Waiting for the 2018 MBP

[leman]

Oh, they've been selling a more powerful machine that's also a 2-in-1 with stylus support, a comfy keyboard, a 4K touchscreen, VEGA GPU, and at a rather affordable price? Somehow I must have missed the news of that Apple machine hitting the market.

The major criticisms of the 2016/2017 MBP were: too thin, smaller battery, no legacy ports, low-travel keyboard. People were literally saying "I am considering Dell instead because it doesn't have all these drawbacks". The Dell XPS repeats all the design decisions of the 2016/2017 MBP (albeit 14 months later), and of course adds its own details, like the 2-in-1 format, if you want something like that (Apple doesn't). The package is 65W total (the MBP has 80W CPU/GPU combined), so it is still the question about how powerful its going to be exactly. Oh, and BTW — available in April, which is over three months away.

As to "rather affordable" — the base price does not include the HiDPI screen and comes with 128GB SSD. We can only guess at this point how much the 4K configuration will cost.

It seems that Dell also wants to release "proper" XPS 15" with hex-core Coffee Lake (https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-Dell-XPS-15-2-in-1-is-real-and-it-sure-runs-hot.269900.0.html) once those are available, I gather from this that these CPUs are not coming too soon. Which puts Apple in an awkward position again. They can try to negotiate custom configs of the Kaby Lake G for the 15" MBP, or they can wait for Coffee Lake. Either way its not optimal (you either get a slower CPU or you get a yet another delay).

 

[Poki]

Seems like managing the outside temps is a little more challenging when you're not able to position and cool the CPU and GPU at two different places. And this XPS 15 2 in 1 is still thicker and heaver than the MacBook Pro, with almost no advantages. No thank you Dell, that's not a thing I want.

 

[The Mercurian]

It seems that Dell also wants to release "proper" XPS 15" with hex-core Coffee Lake (https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-Dell-XPS-15-2-in-1-is-real-and-it-sure-runs-hot.269900.0.html) once those are available, I gather from this that these CPUs are not coming too soon. Which puts Apple in an awkward position again. They can try to negotiate custom configs of the Kaby Lake G for the 15" MBP, or they can wait for Coffee Lake. Either way its not optimal (you either get a slower CPU or you get a yet another delay).

I guessing intel must have decided to fix the silicon before releasing these. What do you think ?

 

[leman]

I guessing intel must have decided to fix the silicon before releasing these. What do you think ?

I don't really think that there are anything they can fix in the chip itself save for redesigning the entire cache system and major parts of the execution engine...

 

[The Mercurian]

I don't really think that there are anything they can fix in the chip itself save for redesigning the entire cache system and major parts of the execution engine...

...which sounds like it would take a while.....hence delays.... no ?

 

[laz232]

...which sounds like it would take a while.....hence delays.... no ?

Making (and testing) such huge changes would be more than a few months push-back in the release though, especially if they don't want to loose performance. Perhaps they can reduce the worst of the potential dangers by adding some randomness to the predictive logic (I've not looked into the two design weaknesses at all, so no idea of effective mitigation strategies.

 

[Poki]

I doubt Intel will care about fixing these issues with the current architectures, that would just push release dates back too much. With the software fixes already in place and a small performance hit in benchmarks, it probably won't hurt their sales either.

 

[The Mercurian]

Making (and testing) such huge changes would be more than a few months push-back in the release though, especially if they don't want to loose performance. Perhaps they can reduce the worst of the potential dangers by adding some randomness to the predictive logic (I've not looked into the two design weaknesses at all, so no idea of effective mitigation strategies.

I doubt Intel will care about fixing these issues with the current architectures, that would just push release dates back too much. With the software fixes already in place and a small performance hit in benchmarks, it probably won't hurt their sales either.

Bear in mind they have already known about these flaws for months. Perhaps the more recent 10nm process issues, were in fact a cover to buy time to fix this? I just can't see them releasing their new "once in a generation" improved chips with this flaw, when the competing Rhyzen chips are less susceptible to these issues. And also now that the news is out, wouldn't they be open to lawsuits bringing a new chip design to market with a known issue? (as opposed to continuing to sell chips that were already released)

 

[sputnikBA]

Nothing from Intel shipping in maybe the next 12–24 months will be completely immune to Meltdown / Spectre.

They are affected at such a fundamental philosophical level of how a chip functions, that it will take a huge rethink and major reworking of the architecture — and that takes time.

It’s exactly because page tables, data sharing between rings, branch prediction and several other facets of the exploits are so essential to how modern processors work, that the vulnerabilities are so widespread.

To change that will take time, and CPUs coming out anytime soon can’t possibly have a true fix — only the same “mitigations” that are currently being implemented by OS vendors and Intel’s microcode updates.

It’s better for people to not get their hopes up for new hardware to be completely free of Meltdown / Spectre style issues. If you genuinely need to buy, then buy anyway and practice responsible internet / anti-malware habits.

 

[Ries]

Nothing from Intel shipping in maybe the next 12–24 months will be completely immune to Meltdown / Spectre.

They are affected at such a fundamental philosophical level of how a chip functions that it will take a huge rethink and redesign that there needs to be a major reworking of the architecture and that takes time.

It’s exactly because page tables, the data sharing between rings, branch prediction and several other facets relating to the exploits are so fundamental to how processors work that the vulnerabilities are so widespread.

To change that will take time, and CPUs coming out anytime soon can’t possibly have a true fix — only the same “mitigations” that are currently being implemented by OS vendors and Intel’s microcode updates.

It’s better for people to not get their hopes up for new hardware to be completely free of Meltdown / Spectre style issues. If you genuinely need to buy, then buy anyway and practice responsible internet / anti-malware habits.

They only need to do as AMD for most of the exploits, check access permissions before exceuting speculative instructions, not after they completed. AMD is only affected by variant #1, thats the hard one to fix and it is currently mitigated by software for a negiblie performance impact.

 

[sputnikBA]

They only need to do as AMD for most of the exploits, check access permissions before exceuting speculative instructions, not after they completed. AMD is only affected by variant #1, thats the hard one to fix and it is currently mitigated by software for a negiblie performance impact.

It’s very, very easy for something you think you’ve added as a “fix” to cause problems in other places as an unforeseen issue. And with hardware you can’t really take chances like that.

This is a large part of why products are designed so far in advance of their actual manufacture and shipping dates. This is particularly true for core components like a CPU that other vendors you sell to will be relying upon.

It’s really not something Intel can afford to mess up given the scale of how this has turned out. While I dislike that it means no one is getting true immunity anytime soon, it absolutely makes sense for them not to rush out any significant architectural changes to their hardware without a lot of testing.

 

[Poki]

While I dislike that it means no one is getting true immunity anytime soon, it absolutely makes sense for them not to rush out any significant architectural changes to their hardware without a lot of testing.

Exactly. And Intel currently is in no position to postpone any CPU releases for multiple years - AMD already caught up. So I'd expect Intel to release all chips currently in the pipeline just as planned while relying on the software fixes for the vulnerabilities. From what I've seen, the performance hit won't be too bad for most consumers,however bad it might be for data centers and servers.

 

[adamjackson]

I'm ready to upgrade but I can be patient. What I want before I upgrade...possibly dreaming:

More keyboard improvements
Break-away USB-C charging (like MagSafe)
32GB of RAM
a GPU that is fully utilized by Lightroom and Final Cut Pro...like where I can play back proxy 4K 60FPS on the MacBook Pro w/o dropping frames (seems like a pretty normal task)

512GB SSD is fine, quad-core is fine, the form factor looks great and I accept the fact I'll have to buy a $200 TB3 Dock for my setup.

Current computer is in signature. It's treating me fine and the 5K iMac does most of the heavy lifting.

 

[boombox15]

Are there any indications that Apple will reduce the price of the MacBook Pro when it is updated?

 

[chleuasme]

So, more intel PR details on the Kaby Lake (non-R) + AMD Vega GPU solutions: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1222...-core-with-radeon-rx-vega-m-graphics-launched

More intel news potentially in the 24 hours, with the upcoming keynote.

 

[Poki]

So, more intel PR details on the Kaby Lake (non-R) + AMD Vega GPU solutions: https://www.anandtech.com/show/1222...-core-with-radeon-rx-vega-m-graphics-launched

More intel news potentially in the 24 hours, with the upcoming keynote.

Thanks for the link!

Which keynote? I seem to have missed the announcement.

 

[chleuasme]

Huh yeah, I messed up with dates , lol. Forget this part.

_____
Dunno if really meaningful, but in the article it says “Only the i7-8706G is vPro enabled”. We probably also can consider Apple wouldn’t use the 100W version in the rMBP15 if they even plan to use it.

I continue to think they will only use this solution (for now) in the $2K entry model, replacing the old Haswell model, and the high-end will get 8th gen 45W 14nm++ hexacore + whatever newer dGPU on the board.

 

[haydn!]

Are there any indications that Apple will reduce the price of the MacBook Pro when it is updated?

There’s been no rumours to suggest so, but then there hasn’t been anything to suggest otherwise either.

Apple has been known in the past to drop prices for MacBooks 2-3 revisions into a new design before so it’s not unlikely. I guess it comes down to how much they’re able to bump performance too. As small improvements may mean price cut to make more attractive and bigger improvements may mean no change.

This is of course, all just speculation.

 

[Mr. Dee]

Are there any indications that Apple will reduce the price of the MacBook Pro when it is updated?

Apple is more likely to keep prices the same while maybe bumping storage and RAM. Its how they are able to keep their profit margins so high. So, when Dell, HP, Acer all go 1 TB SSD and 32 GBs of DDR4 RAM, Apple will make 512 GB and 16 GBs standard while charging you the same price as the last generation. They can then charge you for upgrades like 1 TB and 32 GBs of RAM. This is probably because they are able to get those components cheaper.

Price cuts are likely to happen on the last generation while stocks last and the refurb store.

 

[groove-agent]

The way Apple has been going lately, I believe this will resemble the new 2018 MBP:

[doublepost=1515643140][/doublepost]I'm surprised also that the iMac Pro didn't have something like a TB3 keyboard with touch bar.

That is a really good point I had not considered. And yes I agree that is good news. I for one don't believe their marketing guff about selling loads of TB laptops.



There is talk of 30% on some benchmarks. Also more cores. CoffeeLake should deliver quad core 13" laptops and hex core 15" hopefully. So it should be a step-change.

 

[oldtime]

There’s been no rumours to suggest so, but then there hasn’t been anything to suggest otherwise either.

Apple has been known in the past to drop prices for MacBooks 2-3 revisions into a new design before so it’s not unlikely. I guess it comes down to how much they’re able to bump performance too. As small improvements may mean price cut to make more attractive and bigger improvements may mean no change.

This is of course, all just speculation.

The way Apple has been going lately, I believe this will resemble the new 2018 MBP:

[doublepost=1515643140][/doublepost]I'm surprised also that the iMac Pro didn't have something like a TB3 keyboard with touch bar.

Don't even joke about a touch keyboard on a MBP. I'd like to sleep without nightmares tonight, thank you.

 

[leman]

And then again, maybe we are getting a cannon lake in the new MBP. Rumors mill is running high

https://segmentnext.com/2018/01/10/10nm-intel-cannon-lake-cpus/

 

[mcpryon2]

The way Apple has been going lately, I believe this will resemble the new 2018 MBP:

Oh, jeez. I remember when this video came out. I was working at a university and one of the learning center people sent this link to our office (we trained and researched academic tech) saying how great it would be. That's a hard email to reply to. It is a pretty great video and The Onion is hilarious. Our response was something like that...

Such a great video.

 

[oldtime]

And then again, maybe we are getting a cannon lake in the new MBP. Rumors mill is running high

https://segmentnext.com/2018/01/10/10nm-intel-cannon-lake-cpus/

That would be huge, since it would mean 32GB in the 15" a year ahead of schedule.

Not holding my breath though.

 

[fokmik]

So we can assume that if apple will not update mb in march or at wwdc they go straight to cannon lake in fall 2018?!