Waiting for the 2018 MBP

[maflynn]

I wouldn’t say it feels cheap by any stretch, but it definitely feels less substantial and solid than the previous gen - the price to pay for more portable I suppose?

I think part of that is due to the new keyboard design, the key travel is not quite right imo. Then of course is the thinness of the laptop, and I wonder if the ginormous trackpad on the 15" also allows a certain amount of flexing especially given the thinness of the laptop

 

[Queen6]

Oh, you mean: unusable as in the Air & MacBook? All complete failures because of keyboard, lack of connectors, crappy displays, and the like. Strange though: why do I keep seeing them everywhere?

I always find it amusing when people bash laptops for being unusable and broken by design. Yet, those laptops are some of the few that actually have increasing sales in a contracting market. Sounds a bit like the iPhone X "flop" doomsday news. At the same time, Apple must be doing a good job because many people appreciate their products. The last few times I saw one of the "MBP killers" (an Asus and a Dell), I was appalled by the crap, flakey, rubby fingerprint cover around the keyboard and other "details" that should just be OK in products with that price.

Apple did decrease the battery size, battery life remained the same. Sure, they could've plonked in a terraced battery, if they had managed to build one on time. Sure, they should fix the keyboard. I think, with the class action suit, the message will be heard. But I can't blame any company on trying to hit the brakes on a multi-million device callback for a $700 repair each.

Oddly I hardly see the nMBP in the real world, with many I know holding onto the 2012 design or switching to the competition. Just returned from 6 weeks in Malaysia dealing with multiple global & local engineering companies nMBP count an outstanding zero? I wonder why...

There's no doomsday message regarding Apple, well unless your a Pro on it's platform, stuck with weak underperforming hardware. Apple + Pro that's sadly what's become amusing, now the MBP is little more than a fashionable toy.

Q-6

 

[leman]

more prone to failure; keyboards, blown speakers, cracking displays

Very true, but that is the sad reality of mass-produced computers. Every laptop out there has some sort of design issue — same is true to any laptop Apple ever product by the way. I'm not trying to talk their design issues down here, but its silly to portray these design as outright failures in a world where computers have widespread coil whine, flickering displays, don't get enough juice running their GPU or outright get set on fire.

Simple reduce the capacity by 25%, you have 25% less pool of power dip into, well unless you just strictly follow Apple's fantasy world guideline, in the meantime in the real world...

Reduce the capacity by 25%, increase the power efficiency by 30% (or more) and you'd have same battery life under mixed usage. Again, look up independent third-party reviews.
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There's no doomsday message regarding Apple, well unless your a Pro on it's platform, stuck with weak underperforming hardware. Apple + Pro that's sadly what's become amusing, now the MBP is little more than a fashionable toy.

Oh come on man, you are just discrediting yourself with this nonsense. The MBP comes with better CPU options than almost anything else on the market. And it doesn't throttle like most other laptops in its size category. I mean, look up reviews of Dell Precisions where the CPU clocks down by 30% just as you want to start doing some proper work.

I get it that you need a fast GPU for your work, but then again Apple was never a choice for this use case. For all intents and purposes, the 2016+ is a substantially more powerful laptop than any MBP before it, both in absolute and comparative terms. To claim otherwise is simply nonsensical.

 

[Hadron]

Oddly I hardly see the nMBP in the real world, with many I know holding onto the 2012 design or switching to the competition. Just returned from 6 weeks in Malaysia dealing with multiple global & local engineering companies nMBP count an outstanding zero? I wonder why...

I see them everywhere at work (academic scientist). Overall more of the previous design still, but this design has only been out 2 years so not long enough for the majority to have been replaced yet (at least by the frequency people churn such equipment in my field).

 

[Queen6]

Very true, but that is the sad reality of mass-produced computers. Every laptop out there has some sort of design issue — same is true to any laptop Apple ever product by the way. I'm not trying to talk their design issues down here, but its silly to portray these design as outright failures in a world where computers have widespread coil whine, flickering displays, don't get enough juice running their GPU or outright get set on fire.

Reduce the capacity by 25%, increase the power efficiency by 30% (or more) and you'd have same battery life under mixed usage. Again, look up independent third-party reviews.

For many of us the nMBP is an outright failure, being a seriously compromised product for the sake of the aesthetic, versus real-world productivity. I'm happy it works for you, equally for many of us we expect significant performance increase, not thinner less usable hardware & software.

I don't want an anaemic Ultrabook, I want a OS X portable platform that is performant & stable as do many others hence the decent, even MR now has forum for Mac alternatives, such is Apple's dilution of the platform

Step back 10 years, had someone said my primary OS would be Windows I'd have laughed at them, let alone the hardware. Either MS has it's act together or Apple has no longer any regard for the Pro user, take your pick...

What amuses most is that a more powerful MBP, more flexible MBP, a more usable/versatile MBP would benefit all profession's requiring serious usage. No one is suggesting a 5kg Workstation, rather a more flexible versatile notebook. Right now Apple is simply eradicating itself as provider of professional hardware, or to coin a phrase "painting itself into a corner" yet again...

Q-6
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I see them everywhere at work (academic scientist). Overall more of the previous design still, but this design has only been out 2 years so not long enough for the majority to have been replaced yet (at least by the frequency people churn such equipment in my field).

I can only recant my own personal experience, being a consultant quality engineer in heavy industry. Right now I'm observing fewer Mac's than ever, those that I engage with generally have little good to say about the nMBP...

Q-6

 

[koyoot]

Quick question, how the hell did you find this and what is this from. Also I doubt this can be real. I hope it is but unless you’re the magical Serban I will doubt you til WWDC. But good ol serban was maybe right on a few things so I’m hoping you’re discovery is correct. Also can you post the link I’m curious to the source.

CannonLake architecture has compatibility with LPDDR4. If PCH is taken out for Whiskey Lake, from this architecture, it MAY mean that there will be WHL support for LPDDR4. MAY - this word is the key.

 

[Queen6]

Oh come on man, you are just discrediting yourself with this nonsense. The MBP comes with better CPU options than almost anything else on the market. And it doesn't throttle like most other laptops in its size category. I mean, look up reviews of Dell Precisions where the CPU clocks down by 30% just as you want to start doing some proper work.

I get it that you need a fast GPU for your work, but then again Apple was never a choice for this use case. For all intents and purposes, the 2016+ is a substantially more powerful laptop than any MBP before it, both in absolute and comparative terms. To claim otherwise is simply nonsensical.

You only think the CPU is important and all the competition clock down? Storage & RAM are equally important, certainly more so than just being thinner. MBP is now in the same class as a PlayStation Pro, bigger numbers to impress the uninformed. After all 16Gb of RAM is more than enough, on board single storage solutions are more than enough, why? Apple tells you so...

Personally I don't need 32GB of RAM, however 16Gb is inadequate and punching up to 32Gb made a significant difference to the workflow. Pro with Apple simply means more cost, less features, reduced flexibility, bigger margin, little else...

Q-6

 

[PeterJP]

Oddly I hardly see the nMBP in the real world, with many I know holding onto the 2012 design or switching to the competition.

Strange. I see them everywhere, with an overwhelming majority using TB. And I frequent both the financial sector (yep, used there) as well as the local startup world here. People choose them over the macbook or Air because they're much more decent machines, both in form factor as well as in capabilities.

After all 16Gb of RAM is more than enough, on board single storage solutions are more than enough, why? Apple tells you so...

You are very right in pointing out that non-replaceable everything hurts. But it's like the phone batteries: it's not going to come back. I'm using an everything-fixed-in-place rMBP late 2013 at the moment and I was worried about it. Now, after 3 years of intensive use, not so much. I had both el-cheapo and brand-name Windows laptops give up sooner than that.

I'm afraid to say that the days of the DIY computer builder are as good as over, particularly in the laptop market. While Apple may make a modular mac Pro, I wouldn't hold my breath for a laptop a tier above the MBP. I wouldn't mind myself, I'd take a long hard look at one. But I'm afraid chances are very, very slim that's ever going to happen.

 

[leman]

I don't want an anaemic Ultrabook, I want a OS X portable platform that is performant & stable as do many others hence the decent, even MR now has forum for Mac alternatives, such is Apple's dilution of the platform

And this is why I say that you don't make much sense. An anaemic Ultrabook? Excuse me? In what alternative reality is a laptop equipped with an i7-7920HQ is considered "anaemic"?

What amuses most is that a more powerful MBP, more flexible MBP, a more usable/versatile MBP would benefit all profession's requiring serious usage.

You got a laptop equipped with fastest mobile CPU, with GPUs that is twice as fast as the previous gen, with most versatile port setup on the market, and you call it a "toy" because they made it more portable? This is completely irrational.

"painting itself into a corner" yet again...

They have very clearly shown that the new chassis can dissipate just as much heat as the old one, since its literally the same computer with the same class hardware, just made leaner and with optimised airflow. And since they won't be using mobile GPUs with TDP any higher then 40W for the next two years, I don't see how this reference makes any sence. Cylinder Mac Pro was very different, since they have underestimated how hot the desktop GPUs will become. This doesn't happen in mobile.

You only think the CPU is important and all the competition clock down? Storage & RAM are equally important, certainly more so than just being thinner [...] 16Gb is inadequate and punching up to 32Gb made a significant difference to the workflow

Storage: MBP has some of the fastest on the market. RAM: yes, 16GB is enough save for a very marginal group of people. I am more then sure that there are more users out there that value portability much higher than the possibility fo having 32GB RAM.

As to RAM: you have a dual-channel memory controller that maxes up at around 25GB/s. Your CPU can't use 32GB RAM efficiently. If your datasets are too large, you'll get into massive cache trashing and you performance will die horribly. Any workflow where consumer CPUs see benefit from having 32GB RAM is most likely due to using the RAM as a buffer, which in most cases means lazy programmers who can't be bothered to write proper code. Fun fact: you have to load data anyway from some point, so it doesn't make any difference whether you preload all of it into RAM or just process it in chunks where next batch is loaded while you process the previous one. In fact, streaming (second case) will most likely end up faster because of better cache and resource utilisation. If you truly need so much RAM for your algorithm, then you also need a very different CPU, more memory controllers, and more cache.

 

[EugW]

As to RAM: you have a dual-channel memory controller that maxes up at around 25GB/s. Your CPU can't use 32GB RAM efficiently. If your datasets are too large, you'll get into massive cache trashing and you performance will die horribly. Any workflow where consumer CPUs see benefit from having 32GB RAM is most likely due to using the RAM as a buffer, which in most cases means lazy programmers who can't be bothered to write proper code.

I agreed with most of your long post, but your argument here is a pet peeve of mine. This seems to be a common refrain: X amount of RAM is usually enough, and if you need more than x it's probably because of bad programming.

Well, even if that were true, that doesn't actually help any end user to say this. It's not as if they're going break into the developer's server, steal their source code, rewrite it, and recompile it, and then replace their binary with a magically more memory-efficient version. Most of us aren't coders anyway, so even if we had access to the source code, we wouldn't be able to do anything with it.

So, what is our solution? Get more RAM.

For the record, for my laptop, I don't need 32 GB RAM either. However, I would be unhappy if my main workhorse was limited to 16 GB in 2018. I have 24 GB in my 2017 iMac. So, I can definitely understand why some people who use MacBook Pros as their main (or only) drivers might want 32 GB in a new 2018 MacBook Pro, esp. if they want to keep it several years, as memory usage increases over the years.

I have 16 GB for my 12" MacBook. It seems odd that my secondary machine, which has an entry level Core m3 CPU, has as much RAM as the top-of-the-line MacBook Pro. But I also understand it's Intel's fault and why Apple won't do a 32 GB MacBook Pro in 2018, and I actually agree with Apple's choice here. I don't think there is much business sense for Apple to release a half-assed 32 GB MacBook Pro in 2018. It won't help their bottom line at all.

 

[Queen6]

Strange. I see them everywhere, with an overwhelming majority using TB. And I frequent both the financial sector (yep, used there) as well as the local startup world here. People choose them over the macbook or Air because they're much more decent machines, both in form factor as well as in capabilities.



You are very right in pointing out that non-replaceable everything hurts. But it's like the phone batteries: it's not going to come back. I'm using an everything-fixed-in-place rMBP late 2013 at the moment and I was worried about it. Now, after 3 years of intensive use, not so much. I had both el-cheapo and brand-name Windows laptops give up sooner than that.

I'm afraid to say that the days of the DIY computer builder are as good as over, particularly in the laptop market. While Apple may make a modular mac Pro, I wouldn't hold my breath for a laptop a tier above the MBP. I wouldn't mind myself, I'd take a long hard look at one. But I'm afraid chances are very, very slim that's ever going to happen.

What I miss most is scalability, unfortunately we'll and truly deceased with Apple.

Windows notebooks at the same price point generally fair the same IMHO. If prepared to purchase a MBP, why would one consider a cheap OEM alternative?

Very much agree, and highly unlikely Apple will release another tier of a more performant notebook...

Q-6

 

[linkgx1]

So with this MBP fiasco, I'm wondering if I should get Windows Laptop or wait for the new Macs. Will be using it for graphic design/web/app development. Ugh. My other choice would be an XPS 13.

 

[Momo13Drums]

Long time lurking this thread, first post. Let me say first that I've never owned a MBP or any mac computer. I've used iPhones and iPads for a long time but those are my only Apple products. I plan on purchasing a 2018 MBP, and I've been waiting a long time to do so. I'm not a "Pro" user I guess. All I do is audio production, video + photo editing, website building, gaming, etc.

I have a few questions about some stuff I keep seeing pop up in this thread:

1. I'm genuinely curious what kind of work are people doing that you couldn't do on a current 2017 or presumably a 2018 MBP? I don't mean this in a sarcastic way at all, I really am curious. I keep seeing people say things like "engineering" but could someone explain more in detail what that means or why it's impossible to accomplish on current or upcoming MBP?

I hear this kind of thing a lot in the photography/videography world - someone says you "can't film/photograph weddings with this camera because it lacks X or X" but in reality people have been and continue to use really old gear professionally and earn a living without having the newest and best stuff. Is it the same concept here, or is there something I'm missing? I've tested the 2017 MBP and it was blazing fast for my needs. Only reason I'm waiting for 2018 is because WWDC is right around the corner and I'd like to get the newest version if possible. I currently accomplish all my work without issue on a windows PC and laptop that are about 7 years old, so a 2018 MBP is going to be a monster in comparison for me personally. My biggest reason for switching is moving into Logic Pro X and Final Cut Pro.

2. Why are many of you upset about laptops becoming thinner? (assuming they work, I understand the keyboard issues). The 2017 MBP was amazingly thin when I tested it - I mean, again, for my personal uses (photography, video, music production, etc) this means a LOT of travelling. Weight reduction, thinness, etc is a really big deal to me. My girlfriend has a 2014 MBP and it's too fat and heavy. It would be cumbersome to travel with in a backpack along with full frame camera gear and lenses... but the 2017 seemed like a perfect travel companion. I imagine most "professionals" of ANY field travel a lot for their work, right?

 

[PeterJP]

Welcome, Momo!

1. I'm genuinely curious what kind of work are people doing that you couldn't do on a current 2017 or presumably a 2018 MBP? I don't mean this in a sarcastic way at all, I really am curious. I keep seeing people say things like "engineering" but could someone explain more in detail what that means or why it's impossible to accomplish on current or upcoming MBP?

Well, hardware is always advancing. It's kind of frustrating if you want to stay in the Apple ecosystem, yet you see that Windows laptops outperform Apple's top machines in both specs as well as in benchmarks. Wasn't Apple supposed to be top-end of the market?

Of course, that frustration doesn't take into account the fact that Apple has a superior feel in many ways (trackpad, screen, general fit&finish) and that it manages to push its hardware to the limits without heat problems. For me, those are as much part of the "top-end" positioning as pure specs.

I hear this kind of thing a lot in the photography/videography world - someone says you "can't film/photograph weddings with this camera because it lacks X or X"

Yeah, the photography world is very good at that, too. I've been into more artisanal surroundings (drawing, painting) and the same thing happens there ("This brush is so much better than that one!"), but on a much smaller scale. It seems to be the case that when technology is involved, people start overestimating the equipment. Of course, Henri Cartier-Bresson and Ansel Adams used way worse equipment than even the current iPhone cameras. And yes, you can do pro photography with an iPhone alright. Or with a Lomo. Just like you can train neural networks on an Intel 80486. It's just much more enjoyable or practical with better gear.

2. Why are many of you upset about laptops becoming thinner?

In my opinion, people overestimate the trade-offs that have allegedly been made. Yes, the battery is smaller (but battery life is the same). Yes, the keyboard has problems (but many people actually prefer it).

I used to be in the PC builder camp. I bought decent CPU, memory, storage that I needed now. When I needed to upgrade, prices were better. But nowadays, I can't be bothered. I'm firmly in the "buy now what you need in 3-5 years" camp now.

 

[MrGunnyPT]

Long time lurking this thread, first post. Let me say first that I've never owned a MBP or any mac computer. I've used iPhones and iPads for a long time but those are my only Apple products. I plan on purchasing a 2018 MBP, and I've been waiting a long time to do so. I'm not a "Pro" user I guess. All I do is audio production, video + photo editing, website building, gaming, etc.

I have a few questions about some stuff I keep seeing pop up in this thread:

1. I'm genuinely curious what kind of work are people doing that you couldn't do on a current 2017 or presumably a 2018 MBP? I don't mean this in a sarcastic way at all, I really am curious. I keep seeing people say things like "engineering" but could someone explain more in detail what that means or why it's impossible to accomplish on current or upcoming MBP?

I hear this kind of thing a lot in the photography/videography world - someone says you "can't film/photograph weddings with this camera because it lacks X or X" but in reality people have been and continue to use really old gear professionally and earn a living without having the newest and best stuff. Is it the same concept here, or is there something I'm missing? I've tested the 2017 MBP and it was blazing fast for my needs. Only reason I'm waiting for 2018 is because WWDC is right around the corner and I'd like to get the newest version if possible. I currently accomplish all my work without issue on a windows PC and laptop that are about 7 years old, so a 2018 MBP is going to be a monster in comparison for me personally. My biggest reason for switching is moving into Logic Pro X and Final Cut Pro.

2. Why are many of you upset about laptops becoming thinner? (assuming they work, I understand the keyboard issues). The 2017 MBP was amazingly thin when I tested it - I mean, again, for my personal uses (photography, video, music production, etc) this means a LOT of travelling. Weight reduction, thinness, etc is a really big deal to me. My girlfriend has a 2014 MBP and it's too fat and heavy. It would be cumbersome to travel with in a backpack along with full frame camera gear and lenses... but the 2017 seemed like a perfect travel companion. I imagine most "professionals" of ANY field travel a lot for their work, right?

We always want the newest and better, plus WWDC is just around the corner.

Personally I don't accept buying a 2k machine (13") with dual core setups in 2018. Especially when competition the is using Kaby Lake-G or a Quad Core coffe lake & DDR4

 

[leman]

This seems to be a common refrain: X amount of RAM is usually enough, and if you need more than x it's probably because of bad programming. Well, even if that were true, that doesn't actually help any end user to say this.

This is very true and I agree that my argument isn't all that helpful.

In the end, I think, it boils down to the following — if you are someone who on regular basis runs workflows that really need 32GB of RAM (heavy duty vide editors etc.), then a portable laptop is a suboptimal tool for the job to begin with.
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Well, hardware is always advancing. It's kind of frustrating if you want to stay in the Apple ecosystem, yet you see that Windows laptops outperform Apple's top machines in both specs as well as in benchmarks. Wasn't Apple supposed to be top-end of the market?

Performance-wise, gaming laptops and workstation laptops have always outperformed the MacBook Pro. It was never intended as a top-end of the market, if you look at pure performance (unless you look at CPU only, where Apple traditionally offers the fastest chips). Rather, its a very flexible premium business laptop that combines high mobility with very good performance.

 

[Momo13Drums]

Welcome, Momo!



Well, hardware is always advancing. It's kind of frustrating if you want to stay in the Apple ecosystem, yet you see that Windows laptops outperform Apple's top machines in both specs as well as in benchmarks. Wasn't Apple supposed to be top-end of the market?

Of course, that frustration doesn't take into account the fact that Apple has a superior feel in many ways (trackpad, screen, general fit&finish) and that it manages to push its hardware to the limits without heat problems. For me, those are as much part of the "top-end" positioning as pure specs.



Yeah, the photography world is very good at that, too. I've been into more artisanal surroundings (drawing, painting) and the same thing happens there ("This brush is so much better than that one!"), but on a much smaller scale. It seems to be the case that when technology is involved, people start overestimating the equipment. Of course, Henri Cartier-Bresson and Ansel Adams used way worse equipment than even the current iPhone cameras. And yes, you can do pro photography with an iPhone alright. Or with a Lomo. Just like you can train neural networks on an Intel 80486. It's just much more enjoyable or practical with better gear.



In my opinion, people overestimate the trade-offs that have allegedly been made. Yes, the battery is smaller (but battery life is the same). Yes, the keyboard has problems (but many people actually prefer it).

I used to be in the PC builder camp. I bought decent CPU, memory, storage that I needed now. When I needed to upgrade, prices were better. But nowadays, I can't be bothered. I'm firmly in the "buy now what you need in 3-5 years" camp now.

Thanks for the reply. I get it, too. I spent many years building PC's and always wanting the best I could get my hands on for gaming, video production, audio, etc. I think maybe for me personally computers have just long surpassed the constant need to upgrade for those tasks which I complete, which probably makes me a "non-pro" user in the bigger picture. I'm MUCH more focused on the things you mentioned these days - screen, fit and finish, ease of use, portability, trackpad, etc etc. Any modern MBP would fit and surpass my technical requirements, and I realize I'm paying a premium for the above mentioned features. But hey, time is money and I like being comfortable and not futzing with stuff, especially when traveling. It will be a huge upgrade for someone like me, and I don't anticipate needing another laptop for another 5-7 years again.

We always want the newest and better, plus WWDC is just around the corner.

Personally I don't accept buying a 2k machine (13") with dual core setups in 2018. Especially when competition the is using Kaby Lake-G or a Quad Core coffe lake & DDR4

We always want the newest and better, plus WWDC is just around the corner.

Personally I don't accept buying a 2k machine (13") with dual core setups in 2018. Especially when competition the is using Kaby Lake-G or a Quad Core coffe lake & DDR4

I can respect that as well. It is hard to swallow paying 2-3k for a machine that spec-wise is maybe not up to par with windows offerings on the market. I've never used anything but windows machines, and I like windows. I'll probably always have a windows PC in my house for gaming if nothing else. But I have found for my personal uses through using friends/gf/mentor MBP's that a lot of the software just can't be compared to. Something like Logic Pro is full featured, but so much easier and smoother to work with than Pro Tools IMO. Same could be said for something like Sony Vegas vs. Final Cut Pro.

For the record I think Apple charges way too much for the machines, the "Apple tax" is too high, but it seems like you pay for the software and the experience, rather than the hardware. Just like iPhone IMO.

 

[MrGunnyPT]

Thanks for the reply. I get it, too. I spent many years building PC's and always wanting the best I could get my hands on for gaming, video production, audio, etc. I think maybe for me personally computers have just long surpassed the constant need to upgrade for those tasks which I complete, which probably makes me a "non-pro" user in the bigger picture. I'm MUCH more focused on the things you mentioned these days - screen, fit and finish, ease of use, portability, trackpad, etc etc. Any modern MBP would fit and surpass my technical requirements, and I realize I'm paying a premium for the above mentioned features. But hey, time is money and I like being comfortable and not futzing with stuff, especially when traveling. It will be a huge upgrade for someone like me, and I don't anticipate needing another laptop for another 5-7 years again.




I can respect that as well. It is hard to swallow paying 2-3k for a machine that spec-wise is maybe not up to par with windows offerings on the market. I've never used anything but windows machines, and I like windows. I'll probably always have a windows PC in my house for gaming if nothing else. But I have found for my personal uses through using friends/gf/mentor MBP's that a lot of the software just can't be compared to. Something like Logic Pro is full featured, but so much easier and smoother to work with than Pro Tools IMO. Same could be said for something like Sony Vegas vs. Final Cut Pro.

For the record I think Apple charges way too much for the machines, the "Apple tax" is too high, but it seems like you pay for the software and the experience, rather than the hardware. Just like iPhone IMO.

I also have a Gaming PC, hence why I want a Mac laptop to go with the rest of my ecosystem out of gaming

 

[shoebobs]

1. I'm genuinely curious what kind of work are people doing that you couldn't do on a current 2017 or presumably a 2018 MBP? I don't mean this in a sarcastic way at all, I really am curious. I keep seeing people say things like "engineering" but could someone explain more in detail what that means or why it's impossible to accomplish on current or upcoming MBP?

I think most users could get by with the specs of a 2017 and what will be in the 2018. The problem I think for a lot of us is we look at specs of competitors and feel like apple is short changing us. Personally, I'm a software developer, and I know I could get by with a 2017. My MBP provided by work is a 2015 with 16GB RAM, and I've never felt I can't get what I need out of it in order to get my work done. However, for buying a machine with my own money, I want the most I can get when spending $2k-$3k+ on a machine. And I want a machine that will be specced to last 4-5 years as I am rather frugal when it comes to spending money. I run a lot of applications in virtual machines or containers, and the more resources I can throw around, the better. 32GB RAM and a hexacore processor would be right in the sweet spot for me.

2. Why are many of you upset about laptops becoming thinner? (assuming they work, I understand the keyboard issues). The 2017 MBP was amazingly thin when I tested it - I mean, again, for my personal uses (photography, video, music production, etc) this means a LOT of travelling. Weight reduction, thinness, etc is a really big deal to me. My girlfriend has a 2014 MBP and it's too fat and heavy. It would be cumbersome to travel with in a backpack along with full frame camera gear and lenses... but the 2017 seemed like a perfect travel companion. I imagine most "professionals" of ANY field travel a lot for their work, right?

I think the current line of MBPs is the best design they've ever had from a purely aesthetics and portability standpoint, but it was maybe just a bit too aggressive too soon. As you mentioned, there are issues with the keyboards, and no design/quest for thinness is justifiable if it sacrifices functionality or reliability. I'm glad I've waited so far to jump into this generation, because clearly they have some issues and are still working through them. Once they get it right though, it will be a truly impressive machine in terms of a balancing power and portability.

 

[leman]

T
For the record I think Apple charges way too much for the machines, the "Apple tax" is too high, but it seems like you pay for the software and the experience, rather than the hardware. Just like iPhone IMO.

Its a bit more complicated. There are some components in Apple laptops that are more exclusive and costly compared to some other brands. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are "better" (as in, faster), but the costs add up obviously. For instance, display tech — Apple uses rarer 16:10 resolutions and custom tech panels that are most likely more expensive than many of the mainstream laptops. The GPUs in the 15" model are selected Polaris chips that have been custom-processed to make them physically smaller and more efficient. LPDDR3X RAM costs more than standard DDR3/DDR4. Full-specced thunderbolt controllers in the 15" MBP cost more than what others use. Even the controversial keyboard is probably more expensive since it uses these custom rather complex switches etc. It also used to be the case that they used higher-end electronic components (capacitors etc.) for their mainboards, I don't know whether other brands have caught up there.

Again, don't get me wrong, Apple is still making tons of money selling you these laptops, and the fact that your machine is having a more expensive controllers inside doesn't nessesarily make it worth more to the buyer, but that is at least partially where the cost comes from. A 15" MBP is simply more expensive to make than say, a 15" Dell XPS.

By the way, comparable laptops that also use highly customised components are priced similarly. A Surface Book 2 is actually more expensive than a MBP...

 

[wxkkeup]

edit: i dont mean to interrupt any conversations going on but,*

I’m really excited for the upcoming event, but thinking about it is unsettling.. for me.

I just wish that Apple could release a truly innovative product that fulfills the needs of all of us. It must feel awful to continue waiting on and anticipating the announcement of this ‘thing’ that may never exist.

Like.. either buy this thing or buy something else. Don’t be the person who is waiting for forever..cuz that sucks 🙁 Make a choice and move on godammit

 

[Loge]

As to RAM: you have a dual-channel memory controller that maxes up at around 25GB/s. Your CPU can't use 32GB RAM efficiently. If your datasets are too large, you'll get into massive cache trashing and you performance will die horribly. Any workflow where consumer CPUs see benefit from having 32GB RAM is most likely due to using the RAM as a buffer, which in most cases means lazy programmers who can't be bothered to write proper code.

And yet I can use my work laptop with 32GB of DDR4 RAM, and use datasets well over 16GB and I don't see any of this cache trashing or anything dying horribly. Sure Apple can choose not to offer this, but let's not pretend that 32GB is not doable on a laptop.

 

[leman]

And yet I can use my work laptop with 32GB of DDR4 RAM, and use datasets well over 16GB and I don't see any of this cache trashing or anything dying horribly. Sure Apple can choose not to offer this, but let's not pretend that 32GB is not doable on a laptop.

I would never claim that 32GB is not doable on a laptop. What I am saying that majority of applications have predictable memory accesses which means that the data does not have to be RAM-resident (as you can prefetch it from disk just before its used). And an application written this way would have the benefit of processing arbitrary amounts of data without any slowdown. The two cases where you really need a lot of RAM is a) generally unpredictable memory access (in which case a consumer CPU will constantly access the data outside the cache, killing performance) and b) unpredictable access to larger data blocks which then get used for a while. The b) is indeed the case where there is no way around having more RAM, but my guess is that there are not so many real use cases of it (databases are one, but do you really need to keep a large database RAM-resident?)

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that the number of users who are interested in a thin and light laptop and at the same time really need 32GB for their work tends to get rather exaggerated. Most of these people need a beefier machine to begin with. This leaves a small group of users whom I deeply sympathise with — its an unfortunate situation and the compromise Apple decided to make certainly was not in your favor. That said, claiming that the MBP is a laptop not suitable for professional work because it can't be equipped with 32GB of RAM is simply ridiculous. Its not a holy cow. Its a computer with its advantages and drawbacks. If it doesn't suit you, buy something else.
[doublepost=1526671480][/doublepost]

I just wish that Apple could release a truly innovative product that fulfills the needs of all of us

Welcome to the real world 😀 Since when there are things that fulfil the needs of all of us? Apple designs around the common denominator, not around maximising usability for a specific use case. The MacBook Pro has always been a true jack of all trades, which is probably the core reason of its popularity.

 

[richinaus]

I would never claim that 32GB is not doable on a laptop. What I am saying that majority of applications have predictable memory accesses which means that the data does not have to be RAM-resident (as you can prefetch it from disk just before its used). And an application written this way would have the benefit of processing arbitrary amounts of data without any slowdown. The two cases where you really need a lot of RAM is a) generally unpredictable memory access (in which case a consumer CPU will constantly access the data outside the cache, killing performance) and b) unpredictable access to larger data blocks which then get used for a while. The b) is indeed the case where there is no way around having more RAM, but my guess is that there are not so many real use cases of it (databases are one, but do you really need to keep a large database RAM-resident?)

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that the number of users who are interested in a thin and light laptop and at the same time really need 32GB for their work tends to get rather exaggerated. Most of these people need a beefier machine to begin with. This leaves a small group of users whom I deeply sympathise with — its an unfortunate situation and the compromise Apple decided to make certainly was not in your favor. That said, claiming that the MBP is a laptop not suitable for professional work because it can't be equipped with 32GB of RAM is simply ridiculous. Its not a holy cow. Its a computer with its advantages and drawbacks. If it doesn't suit you, buy something else.
[doublepost=1526671480][/doublepost]

Welcome to the real world 😀 Since when there are things that fulfil the needs of all of us? Apple designs around the common denominator, not around maximising usability for a specific use case. The MacBook Pro has always been a true jack of all trades, which is probably the core reason of its popularity.

Glad you can be bothered to keep saying this Leman as I got a bit bored. Maybe should have the same copy / paste response set up for the thread 🙂

No product is perfect for everyone. Too heavy, not enough power, too big, poorly made etc.
This is why there is a market with choice. If the macbookpro doesn’t meet your needs get something else. It’s quite simple really.

I understand though that all the frustration is that people want to stay with Apple but they don’t provide what they need.

 

[stevemiller]

I mean by the same logic, wouldn't the Taptic Engine also be pointless on the iPhone, trackpads and so on, since it's usually "only" giving you feedback once you have already pressed something?

The main benefit of a Taptic Engine for the Touch Bar would essentially be the same as it is on other devices where it's used: it would give you a more stimulatory feedback to the action you were trying to perform. Instead of only the visual feedback from the button changing color or something happening on-screen, you would immediately get a sensory feedback that you were "pressing/tapping the right thing", you would instantly feel a haptic confirmation in your fingertips instead of having to wait for and rely on visual cues alone. IMO it would be one of the best additions Apple could make towards the TB in its current state, as the lack of any immediate sensory feedback when touching the solid, immobile glass surface is one of its biggest issues right now.

right now haptic feedback on literally every other touch surface apple produces only happens on a hard press, not a tap. the vast majority of touch interactions on iPhones, iPads, and trackpads are taps and drags.

so they either break convention and add it to a tap, or now they are now also adding a pressure sensitive element to the touchbar, and requiring you to press harder to activate those widgets.

to me, this makes the thing even less appealing. now not only do you have to look away from the screen and scan a non-tactile, always changing set of UI widgets, but also press it forcefully until you get a feedback thump.

I mean maybe for some people that click is super satisfying, but for me it doesn't add anything functional.