Waiting for the 2018 MBP

[afir93]

Honestly I think the keyboard replacement program is a pretty good way of handling the situation, sure it comes several months later than it should but it eliminates the biggest (and previously justified) complaint that people had with this issue: that Apple had let the customers pay for their own design flaw.

This program means that no-one has to be afraid anymore to buy one of the new MBPs/MBs just because of the risk of keyboard failure, because in the unlikely case that they do experience issues later down the line, Apple will fix them free of charge as it should be. It also means that nobody has to buy AppleCare+ anymore with the MBPs just to protect themselves from having to pay a hefty fee for the keyboard later down the line, which was previously a common advise towards people buying these machines.

It also means that we here on this thread can now look forward to the next MBP generation more optimistically, because in the unlikely case that the next generation of MBPs won't have less failure-prone keyboards (and there's a high chance that they will), they would most certainly get added to the replacement program.

 

[maflynn]

Honestly I think the keyboard replacement program is a pretty good way of handling the situation, sure it comes several months later than it should but it eliminates the biggest (and previously justified) complaint that people had with this issue: that Apple had let the customers pay for their own design flaw.

Agreed, Apple should have been a little quicker but they did the right thing by instituting it.

This program means that no-one has to be afraid anymore to buy one of the new MBPs/MBs just because of the risk of keyboard failure

To a point, just consider the 2011 GPU repair program, they "fixed" the 2011 MBPs by replacing the logic board with the same flawed GPU and so many owners went through multiple repairs and as the inventory of 2011 machines dried up, the repaired machines failed faster and faster. I'm not saying that will happen now, but it is something to consider. I'm still hesitant, because I'd rather have a keyboard that doesn't fail in the first place, but I get what you're saying. This should remove a lot of fear over the purchase.

 

[stevemiller]

Hope the keyboard replacement program isn't being instituted because they know a proper fix is still s long way off

 

[John-117]

I'm hoping they're not replacing defective keyboards with the same prone-to-breaking unit..

I would assume these repairs all getting the same parts that are still not entirely fixed (2016 & 2017). A fixed revision will likely/hopefully come in the next hardware update.

 

[Falhófnir]

Agreed, Apple should have been a little quicker but they did the right thing by instituting it.


To a point, just consider the 2011 GPU repair program, they "fixed" the 2011 MBPs by replacing the logic board with the same flawed GPU and so many owners went through multiple repairs and as the inventory of 2011 machines dried up, the repaired machines failed faster and faster. I'm not saying that will happen now, but it is something to consider. I'm still hesitant, because I'd rather have a keyboard that doesn't fail in the first place, but I get what you're saying. This should remove a lot of fear over the purchase.

Must say as of now I’d be much happier giving a 2018/2019 a go, the keyboard isn’t my favourite even leaving the reliability aside as I have often said, but knowing Apple will take care of me in the way I have come to expect should I experience a problem is reassuring. The only issue now is whether to wait out the supposed ARM transition or get a 2018 to see me through to gen 2 or 3 or the ARMbooks (assuming it does happen in 2020 as rumoured).

 

[fokmik]

So its kind of official that the new upcoming models will have a different keyboard

 

[Ma2k5]

So its kind of official that the new upcoming models will have a different keyboard

Yep and now I’ve gone from not interested at all, to very interested to see what they come up with. A keyboard revision and them finally releasing their new battery design (for more capacity) would make it hard to resist. After that the only popular areas to improve would be:

- Webcam which is a decade out of date (Include FaceID?)
- Ports and MagSafe solutions (Include a reliable dock?)
- Touchbar to be more usable for coding/developers. Raised profile and feed back required.

 

[chleuasme]

Hell, been waiting for a quad 28 W 15" MBP with Iris GPU for too long!

 

[clangers23]

Honestly I think the keyboard replacement program is a pretty good way of handling the situation, sure it comes several months later than it should but it eliminates the biggest (and previously justified) complaint that people had with this issue: that Apple had let the customers pay for their own design flaw.

This program means that no-one has to be afraid anymore to buy one of the new MBPs/MBs just because of the risk of keyboard failure, because in the unlikely case that they do experience issues later down the line, Apple will fix them free of charge as it should be. It also means that nobody has to buy AppleCare+ anymore with the MBPs just to protect themselves from having to pay a hefty fee for the keyboard later down the line, which was previously a common advise towards people buying these machines.

It also means that we here on this thread can now look forward to the next MBP generation more optimistically, because in the unlikely case that the next generation of MBPs won't have less failure-prone keyboards (and there's a high chance that they will), they would most certainly get added to the replacement program.

It's welcome but it's still all cynical and I'm not suggesting Apple are alone in this. They've waited until a class action lawsuit, many people have been forced to pay hundred's of dollars, pounds, etc, to rectify an obvious design defect. They've taken this approach of playing the percentages every time there's a design or manufacturing defect discovered.

These faulty laptops are still for sale and Apple has even just spent time promoting them through recent commercials.

At least as others have suggested it may mean they have a redesigned dust resistant version of the keyboard ready to go so might be pointing to an imminent update? If they're now admitting a 'small' percentage of their devices are defective they should be releasing an updated range of laptops immediately.

 

[A_ardvark]

At least as others have suggested it may mean they have a redesigned dust resistant version of the keyboard ready to go so might be pointing to an imminent update? If they're now admitting a 'small' percentage of their devices are defective they should be releasing an updated range of laptops immediately.

I think so too. They are now selling a product with an acknowledged defect. Even if they have promised support, I have trouble imagining they would go into the back to school season with this model. Students are a major MacBook demographic. I know people like to disparage apple consumers as sheep, but most students google a product before they buy it. Broken macbook keyboards have been the news for a while, time to get a new model out asap.

I think the wildcard is if they will release a new model with keyboard fix and spec bump, which could happen in July. If the keyboard is visibly different or other design elements have changed, then later in the year makes more sense.

 

[maflynn]

They are now selling a product with an acknowledged defect.

I hadn't thought of it that way. As of right now, Apple is now knowingly selling a product with a defective keyboard, so that leads to some credence that a new (or different) keyboard should be around the corner

 

[Mr. Dee]

That might be why we didn't see the update at WWDC.

The issues I have, is that in order to properly discern whether the keyboard has been properly fixed, I'll need to wait to see how the 2018 MBP does over the course of time, i.e., wait and see if people complain about wonky keyboards. Its my opinion that we're looking at the fall at the earliest for a new MBP and then add in wait time.

So I can wait 6, maybe 8 months and then spend almost 3k sometime in 2019, or I can spend 2k today and get a window's machine that out performs what ever apple can put together.

I ordered and received a 15" Razer Blade last week and I've been putting it though its paces and so far I'm impressed. I'm only 5 days into my 14 day return period and I've not made any final determination as to whether I'll keep it. So far it makes sense for me to keep it and use that instead of waiting and hoping to see what apple may do.

Apple is likely to revise the MBP again by WWDC 2019, so might as wait until then.
[doublepost=1529784635][/doublepost]

Apple will never do that. They will improve it, but they won't go back. They have never done in their entire history.

<clears throat> 2019 Mac Pro.
<clears throat> iPod shuffle

 

[youdontsay]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brooke...rmance-release-date-price-specs/#24b502d32e09

 

[CodeJoy]

I hadn't thought of it that way. As of right now, Apple is now knowingly selling a product with a defective keyboard, so that leads to some credence that a new (or different) keyboard should be around the corner

...unless they have already started manufacturing the 2017 models with the refreshed keyboard, like some have been suggesting here.
[doublepost=1529787349][/doublepost]

Honestly I think the keyboard replacement program is a pretty good way of handling the situation, sure it comes several months later than it should but it eliminates the biggest (and previously justified) complaint that people had with this issue: that Apple had let the customers pay for their own design flaw.

Heh, well about 18 months late lol. It's a bit weird if the keyboard is indeed the reason why the 2018's are late, but who knows. Or rather... knowing all the stupid reasons for why things can get delayed in a corporate environment it's not exactly weird at all, it's just not up to the level of performance that I'd like to see.

 

[Queen6]

I hadn't thought of it that way. As of right now, Apple is now knowingly selling a product with a defective keyboard, so that leads to some credence that a new (or different) keyboard should be around the corner

That's the bigger issue, Apple is knowingly selling premium product with a recognised issue. Visit the store and staff will smile, follow instruction and blatantly lie that the MBP has no issue. Apple needs to address it's corporate culture, first and foremost start being honest with it's customer's...

Q-6

 

[A_ardvark]

...unless they have already started manufacturing the 2017 models with the refreshed keyboard, like some have been suggesting here.

I've seen a few comments about a second revision to the 2017 design, but nothing substantiated so far. Only Apple has the serial numbers to distinguish between keyboards that have been 'fixed' and those that might still fail.

I'd say that even if they do have a fix, they have a PR issue. Better to release a spec bump with the revised keyboard, then to continue selling models that they have admitted are problematic. The ad campaign seems like a clear effort on their part to turn the tide of opinion. Now with a keyboard fix in play, the headlines for new models will be about speed boosts not hardware failures.

The two potential obstacles to summer release seem to be GPU's--is Vega ready?--and the Macbook Air redesign. If they want to refresh the entire line so that it makes more sense, then later in the year seems plausible.

 

[CodeJoy]

I just hope it’s going to be a “leap” and maybe some of this “innovation” stuff
Because right now the only thing that keeps me from switching to a non Apple Laptop is the OS.

There is plenty of great new Laptop Hardware out there, 4 Core 13” 6 Core 15” with SSD’s (with 2x NVMe) and RAM (up to 32GB) modules I can just upgrade down the road. And hey they even come with really nice GPU’s. Don't get me started on IO....

Just my 2 cent’s. It’s for sure not the Hardware that keeps me from switching.

I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to expect Apple to innovate the Mac hardware. Mac computers have never been particularly interesting from a hardware perspective. There's oh so much that they *could* do, but they rarely take advantage of this. Adding more and faster storage, CPU, RAM, GPU, etc. doesn't really count in my book. There's nothing innovative about that. (from Apple's perspective)
[doublepost=1529788301][/doublepost]

That's the bigger issue, Apple is knowingly selling premium product with a recognised issue. Visit the store and staff will smile, follow instruction and blatantly lie that the MBP has no issue. Apple needs to address it's corporate culture, first and foremost start being honest with it's customer's...

...or maybe customers should revise their vendor policies... mine prevents me from buying from a smiling salesperson.
[doublepost=1529788829][/doublepost]

I've seen a few comments about a second revision to the 2017 design, but nothing substantiated so far. Only Apple has the serial numbers to distinguish between keyboards that have been 'fixed' and those that might still fail.

I'd say that even if they do have a fix, they have a PR issue. Better to release a spec bump with the revised keyboard, then to continue selling models that they have admitted are problematic. The ad campaign seems like a clear effort on their part to turn the tide of opinion. Now with a keyboard fix in play, the headlines for new models will be about speed boosts not hardware failures.

The two potential obstacles to summer release seem to be GPU's--is Vega ready?--and the Macbook Air redesign. If they want to refresh the entire line so that it makes more sense, then later in the year seems plausible.

I'm not so convinced that Apple has a PR issue. Customers have an issue with Apple PR -- that I can get, but I'm not convinced Apple is doing anything other than just following their plan. The keyboard thing could have escalated into an issue, but with this new repair program it probably won't. Remember that Apple (and other businesses) don't exist to make customers feel good or to have good PR or to create good products (although most companies probably start out that way). A company like Apple exists to sell products for as much as possible to as many as possible, while manufacturing and supporting them for as little as possible. That's how free market business works. Something like a repair program for keyboard is only ever going to happen if the cost of that program is lower than the cost of not having that program. Apparently we're at that point now.

 

[maflynn]

...unless they have already started manufacturing the 2017 models with the refreshed keyboard, like some have been suggesting here.

It would have been useful to have apple mention that along with the repair program. Without such verbiage, its just conjecture and more believable to assume that the keyboard has not changed

 

[CodeJoy]

It would have been useful to have apple mention that along with the repair program. Without such verbiage, its just conjecture and more believable to assume that the keyboard has not changed

I agree that it would have been useful for you and me as potential customers, but I can see how Apple could possibly have a different agenda. Personally I'm not in a hurry to believe or not believe until there's clear data. Just open to the possibility.

Edit: Maybe previously potential customers... I'm not sure if I'm a potential customer anymore. Maybe and maybe not.

 

[Queen6]

It would have been useful to have apple mention that along with the repair program. Without such verbiage, its just conjecture and more believable to assume that the keyboard has not changed

History tells us that Apple will continue to replace poorly designed components with identical items, with little regard for the inconvenience to the customer. Until Apple is forced by a court of law to cease such aberrant behavior it will continue to repeat over and over...

Q-6
[doublepost=1529790325][/doublepost]

I'm not sure if I'm a potential customer anymore. Maybe and maybe not.

Don't think so, Apple is simply untrustworthy as a provider of professional hardware & software, serving itself far more than it's customers...

Q-6

 

[CodeJoy]

Don't think so, Apple is simply untrustworthy as a provider of professional hardware & software, serving itself far more than it's customers...

Sure. But for me Microsoft are even worse, and I'm actively trying to move off of Windows for anything other than gaming. That leaves Linux, and while trustworthy, it comes with other issues. I might actually just not buy a laptop at all, since it's more something I want than something I really need.

 

[Nismo73]

And they waited a comfortable amount of time after WWDC to mention the keyboard issue; they knew this was an issue for a while and were holding back.

 

[Queen6]

Sure. But for me Microsoft are even worse, and I'm actively trying to move off of Windows for anything other than gaming. That leaves Linux, and while trustworthy, it comes with other issues. I might actually just not buy a laptop at all, since it's more something I want than something I really need.

Personally I'm fine with MS, being far more transparent. One can take care of matters you don't care for with a little knowledge. The concern with Apple is it solely serves itself, promising yet never delivering; desktop OS is now far less stable, hardware less performant purely focused the aesthetic to impress the Starbuck's crowd to the cost of those that need computational performance.

Apple used to have a good mix; ultraportable, mainstream & Pro/Prosumer, today it's all about the WOW factor, thinner, thinner, thinner at the cost of usability, performance and reliability. Frankly I also believe Apple is clueless to it's professional audience's needs, Apple either needs to get in the game or stop BS'ing, as it just embarrassing itself in the eyes of many...

Q-6

 

[CodeJoy]

Personally I'm fine with MS, being far more transparent. One can take care of matters you don't care for with a little knowledge.

This used to be the case, but I find it's decreasingly so. With recent updates to Windows 10, I'm no longer in control of what software gets installed on my computer. Updates get installed with or without my consent, and often without even informing me. What's worse, my computer also gets rebooted without my consent. Without regard to any work in progress, or other reasons that rebooting at that time may be a really bad idea. You get notifications, but if you miss them you're out of luck. And even if you see them..... for me it got to the point where I considered setting an alarm on my phone to prevent my computer from being rebooted. But that's really messed up. That's not a desired use pattern for me.

On one install I tried removing the adware, the candy crushes, the spyware and all that is mandated by Windows. Turns out it reinstalls it and reactivates the spyware, making it quite a bother to keep it off. Not sure that it's worth the trouble. But I'm also not particularly happy about not being allowed control over my own computer anymore. Maybe there's a way to actually regain control over it, but how many days or weeks of work would it take?

End result, I'm just not going to trust Windows with anything important if I can at all avoid it. Not sure that Apple is a whole lot better, but it's at least not discarding my data at its leisure.

 

[Queen6]

This used to be the case, but I find it's decreasingly so. With recent updates to Windows 10, I'm no longer in control of what software gets installed on my computer. Updates get installed with or without my consent, and often without even informing me. What's worse, my computer also gets rebooted without my consent. Without regard to any work in progress, or other reasons that rebooting at that time may be a really bad idea. You get notifications, but if you miss them you're out of luck. And even if you see them..... for me it got to the point where I considered setting an alarm on my phone to prevent my computer from being rebooted. But that's really messed up. That's not a desired use pattern for me.

On one install I tried removing the adware, the candy crushes, the spyware and all that is mandated by Windows. Turns out it reinstalls it and reactivates the spyware, making it quite a bother to keep it off. Not sure that it's worth the trouble. But I'm also not particularly happy about not being allowed control over my own computer anymore. Maybe there's a way to actually regain control over it, but how many days or weeks of work would it take?

End result, I'm just not going to trust Windows with anything important if I can at all avoid it. Not sure that Apple is a whole lot better, but it's at least not discarding my data at its leisure.

I use both W10 Home and Pro, anything uninstalled remains uninstalled. Auto updates are easily deferred in W10 Pro or by simply setting the connection to "Metered" this will halt all but critical updates, everything MS Store, Office, OS etc. Problem with Windows is the learning curve...

When I work it's generally in the field for 4-6 weeks, I have never had a random reboot under W10, being always in control of the OS. macOS disaster; guaranteed to crash in a matter of days with subsequent data loss...

Q-6