Waiting for the 2018 MBP

[Gata]

Windows is just such a terrible user experience, but why?

I feel like of out of the box OEM bloatware detracts a lot. I felt like doing a clean install of Windows made the experience a lot more pleasant.

Windows is also missing a lot of the fit and finish that OSX has (I've never looked at a Windows implementation of something and thought "wow, that's slick"), and missing touchpad gestures means that even when Windows offers something similar to OSX (for example, desktop spaces), it's never as automatic as on Mac (e.g. I got used to touch gestures for switching between spaces much, much faster than using the keyboard shortcut on Windows).

That being said: Once you get past the lack of fit and finish, Windows is fine. It does what it needs to do well enough to satisfy most people's needs. Personally, since I'm a coder, I'm only really in Windows if I need to use an Office application for some reason, if I'm doing Adobe work (as a hobby), or if I'm gaming. Otherwise, I'm always in Ubuntu, because the majority of apps and tasks are sufficiently cross-platform. Getting back on OSX means the only real reason I would need for Windows is for gaming, and even in that department, OSX is certainly serviceable, provided you're not hoping for the latest and greatest from AAA devs.

it looks hideous

I feel like this is hyperbole. Occasionally inconsistent styling aside, it looks fine, though the start menu blocky aesthetic leaves a lot to be desired.

the user experience is unintuitive (although perhaps i'd feel differently if I grew up on windows)

The Windows experience definitely seems more memorized than OSX.

and things seem to freeze up and crash orders of magnitude more often than they do on OSX.

This, at least in my own experience, is straight-up incorrect.

It seems like I'm often thinking to myself when I use windows, "This is really the best they could do?"

This, however, is a thought that occurs to me semiregularly.

 

[richinaus]

No. Honestly... it wouldn't be different.
All my colleagues at work use PCs aka Windows. Since like forever. And they are like 'uuugh... Apple... and no... it's to complicated... and Windows is SOOOO GOOD and intuitive'.

Then they DON'T EVEN customize the Start Menu... and leave Candy Crush there. Don't change ANY setting. Don't change the ICC Profile to match their displays etc. etc. If you ask them HOW to do it... they don't even know. Then they complain on top of it... "why does this happen, why does THAT happen!" but they never do anything about it.
Worst of all... and they are real tech people... if they have an issue... they google it... IN GERMAN!!!

Yes... Windows is AWESOME and SIMPLE... if you don't ACTUALLY wanna do something. Or... if you learned certain procedures by heart... like all 100 clicks you have to perform to get it done. Other than that... it IS an unmitigated disaster. And no matter what other people might say here... and claim that Windows is soooo soooo good by now. It's simply not the truth...
And... this is explicitely NOT a discussion that Apple's quality and the quality of macOS has gone down in recent years. I'm happy to admit this... (but sad that I HAVE to admit this). I'm also not saying that Windows doesn't have a few cool features... like Aero Snap that works REALLY well... all things considered though... it simply is NOT a good and intuitive OS.

In my experience the majority of people do not want to learn beyond what they need to do. They same will apply to both Mac and Windows users.

Most people turn on, open up email and the software they use daily and off they go. There is no need to touch anything else.

However I would say that these same people don't use a tenth of the tools available to them, and do nothing to improve their efficiency. I have seen it hundreds of times.

 

[TheralSadurns]

In my experience the majority of people do not want to learn beyond what they need to do. They same will apply to both Mac and Windows users.

Most people turn on, open up email and the software they use daily and off they go. There is no need to touch anything else.

However I would say that these same people don't use a tenth of the tools available to them, and do nothing to improve their efficiency. I have seen it hundreds of times.

This... and at the same time... they are Ghetto-Elitist (yes I made this up... there is probably a better term already in existence) and are like "Windows is great. Mac sucks (because this is how they call it). And you only buy Apple as a status symbol!!! My PC is better and more intuitive anyways..."

But... granted... there are a LOT of people nowadays... who only buy Apple products because they ARE status symbols by now... *sigh*

 

[sputnikBA]

I'm actually surprised Apple never decided to just design their own memory controller for LPDDR4 support. I would actually really like to know the reason why they never went down that route considering how dedicated they are to designing parts to get them perf / efficiency / features that they need.

- Maybe they thought it would cost to much?
- Maybe they thought they wouldn't sell enough 32GB or above models to justify it?
- Maybe they couldn't get anyone to manufacture their design to the spec they wanted?
- Maybe it wouldnt give the perf they wanted? Or a perf rate that was higher than just going with the 16GB but at higher speeds like they did? Maybe they were believe too strongly in macOS' RAM swap handling?
- Maybe they just believed in Intel for too long?
- Maybe they did start going down that R&D road and just said: "y'know what, at this rate we might as well just speed up the plans on designing our own processors instead"?

Would be fascinating to see why they never chose this.

 

[Poki]

10nm Cannonlake is here and shipping in a retail notebook! Unfortunately, it‘s garbage.

https://wccftech.com/intel-10nm-cannonlake-core-i3-8121u-lenovo-ideapad-notebook/

 

[richinaus]

10nm Cannonlake is here and shipping in a retail notebook! Unfortunately, it‘s garbage.

https://wccftech.com/intel-10nm-cannonlake-core-i3-8121u-lenovo-ideapad-notebook/

Is this more for a MacBook?

 

[han_del_]

I just wish apple wouldn't cluster everything so heavily in the thin and light over performance category.

I agree that a notebook that is truly pro should not have light and thin as its two top criteria.

 

[richinaus]

I agree that a notebook that is truly pro should not have light and thin as its two top criteria.

You are looking or hoping that Apple are going to produce your dream computer. This isn’t going to happen I am afraid. They are a business and make a great laptop to sell to a lot of people. The reality is this does not include you and your specific truly pro needs.

 

[impulse462]

Interested to see if apple really has made some change to the keyboards. I like my 2017 MBP 15" keyboard and I've had no issues with it. However i did briefly use a coworkers lenovo keyboard last week to send an email. I forgot which laptop model it was but i know it has a quad-core xeon. That keyboard felt amazing, definitely better than my current 15". It has honestly been a long time since I used a windows computer who's hardware felt better than whatever mac I currently had.

Design wise and most importantly software-wise, the MBP wins of course but the feel of that keyboard was awesome.

 

[EugW]

10nm Cannonlake is here and shipping in a retail notebook! Unfortunately, it‘s garbage.

https://wccftech.com/intel-10nm-cannonlake-core-i3-8121u-lenovo-ideapad-notebook/

They shouldn't even have released this 10 nm part. It's embarrassing.

This must be the part that Intel talked about that shipped at the very end of 2017, but which they refused to provide real details for. Now we know why.

Is this more for a MacBook?

Nope. It's for neither a MacBook (runs too hot) nor a MacBook Pro (runs too slow).

It has the worst of both worlds. It has the heat generation of a 15 W MBP part, but with the performance of a 5 W MB part, literally. The 14 nm Kaby Lake Core m3-7Y32 in the MacBook gets 265 in Cinebench.

Actually, it's even worse, as it doesn't even include an integrated GPU.

 

[The Reasonable One]

Thanks. Are they all in black color? My room has an anti-black theme. I tried Das and Logitech Craft keyboard on my big white desk. Looked kind of ugly.

Honestly I don’t think so. You migh be able to get separate key caps for it but I think that’s it if even. I’m pretty sure only Razer makes white keyboards out of the top two brands (for name not quality) but I definitely don’t recommend Razer after mine broke within a year without having anything spilled on it.
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That claim might or might not be true (I tend to agree with it). On the whole, however, I think striving for thin and light has been a great thing, especially when you consider that for what most people do on their computers an entry-level MBP works great. And I really like that I can fit my 13" into a carrying case as slim and portable as this one. I love it.

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True, usually I don't need to travel with dongles/adapters. For those who do, it's different.

As for USB-C/Thunderbolt3 only, I'm glad Apple had the guts to get rid of the legacy ports, to help push the industry into what looks to be the right direction. The faster we leave old USB behind, the better, in my opinion. The new ports are much faster and much more versatile. I can see why consumers didn't like it, but I'm not going to blame Apple for doing the right thing.




The data I've seen says there is a rise in keyboard failure rate with the new MBPs, but a lower failure rate overall. that has to be kept in mind as well. So far, the new MBPs are failing less not more than their predecessors did. Nevertheless, this time I got AppleCare, just in case, something I'd never done before and never had an issue with as all my Apple products so far have worked faithfully for years and years.

Overall, I have to say my MBP feels well built. But one potential area where Apple might be getting cheap is thermal paste. Apparently, the paste Apple uses isn't that good. It gets old quick and causes the notebook to overheat. Switching to a higher quality paste (or liquid metal) gets the heat under control. At least according to this video and another one I saw:

Interesting. When I finally write continuous pages on it, let's see whether I feel the same way. Somebody told me that you have to learn to type softer on this keyboard since the keys don't require much force to register. Most of us are used to typing on the old keyboards, even on typewriters, where you really want to strike the key hard to make it register.

That’s the issue though. It’s easier to be speedy if you aren’t worried about how hard your hitting it. With speed usually comes more force due to quicker acceleration. Yes I know speed is not acceleration or even velocity but the quicker you accelerate into hitting the key the more force will be exerted and that’s a fact. Also the people who seem to like the keyboard that I know in person are people who this is their first Apple laptop or they’re used to iPads. Cuz on iPads you just tap and this is barely more force than that. My mom loved typing on it but she’s a 2 finger per hand typer who uses an iPad all day as her main computer. Idk. Everyone has different opinions and some power Typers might really like it but for me it doesn’t work as well as I’d want. Also the friend who this is his first Mac types super slow and has to look at the keyboard fairly often. He’s definitely not smashing keyboards and using the key rebound to get himself set for the next press. That is why I prefer mechanical keyboards and when those aren’t available the 09 or 2012 MacBook Pro keyboards as those were really nice in terms of rebound. But I also have bad finger dexterity and rely on the rebound so idk I guess everyone has different tastes

 

[bartvk]

I'm actually surprised Apple never decided to just design their own memory controller for LPDDR4 support.

Personally, I think it's because it's a lot of effort which they could better invest into the iPhone and the iPad.

 

[leman]

I'm actually surprised Apple never decided to just design their own memory controller for LPDDR4 support. I would actually really like to know the reason why they never went down that route considering how dedicated they are to designing parts to get them perf / efficiency / features that they need.

Because memory controllers these days are part of the CPU? How do you imagine a custom controller working at the technical level? Are they supposed to cut out pieces of Intel CPUs and replace them with custom silicon?

 

[MrGunnyPT]

Because memory controllers these days are part of the CPU? How do you imagine a custom controller working at the technical level? Are they supposed to cut out pieces of Intel CPUs and replace them with custom silicon?

This.

At the end of the day it’s Intel’s fault that Apple can’t use LPDDR4.

Cannonlake delay is a major red flag regarding DDR4 support

 

[lucasrant]

Does anyone know if there've been any rumors or indications that we'll see MPB updated this WWDC?

 

[leman]

Does anyone know if there've been any rumors or indications that we'll see MPB updated this WWDC?

Common sense dictates an update around WWDC:

1. It is traditionally when Apple releases new hardware

2. New Intel CPUs have been released in march, but have not yet reached the market in high volumes. Where are all those chips? My suspicion: someone big is buying the initial supply

3. Similar in regard to AMD mobile Vega chips — we know that the hardware is ready (since Intel is shipping a hybrid SoC with Kaby Lake G), but there are still no laptops with standalone Vega around. This is the same pattern we observed in 2016, before the MBP redesign was announced, and suggests that Apple is buying out the initial supply.

All in all: necessary conditions (availability of suitable new components) are satisfied, the timing is right. I am betting on WWDC.

 

[lucasrant]

Common sense dictates an update around WWDC:

1. It is traditionally when Apple releases new hardware

2. New Intel CPUs have been released in march, but have not yet reached the market in high volumes. Where are all those chips? My suspicion: someone big is buying the initial supply

3. Similar in regard to AMD mobile Vega chips — we know that the hardware is ready (since Intel is shipping a hybrid SoC with Kaby Lake G), but there are still no laptops with standalone Vega around. This is the same pattern we observed in 2016, before the MBP redesign was announced, and suggests that Apple is buying out the initial supply.

All in all: necessary conditions (availability of suitable new components) are satisfied, the timing is right. I am betting on WWDC.

Great, thanks for the detailed response!

 

[vseera]

What if, with the class action lawsuit about the keyboard, Apple decides to hold off on releasing the MBP at WWDC and better redesign the keyboard and release them around September/October then?

Seems logical enough, although I wish they've found ways to make it more reliable already that they can release in June.

 

[A_ardvark]

What if, with the class action lawsuit about the keyboard, Apple decides to hold off on releasing the MBP at WWDC and better redesign the keyboard and release them around September/October then?

Seems logical enough, although I wish they've found ways to make it more reliable already that they can release in June.

This really is the darkest timeline...I hope it doesn't come to pass.

 

[leman]

What if, with the class action lawsuit about the keyboard, Apple decides to hold off on releasing the MBP at WWDC and better redesign the keyboard and release them around September/October then?

Seems logical enough, although I wish they've found ways to make it more reliable already that they can release in June.

I don't see any point for them in doing that. Cheaper overall to just offer extended warranty on keyboard repairs. And if they wait for a keyboard redesign, it most certainly won't be October. I am afraid you underestimate the complexity of the task. Frankly, I don't think that Apple is worried about the lawsuit — its not the first time and repercussions for them will be minor. They won't hurt much from losing half a percent of their Mac revenue for repairs...

 

[afir93]

What if, with the class action lawsuit about the keyboard, Apple decides to hold off on releasing the MBP at WWDC and better redesign the keyboard and release them around September/October then?

Seems logical enough, although I wish they've found ways to make it more reliable already that they can release in June.

That's not really how the development process of a new generation works though. If they haven't managed to fix the keyboard issues in the >1.5 years since the inclusion of the 2016 MBPs, then they can't just scribble together a completely redesigned one in the 3-4 months inbetween the lawsuit that's happening right now and September/October.

New hardware is usually planned long in advance: R&D takes time (especially with complete redesigns), product testing takes time, setting up supply and manufacturing chains takes time, and finally producing enough items to get them on the shelves takes time. You can't squeeze that entire process for a product line as big as the MBPs into 3 months, especially when we're talking about complete redesigns.

My guess (and hope) is that Apple has taken the one full year since the 2017 MBPs to address the reliability issues. With all the resources, development teams, patents and ideas that Apple has, it would seem reasonable that Apple of all companies can resolve these issues on the current keyboards, without designing a completely new keyboard from scratch.

 

[vseera]

With all the resources Apple has, they would have full teams still working on Airports, Aperture, proper bug fixing in all their OSes etc. Apple did take out a second generation butterfly keyboard in 2017, so I don't see why they can't release a third gen.

If I agree with you guys, then we will also have to agree that we will only see the keyboard redesign in 2020. Which is too late I feel and dooms next year's MBP to the same fate.

 

[afir93]

Apple did take out a second generation butterfly keyboard in 2017, so I don't see why they can't release a third gen.

If I agree with you guys, then we will also have to agree that we will only see the keyboard redesign in 2020. Which is too late I feel and dooms next year's MBP to the same fate.

This pretty much. Fixing the keyboard ≠ redesigning the keyboard from scratch. Many people seem to assume that the only way to redeem what they've done with the keyboard is by completely redesigning it when there are actually many people out there who like the overall feel and typing experience of it or who at very least don't perceive it as a stepback.

Sure this topic a bit divisive, but the main issue right now are the reliability issues, not the keyboard design itself. If it didn't have an abnormally high failure rate, then it actually would be, dare I say it, a good keyboard that does a lot of things right. And these reliability issues should be fixable with a butterfly v3 and hopefully this year, without completely scrapping the current keyboard design and starting from scratch.

 

[EugW]

There ARE mobile vega chips - at least they're called vega - as they are a mix of polaris and vega technology.

Kaby lake R - with vega graphics:

https://www.engadget.com/2018/01/07/intel-amd-rx-vega-m/


Ryzen chip with vega graphics:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12709/the-acer-swift-3-sf31541-review-ryzen-meets-laptop/4

Granted they are not what apple will use but nothing is stopping apple to use some adapted new Vega mobile GPU with the new coffee lake chips.

Intel's marketing department strikes again. Despite the name, Kaby Lake G is not Vega.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12736/intel-nuc8i7hvk-hades-canyon-gaming-performance-a-second-look

I do however have to mention my disappointment in Intel and AMD for their poorly thought out (if not bordering on deceptive) naming scheme for the Kaby Lake-G dGPU – the Radeon RX Vega M. As we’ve since found out and confirmed thanks to telling Linux driver commits, while Intel and AMD are calling this GPU a Vega, it doesn’t actually include any of the core features that make up the Vega GPU architecture. Features such as Rapid Packed Math, tiled rasterization, and support for Direct3D feature level 12_1 are all absent from Vega M. The only “Vega” feature is the HBM2 memory controller, which is very important for this product given the integrated nature of Kaby Lake-G, but also not a part of the core GPU architecture. Instead, the heart of Vega M appears to be Polaris, AMD’s previous GPU architecture, which itself was a minor update to their 2014 GCN 3 GPU architecture.

 

[leman]

Intel's marketing department strikes again. Despite the name, Kaby Lake G is not Vega.

Its a custom chip that is somewhere midway Polaris and Vega. In the end, its all question of rhetorics. Vega chips are also just Polaris updated with some new features and a new memory controller. The most important thing is that the performance of Kaby Lake G graphics is very competitive, and the HBM is playing a major role here.