Waiting for the 2019 MBP [Merged]

[turbineseaplane]

Whatever they do, they have to do something about the keyboard reliability.

They’ve tried three revisions on the butterflies and we are still having problems and I really hope that means they’ve got a different design to try or something more drastic than what they have done so far.

 

[afir93]

Whatever they do, they have to do something about the keyboard reliability.

They’ve tried three revisions on the butterflies and we are still having problems and I really hope that means they’ve got a different design to try or something more drastic than what they have done so far.

Agreed. iPhones have been getting (very slightly) thicker since the iPhone 6s, and nobody batted an eye (even though portability matters even more on iPhones than on laptops). I could easily see them go down the same road with MBPs on the upcoming redesign – adding 2-3mm of thickness would probably be enough for a new keyboard design that inherits the advantages of the butterfly mechanism but is designed from ground-up with reliability and longevity in mind, while still being such a small and subtle increase in thickness that you wouldn't be able to notice unless you're comparing them side-by-side.

 

[turbineseaplane]

adding 2-3mm of thickness would probably be enough for a new keyboard design that inherits the advantages of the butterfly mechanism but is designed from ground-up with reliability and longevity in mind

They can even tout the slight extra travel as "even more comfortable" with "better ergonomics", etc...

I always have to think about how Apple will insist on spinning something and make sure there is some daylight to work with there, since they refuse to act like adults and admit they made a mistake and something they came up with has flaws.

Remember - the membrane on gen 3 butterfly keyboards isn't there to deal with the dust/debris/reliability...

What did they claim it was for?
Noise I think?

Give. Me. A. Break guys..

I know some will say that was due to "legal" - I guess I don't get why since they already have a big replacement/warranty extension program underway for 2016-2017 anyhow (and will probably cover 2018's eventually also)

According to Apple, they always make the right decisions and everything is simply a continued evolution on their continued correct decision making, thus leading to always better and better products.

It is a little nauseating honestly

 

[Dave245]

They can even tout the slight extra travel as "even more comfortable" with "better ergonomics", etc...

I always have to think about how Apple will insist on spinning something and make sure there is some daylight to work with there, since they refuse to act like adults and admit they made a mistake and something they came up with has flaws.

Remember - the membrane on gen 3 butterfly keyboards isn't there to deal with the dust/debris/reliability...

What did they claim it was for?
Noise I think?

Give. Me. A. Break guys..

I know some will say that was due to "legal" - I guess I don't get why since they already have a big replacement/warranty extension program underway for 2016-2017 anyhow (and will probably cover 2018's eventually also)

According to Apple, they always make the right decisions and everything is simply a continued evolution on their continued correct decision making, thus leading to always better and better products.

It is a little nauseating honestly

They don’t always make the right decisions, no one does! Even when Steve Jobs was around they made mistakes.

It took them a while to admit the 2013 Mac Pro was a mistake. We will have to wait and see what happens, the third generation keyboard may be a little bettter, maybe they have a 4th gen which is why they have to redesign the MacBook Pro.

I thought the redesign would be next year as it’s the 4 year cycle.

 

[turbineseaplane]

They don’t always make the right decisions, no one does!

That's what I was saying - they don't - but they love to pretend they do and act like they do and bring bravado and BS to so many situations and stage shows to try to make people think they do..
[doublepost=1551548289][/doublepost]

It took them a while to admit the 2013 Mac Pro was a mistake.

And they did NOT do that of their own accord.

That was significant pressure across the board from Pro customers (some very very big ones) that made for that course correction and public acknowledgement.

That situation and their admitting to it being a mistake was an exceptional outlier.

 

[Dave245]

That's what I was saying - they don't - but they love to pretend they do and act like they do and bring bravado and BS to so many situations and stage shows to try to make people think they do..
[doublepost=1551548289][/doublepost]

And they did NOT do that of their own accord.

That was significant pressure across the board from Pro customers (some very very big ones) that made for that course correction and public acknowledgement.

That situation and their admitting to it being a mistake was an exceptional outlier.

It's not the first time either, remember Steve Jobs and the iPhone 4, "you're holding it wrong"

The interesting part of the Mac Pro admission was the sit down and this interview style https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/04/apple-pushes-the-reset-button-on-the-mac-pro/

i'm not in the market for a Mac Pro but lets hope Apple learned from that mistake. I also hope they are investing some time and effort into the iMac and Macbook Pro's. The iMac in particular as it hasn't seen an update in a while now.

 

[Queen6]

Whatever they do, they have to do something about the keyboard reliability.

They’ve tried three revisions on the butterflies and we are still having problems and I really hope that means they’ve got a different design to try or something more drastic than what they have done so far.

Apple needs to do lot more than that, it's already ridiculed in many sectors for being little more than an expensive toy. Bring it on, Pro my arse, I dare you, if not Apple fully deserves the ridicule...

I can deliver under W10, bigger question can Apple deliver under macOS? Fully expecting more garbage from Tim & Co Pipeline, as the have done literally nothing with the Mac...Wankers...

Q-6

 

[turbineseaplane]

@Queen6

I hear ya' - I'm just hoping for a starting point of "keyboard isn't s***" so I could maybe entertain the idea of buying one at some point..

The rest of the features don't matter a lick to me if the KB isn't dealt with.

 

[Queen6]

@Queen6

I hear ya' - I'm just hoping for a starting point of "keyboard isn't s***" so I could maybe entertain the idea of buying one at some point..

The rest of the features don't matter a lick to me if the KB isn't dealt with.[/QUOTE

Will be the same BS until Apple wakes up, equally they don't seem to give a ****. In my realm such piss poor performance costs multiple $100K, worst still lives. Respect is lost, boy's are all on W10 wonder why, easy **** hardware and **** software, rest is down to Apple...

Q-6

[doublepost=1551568004][/doublepost]

@Queen6

I hear ya' - I'm just hoping for a starting point of "keyboard isn't s***" so I could maybe entertain the idea of buying one at some point..

The rest of the features don't matter a lick to me if the KB isn't dealt with.

Fully expecting more garbage, with a higher margin as that all Apple's seemingly capable of in 2019. At this point I believe Apple is incapable of a professional grade computer that 's not neutered.

Tim & Co bring on the excuses why Apple cant, it's pathetic at very best. Dig in, dig deep or **** off, stop being wankers, step up as we are absolutely sick and tired of the BS.

Grow a pair, knock off the awesome unless it's warranted and that's been a very long time...

Q-6

 

[danwells]

I hope with all the rest of you for a keyboard that combines the advantages of the butterfly with those of the previous scissor switch design (or, even, in a world where Jony Ive woke up no longer remembering what "thin" means, for some form of mechanical keyboard).

I'd personally prefer a slimline mechanical keyboard (Razer has one on a machine thinner than the Unibody MBP, although thicker than any Retina model). Given Apple's size, engineering prowess and manufacturer relationships. they could probably get one into a thinner design than Razer did, by using a custom switch. if you're a keyswitch manufacturer and Razer calls you up and says "we want a few thousand keysets in a new super thin design", you're going to laugh. If Apple calls and says "how about a few million sets or so with a new design?", you're going to work very hard to satisfy them. Apple sells almost 20 million Macs annually.

It makes practical sense - a slimiine mechanical keyboard would be a big positive feature on the MBP (at least 15"+, and maybe 13"), and on the desktop keyboard. It wouldn't fit in the MBAir or the MacBook, at least not at first.

Unfortunately, it doesn't make Apple sense. Jony Ive Hath Decreed that all the laptops get the same keyboard, which means that the keyboard in the new 16.5" Pro has to fit in the very lightest MacBook as well. The big Pro could accommodate a number pad, or a number pad/Touch Bar hybrid, if it didn't have to share a keyboard with the MacBook. What if the Touch Bar was over to the side, squarish, and serving as a number pad when it didn't have another function? Put the function keys up top...

Even though a mechanical keyboard and/or a number pad touch bar is feasible, I think that we are far more likely to get another butterfly. I really hope they don't introduce a haptic keyboard with no physical travel on the Pro first. There's some possibility that all those haptic patents aren't for the Mac at all - they make all the sense in the world on the iPad. If we get a haptic keyboard on the Pro at any point, it will hopefully come after it has been perfected on iPads and ultraslim laptops. Especially on the MacBook Pro, an e-ink keyboard with little displays on the keys would be far more desirable than a haptic keyboard (e-ink keyboards already exist, although they aren't common, and Apple was thought to be buying a manufacturer of such things).

 

[turbineseaplane]

@danwells

It’s a really great point about “same keyboard in every model”.

That’s really frustrating and makes no sense at all, as you were saying.

 

[ascender]

What’s even more baffling about the keyboard design they went with is that they had the Magic Keyboard design there already - everybody I know who has used one loves it and we have 4 or 5 here which are years old and have been used in a load of different environments by all ages and we’ve not had a single problem with any of them. Surely the MBP wouldn’t have to be that much thicker than it is today to take a version of that keyboard in it?

I can’t ever remember Apple taking so much flak from the tech community, for such an extended amount of time as this keyboard thing has been going on for - there’s just no way they’d release a redesigned laptop without an entirely new keyboard mechanism in it would they?

 

[Wowereit]

The use of soldered IHS instead of TIM could result in better temps. Will have to wait and see I guess.

That doesn't affect MBPs at all, because there is no IHS.

Die, TIM, heatsink.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Surely the MBP wouldn’t have to be that much thicker than it is today to take a version of that keyboard in it?

It honestly might not even need to be thicker at all.

Apparently, Apple simply wanted to "innovate" a component that didn't need it.

It's ridiculous.
They created this problem for themselves out of thin air trying to solve --- no problem that actually existed.
[doublepost=1551634840][/doublepost]

there’s just no way they’d release a redesigned laptop without an entirely new keyboard mechanism in it would they?

Ego would tell us "sure they would!"..

But..I think there's now a financial reality, both now and moving forward, that kicked in and led to the 2016/2017 Butterfly KB repair programs.

I think a new design is coming that will be something more radical than just installing key switch condoms.

 

[danwells]

As I understand it, the Magic Keyboard has a scissor mechanism (both Apple themselves and Wikipedia call it a scissor-switch keyboard) with some additional stabilization that makes it less wobbly to type on than cheap scissor keyboards. Typing on one, you can feel that it isn't like other low-profile scissor keyboards that sell for 1/3 as much, but nobody mentions what that stabilization might be...

Unfortunately, the Magic Keyboard is probably a close relative of the keyboard in the pre Touch Bar MBP - if anything, the additional stabilization might make it a bit thicker (it definitely feels better than a 2015 MBP). The last 0.1" that Apple managed to shave off the Touch Bar generation (which is 0.61" thick, while the Retina was 0.71" thick) probably came largely from the butterfly keyboard.

I agree with all the other MBP aficionados on here that I'd gladly give the 0.1" back for a really great keyboard, but all of us disagree with Jony Ive, and he makes the decisions. The other problem is that, while the 15" MBP can easily take the 0.1", the MacBook, which is less than 0.5" thick where the keyboard is and (unlike the MBP) actually depends on its thinness, cannot.

Apple could very easily use two keyboards in the portable line - heck, they could use three with no problem at all. If they didn't have the obsession with one keyboard, the 15" (or larger), could use a larger keyboard with a number pad or Touch Bar beside the keys. The 13"MacBook Pro could use the same keyboard without the "sidecar", and the MacBook and Air could use a super-thin butterfly design.

Razer uses a unique mechanical keyboard in the 4K model of the Blade Pro, which sells fewer than 5,000 units per year - Apple sells far more 15" MBPs (alone) than that in a week. There was one year (2016) when Razer sold less 17" laptops (just under 1000) than Apple sells 15" MBPs in a day! Nearly trillion-dollar Apple can certainly afford to use a unique keyboard in their flagship portable if tiny Razer can use one in a slow-selling halo model.

The one keyboard thing is an obsession on Apple's part, but it unfortunately goes back a long way. The first time I noticed it was in PowerBook days, way back in 2003! The 12" and 17" PowerBooks had just come out, and the 12" was exactly wide enough to accommodate the full-size keyboard that would feature on all three models, which came within 1/4" of both sides of the case. On the 17", the keyboard floated in the middle of acres of space - a numeric pad would have fit without being cramped at all, and the half height function keys were just silly. Ever since, Apple's keyboard philosophy has been the same - the biggest keyboard we can fit in our smallest Mac carries throughout the line.

Are they aware enough of the reception of the butterfly keyboard that they'll finally give up their one keyboard obsession? I'm pessimistic... What we get in the MBP will most likely be dictated by the MacBook, which means either another butterfly or a haptic keyboard of some sort. I don't think the haptic will be ready in time for this year's release, and they probably want to put it in the MacBook first, so my best guess is another generation of butterfly keyboards for the MBP.

 

[kis]

Whatever they do, they have to do something about the keyboard reliability.

yup, make the whole laptop 3 mm thicker and go back to a normal effin keyboard that doesn't suck.

 

[semihat]

Hopefully they will go for a thinner design.

 

[cool11]

Hopefully they will go for a thinner design.

Hopefully? Unfortunately!

 

[Basic75]

Hopefully they will go for a thinner design.

Are you trolling? Why do all Apple laptops need to be as thin as possible, or even thinner? The Pro should be powerful.

 

[Ma2k5]

Are you trolling? Why do all Apple laptops need to be as thin as possible, or even thinner? The Pro should be powerful.

We need thinness. I won't be happy until I can use it to cut a pineapple in half.

 

[Dave245]

Are you trolling? Why do all Apple laptops need to be as thin as possible, or even thinner? The Pro should be powerful.

Lighter I can understand since they are portable machines, people carry them around all day, every day.
[doublepost=1551711518][/doublepost]

We need thinness. I won't be happy until I can use it to cut a pineapple in half.

About the size of piano wire then

 

[Falhófnir]

We need thinness. I won't be happy until I can use it to cut a pineapple in half.

It will certainly be interesting to see what possibilities ARM and <5nm opens up on this front, if/ when it comes to pass... a proper keyboard and just as thin as now (even thinner?) much lighter from dramatically reduced battery draw? (The battery is the single heaviest component) - all of this without thermal throttling? lots of very interesting possibilities.

 

[afir93]

Hopefully they will go for a thinner design.

I mean, if you like an even thinner Mac laptop than the current MBPs, there is kind of the MacBook aswell as the MacBook Air (thicker at its thickest point, but much thinner on average) for that? I don't think we need to go even thinner than we currently are on the MacBook Pro line, at least not until there's some significant progress in chip design and how much heat and power chips with current performance require (which may or may not happen with the heavily-rumored switch to ARM...).

 

[danwells]

I'm not sure how many more steps we can go on processor feature size. Moore's Law (that you get twice as many transistors on the same size chip every two years) is breaking down - Intel is already close to the limits, which is why we're seeing Yet Another Skylake Derivative so many times. Switching to ARM might buy a generation or two, or it might not - present ARM (especially Apple A-series) chips are advancing faster than Intel, but they're also simpler. If someone tried to build a hugely complex ARM chip, it might run right into the same walls as Intel. Not everybody means the same thing when they discuss feature size (not being a chip designer, I don't understand the technicalities). Intel's 10nm is somewhere around other manufacturers' 7 nm...

Even with the differences in nomenclature, there are increasing real technical difficulties as the die shrinks. The first barrier is how much smaller a feature we can create with conventional Deep UV lithography. Many think that Intel's 7nm process and other companies' 5nm processes will not be possible without Extreme UV, which has never yet been used on a production scale. If Extreme UV works, it probably buys us one or two more die shrinks - with three being optimistic.

The second barrier is that we are manipulating smaller and smaller numbers of atoms, which means that quantum effects become more and more problematical. We aren't that far from having to worry about things like Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle making the outcomes of our calculations uncertain.

Eventually (and not so eventually - it's somewhere around 1 nm, with the actual size uncertain due to quantum uncertainties) , we'll hit an absolute barrier, because you can't build a feature less than an atom wide.

We need to think of the day when we can no longer get faster computers for less money simply by waiting for next year's chip. Moore's Law is breaking down...

 

[jsnuff1]

We need thinness. I won't be happy until I can use it to cut a pineapple in half.

Why a pineapple and not an apple? An Apple cutting an apple would be epic.