCH better performance on the dell (literally in some cases an order or magnitude). You can also upgrade this thing yourself.

If I want I can drop in extreme cpu or multiple HDDs. Its big and its not pretty but it can do things the rmbp cant even thing of.

 

[alphaod]

My old T-series Thinkpad had "workstation" graphics and the fancy stuff, but it certainly didn't feel very fast.

I think basing the definition of a workstation solely on specs instead of work done is deceiving.

 

[Valkyre]

Yes, thats why its not a workstation. The rmbp is a very impressive pretty piece of hardware but it by no means a mobile workstation. He doesn't care about weight or size his comments were toward performance.



Dell dell and hp sell computers that are real workhorses. Its always funny to see people get all defensive when you say the rmbp is a workstation. But its not.

A nice alternative

3rd Gen Intel® Core™ i7-3840QM Processor (2.8GHz, 8M cache, Upgradable to Intel® vPro™ technology)
OPERATING SYSTEM Windows 7 Professional, No Media, 64-bit, English
PRODUCTIVITY SOFTWARE Microsoft® Office Trial, MUI
MEMORY 16.0GB, DDR3-1600MHz SDRAM, 2 DIMMS
HARD DRIVE 750GB 2.5" 7200rpm Hard Drive
HARD DRIVE CONFIGURATION No RAID Configuration
GRAPHICS CARD NVIDIA® Quadro® K4000M with 4GB GDDR5
OPTICAL DRIVE 8X DVD+/-RW Slot Load
LCD DISPLAY 17.3" UltraSharp™ FHD (1920x1080) Premier Color IPS RGB Anti-Glare, Premium Panel Guarantee
INTEGRATED WEBCAM Integrated HD video webcam and noise reducing array microphones, IPS RGB
INTERNAL KEYBOARD Internal English Keyboard
TOUCHPAD OPTIONS No USH, No Fingerprint Reader and No Contactless Smartcard Reader
WIRELESS CARDS Intel® Centrino® Ultimate-N 6300 802.11n 3x3 Half Mini-card
BATTERY OPTIONS 9-cell (97Wh) Primary Lithium Ion Battery, (3.0Ah) ExpressCharge Capable

Costs very similar to the maxed out rmbp 15 inch. Does not have an ssd (but if you buy the ram and ssd yourself it will be marginally more expensive).

Main reason why rmbp is not a mobile workstation is that it doesn't have professional graphics cards. If you want to run solidworks, maya, or any similar application you will get MUCH better performance on the dell (literally in some cases an order or magnitude). You can also upgrade this thing yourself.

If I want I can drop in extreme cpu or multiple HDDs. Its big and its not pretty but it can do things the rmbp cant even thing of.

Dell?? Really? One of the worst and most unreliable laptop builders that each year tops the lists in these categories??

As a powerful and reliable workstation?

Sorry. No.

 

[leman]

Dell?? Really? One of the worst and most unreliable laptop builders that each year tops the lists in these categories??

As a powerful and reliable workstation?

Sorry. No.

Please don't confuse the cheap Dells with their professional 3000+ euro machines, its a completely different category in the built quality.

 

[CJM]

Ah fanboys. Frothing at the mouths when their beloved rMBPs are correctly defined; they are not mobile workstations. The 650m GPU is not a compute-oriented chip. It will underperform against cards like the above mentioned k4000m. The rMBP will not beat a proper mobile workstation in compute tasks such as Adobe Premiere rendering or any other app which utilises the GPU.

I mean, I'm still going to buy one when the refresh comes, but please stop calling an apple an orange.

 

[Mr MM]

My old T-series Thinkpad had "workstation" graphics and the fancy stuff, but it certainly didn't feel very fast.

I think basing the definition of a workstation solely on specs instead of work done is deceiving.

the thinkpad T was never a workstation, they have the W line for that. not that lenovo actually delivers a real workstation since the w700

only dell and hp does that

Dell?? Really? One of the worst and most unreliable laptop builders that each year tops the lists in these categories??

As a powerful and reliable workstation?

Sorry. No.

You think a manufacturer only has one standard? for consumers and enterprise class there is a very clear distinction on that


We have described to you what a workstation is, its very different from the rmbp in every way that matter, not because of the size and weight, workstations were never created with the idea of slim and weightless. They were created to be powerhouses for people that need that, those people are actually really fine with those, they actually want more power:

CPU: the 3940xm running at 5ghz is a very large far cry from the 3840qm that appple offers.

GPU: the k5000 and the m6000 are very much more powerful and directed to the users that need it, the 650m is a POS when it comes to professional hardware like maya, 3dmax, kepler is POS, still to compare in terms of raw power the 650m is around 3x less powerful than the 680m and thats what the k5000 is with off course ECC buffered ram and other goodies.

RAM: large amounts is what those guys need, not 16gb but at least 32gb and they are crying for more

Service: they cant have downtime, downtime for them is wasted money, accidental damage, on site repairs, next business day is what they need, to have to bring to apple wait some days and get it. You can actually service it on site if you have a dedicated IT team, those OEM ship you parts overnight and its there for you to do the job the next day.

Security: you can have TPM chips and other stuff in there

Screen: there is no way to compare a 70% aRGB screen (rmbp) with tendency to color fluxtuation to a 150% aRGB screen with no tendency to color fluxtuation and other goodies. Yes there is a difference in resolution, yes those guys would love that higher res, not with those short commings

Look this is getting tiresome, the concept of workstation is not new, is not what apple delivers nor what it aims for. And this is very much OT.

 

[bill-p]

I agree with some Mr. MM and some others here.

My rMBP is a very capable "professional" machine (fits my profession, and I use it to do professional work), but by no definition is it a "workstation".

Wikipedia clearly defined what a workstation is:

A workstation is a high-end microcomputer designed for technical or scientific applications

And I tell ya... for "scientific" and "technical" applications, even 32GB of RAM or 8-core processors won't be enough. Feed it a list of merely 1 million data points (reasonable for a mapping project or a more detailed collision simulation) and see how 32GB blows up in no time.

 

[Mr MM]

I agree with some Mr. MM and some others here.

My rMBP is a very capable "professional" machine (fits my profession, and I use it to do professional work), but by no definition is it a "workstation".

Wikipedia clearly defined what a workstation is:



And I tell ya... for "scientific" and "technical" applications, even 32GB of RAM or 8-core processors won't be enough. Feed it a list of merely 1 million data points (reasonable for a mapping project or a more detailed collision simulation) and see how 32GB blows up in no time.

exactly, this is what I use now, and this is a desktop workstation, much like the mac pro is:

MOBO:Supermicro X9DRG-QF
CPU: 2X Xeon E5-4640 2.4GHz (2.8GHz Turbo Boost) 20MB L3 Cache 8-Core
RAM: 4X Wintec Server Series 64GB (4 x 16GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM ECC Registered DDR3 1600
GPU: 2X FirePro W9000

I know people that use much more than that as well. On a side note, playing with ramdisk is fun on this thing. Still on the list to buy 2x titans, so that I can have some cuda love

Now compare that to a fully tricked 8770w (the best workstation out there IMO):

CPU: 3940xm
GPU: m6000
RAM: 32gb at 1600mhz
Screen: DreamColor 2

there is just a tiny difference in performance, just tiny

 

[voyagerd]

I bet that Apple is not using a discrete GPU in the Haswell MacBook Pro.

 

[Erasmus]

I bet that Apple is not using a discreet GPU in the Haswell MacBook Pro.

I disagree. I think the GPU they contain will be very discreet.
However I would PREFER a very indiscreet discrete GPU, but that would likely discreate the notebook in a ball of superheated plasma.

 

[voyagerd]

Apple would have to have had to choose if the extra power draw would be worth minimal improvements. A Haswell CPU with Intel HD5200 processor graphics has a TDP of 47W. A discreet GPU with similar performance draws about 45W. Either they'd have to use a higher performance, higher wattage GPU, or use Intel Processor Graphics and be able to tout much higher battery life.

 

[Erasmus]

Apple would have to have had to choose if the extra power draw would be worth minimal improvements. A Haswell CPU with Intel HD5200 processor graphics has a TDP of 47W. A discreet GPU with similar performance draws about 45W. Either they'd have to use a higher performance, higher wattage GPU, or use Intel Processor Graphics and be able to tout much higher battery life.

I see. I thought you were trying to be clever, talking about "discreet" GPUs.

Apparently you weren't.

"Discreet" means quiet, unobtrusive, careful.
"Discrete" means separate.

The Intel 5200 integrated GPU (which is very discreet) will be significantly slower than even the present 650M, let alone a next-gen GPU. Apple will not stop offering a DISCRETE GPU in at least some of their 15" MBP models. It would be a serious decrease in performance. Significantly more noticeable than the CPU benefit of going to Haswell.

 

[mankymanning]

Haswell battery life likely to be the same

Intel have revealed some news on Haswell.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6927/some-haswell-tdps-revealed-15w-28w-ultrabooks

Looks like it will have similar power consumption to Ivy Bridge for quad core parts likely to be used by MBP. They are v. unlikely to drop discrete graphics especially for the retina displays.

"With an increase in TDP, it's entirely possible that we won't see any battery life improvement from quad-core mobile Ivy Bridge to Haswell unless you start including power savings from potentially getting rid of a discrete GPU."

Interesting.

 

[leman]

The TDP is just the upper limit. Its not like the CPU spends all or even most of its time at max load (which would be closer to the TDP). If Haswell can deliver higher power savings in the idle mode, then the battery life will be significantly increased.