Well... I screwed up my PBG4 DLSD

[alex_free]

Well Apple did have X86 versions of OSX from the start...so you can see where his thinking came from but would they be keeping under wraps now, ARM, Power8, Power9 or 10 😉

IMO, they won’t be able to gracefully change architectures like in the past. The QA is gone already for their only main architecture, I can’t expect arm to have something equivalent to Rosetta for x86_64 with modern Apple.

I truly believe the 68k emu and Rosetta are some of the best programs ever written by Apple. Everyone says it is damn near impossible to achieve decent performance on emulation of such a different cpu architecture even today.

 

[B S Magnet]

I'm surprised you haven't had comments - there's usually a violent reaction to alternative plans Apple may have had for the last Powerbooks...

Please don’t utter the incantations will which resurrect rabidz7 from the 7448 catacombs.
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Everybody braging about wheter PPC is alive in Apple intern devs center or not and not even reading thru my ideas 😀 As I said, I think there are some version of PPC but not all of them, maybe like 3 or 4 and then nothing more. So nobody any thought on my RAM idea?

The RAM idea is interesting, but it’s well beyond my wheelhouse of technical knowledge to engage much with its implications.
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This is entirely possible, just that it would be hard to get it to work. Maybe for DosDude he can get the G4 to recognize 4GB of memory. That would be nice though. I would like to upgrade my PB G4 DLSD to 4GB of memory, who wouldn’t ?

As for Snow Leopard ? If it’s written in assembly then you would need a disassembler to add the PPC instructions for it to work. You would also need to do it for 10.6.8 as the final version for PPC. Lion has no PPC code. Really, I wouldn’t mind 4GB in the 7447a of 7448.

I suppose we ought to page @dosdude1 into this thread and listen to what he thinks about this technical challenge.

 

[JoyBed]

Tonight I will test out if the OpenFirmware alone can see the full 4gigs. I need to get authentication to browse thru Apple related files on Foxconn servers. I have only clearance to access Sony Bravia related stuff.

 

[andloph]

@JoyBed
interesting topic !
I always thought that a 32bit OS will give you access already to 4 Gb of physical ram, 36 bit is just to get beyond that limit IIRC. So in theory 36 extended mapping should not be necessary to get access to more ram.
In both cases the hardware and software have to obviously support it and for the second that would probably mean rebuilding at least the kernel ( in case it isn´t available already i mean).

When you say that you enabled it in macos, is there already an interface to enable it or how did you do it ?
To me this just looks like Apple has imposed a limit to the available ram in userspace, yet another example of Apple imposing stupid limits.

About the SL PPC OS debate : to me it looks obvious that Apple had a ppc os until at least SL. Beyond that im also sure they realized that powerpc was a dead end and killed the hole thing a long time ago.
i´m also very sure that apple has been buidling macos for arm for at least a couple of years now in order to see what the strategy would be in the near future.
I wouldn´t be suprised if we have an arm based lowend macbook in the short term, the only thing holding them back in my opinion is software (and that´s why the catalyst thingy has been pushed).
Just my 2 cents.

thanks !

 

[JoyBed]

@JoyBed
interesting topic !
I always thought that a 32bit OS will give you access already to 4 Gb of physical ram, 36 bit is just to get beyond that limit IIRC. So in theory 36 extended mapping should not be necessary to get access to more ram.
In both cases the hardware and software have to obviously support it and for the second that would probably mean rebuilding at least the kernel ( in case it isn´t available already i mean).

When you say that you enabled it in macos, is there already an interface to enable it or how did you do it ?
To me this just looks like Apple has imposed a limit to the available ram in userspace, yet another example of Apple imposing stupid limits.

About the SL PPC OS debate : to me it looks obvious that Apple had a ppc os until at least SL. Beyond that im also sure they realized that powerpc was a dead end and killed the hole thing a long time ago.
i´m also very sure that apple has been buidling macos for arm for at least a couple of years now in order to see what the strategy would be in the near future.
I wouldn´t be suprised if we have an arm based lowend macbook in the short term, the only thing holding them back in my opinion is software (and that´s why the catalyst thingy has been pushed).
Just my 2 cents.

thanks !

Yes, 32-bit OS should give you 4gigs of ram but I think the firmware is limiting the ram not just the OS.

 

[weckart]

What about the RAM controller? Even if you could install larger RAM modules would the controller be able to handle more? My understanding with the Mac Mini G4 is that 1GB is your lot and the bottleneck is neither the availability of 2GB RAM DIMMs nor OF.

Also, I might be underthinking this but after booting doesn't control of hardware pass to the OS? Even if OF doesn't know how to deal with newer hardware not provided for in its Forth coding, a kext or extension here or there initialises and preps all manner of hardware additions. Would that not also be possible for additional RAM and if so, why has no one cottoned onto that before?

 

[andloph]

i am not an expert in this kind of stuff but telling OF that more ram is available is apparently quite easy, the main problem i see is that the OS will have to be informed too. And here is where Apple probably has set the barrier, don´t know if in the kernel or somewhere else.

IF the MMU has been instructed to see 32 or even 36 bit ext. mappings then -in theory- the hardware side is covered and it is the kernel that should take care of this.

@JoyBed : what happens if you trick OF, plug in more ram and then boot up the system ? Maybe it "sees" the ram but the question actually is what happens when you use it ? My guess is that the system will just hang ( if it boots that is ).

thanks !

 

[vddrnnr]

Hi all,

Regarding what andloph said it has already been done before.
Many powerbooks have failing ram slots and I already saw some threads/posts
where through openfirmware the RAM size has been specified manually
and the OS recognized the value specified.
The problem was that because the ram slot was deffective the OS is unable
to access it.
In this case it's not deffectve and in the DLSD it supports DDR2 2GB DIMMs
so maybe in this case it works if the controller really supports it.
And by the way the OS supports it if not how could we have PMG5's with 16GB of RAM as
the OS is still 23bit.

@JoyBed I can try to find the links where I read about changing OF RAM size if you need.

Best regards,
voidRunner

 

[JoyBed]

Hi all,

Regarding what andloph said it has already been done before.
Many powerbooks have failing ram slots and I already saw some threads/posts
where through openfirmware the RAM size has been specified manually
and the OS recognized the value specified.
The problem was that because the ram slot was deffective the OS is unable
to access it.
In this case it's not deffectve and in the DLSD it supports DDR2 2GB DIMMs
so maybe in this case it works if the controller really supports it.
And by the way the OS supports it if not how could we have PMG5's with 16GB of RAM as
the OS is still 23bit.

@JoyBed I can try to find the links where I read about changing OF RAM size if you need.

Best regards,
voidRunner

Find the links please, I am currently checking the schematics of PBG4 DLSD, but from what I can see the controller has address paths for at least 4 gigs of ram physically attached to the ram slots. But I dont have any 2gig modules.

 

[vddrnnr]

Hi JoyBed,

See if this is what you need.

A fix of sorts for PowerBooks with lower RAM slot issues - Mac OS X Hints

Best regards,
voidRunner

 

[JoyBed]

Hi JoyBed,

See if this is what you need.

A fix of sorts for PowerBooks with lower RAM slot issues - Mac OS X Hints

Best regards,
voidRunner

Yes, this is exactly what I need, as I said, hardware is wired to handle al least 4gigs, I didnt bother to calculate exact maximum... But I dont have any 2gig modules to spare, maybe one 2gig module so I will try 3gigs. Will report as soon as I get home, I end at work in 15 minutes and a half an hour trip to my house. I will probably stop at a market to buy some building materials to fininsh some parts of my house.

 

[vddrnnr]

Hi JoyBed,

Force 4Gigs anyway and see what the OS says to test if Powerbook/Powermac model
has any influence on what the OS detects.

Accordding to the other threads I saw you can fake RAM amount with this.
Because thats exactly what happened when someone with a failing RAM slot tried to do it.

Best regards,
voidRunner

 

[JoyBed]

Hi JoyBed,

Force 4Gigs anyway and see what the OS says to test if Powerbook/Powermac model
has any influence on what the OS detects.

Accordding to the other threads I saw you can fake RAM amount with this.
Because thats exactly what happened when someone with a failing RAM slot tried to do it.

Best regards,
voidRunner

Okay, Im heading home.

 

[Amethyst1]

@JoyBed - What Mazda is that, just out of interest, seeing that the redline starts at 8k?

 

[andloph]

@JoyBed - What Mazda is that, just out of interest, seeing that the redline starts at 8k?

that looks like a rx8, excellent car !

@JoyBed : the link that @vddrnnr provided is basically what I was talking about.

thanks !

 

[Macbookprodude]

Adding to this, if you can get 4GB memory to run on the DLSD G4 let me know as I would like to try it myself. The G4 I believe has potential that Apple couldn’t dream of. Meanwhile, over at OS9lives there is talk about making 9.3

 

[JoyBed]

@JoyBed - What Mazda is that, just out of interest, seeing that the redline starts at 8k?

that looks like a rx8, excellent car !

@JoyBed : the link that @vddrnnr provided is basically what I was talking about.

thanks !

Yup. Its a Mazda RX8, I have it for 4 years. ECU is reprogrammed so it doesnt stop me at 9500rpm but at 10000rpm. But back at the topic. OpenFirmware seems to be fine with the 3gigs of ram. With the link provided I edited it to have mappings like 3gigs of ram. The only thing that doesnt like more than 2gigs is OS X. It hangs on this screen.

 

[weckart]

Dunno if this will work or tell you anything but maybe trying to boot Apple's System Diagnostic disc on this and running a mem test if it comes up. Some of those run at the OF level and others boot a minimal OSX first depending upon what hardware you have as one disc covers many models.

 

[B S Magnet]

Hi all,

Regarding what andloph said it has already been done before.
Many powerbooks have failing ram slots and I already saw some threads/posts
where through openfirmware the RAM size has been specified manually
and the OS recognized the value specified.
The problem was that because the ram slot was deffective the OS is unable
to access it.
In this case it's not deffectve and in the DLSD it supports DDR2 2GB DIMMs
so maybe in this case it works if the controller really supports it.
And by the way the OS supports it if not how could we have PMG5's with 16GB of RAM as
the OS is still 23bit.

@JoyBed I can try to find the links where I read about changing OF RAM size if you need.

Best regards,
voidRunner

My understanding (and someone please correct me if I’m wrong) is the 32-bit G5s (the 970s and 970fxs of 2003–05) are technically capable of up to 8GB, depending on hardware configuration (i.e., the low-end G5 towers being held to 4GB caps, while the higher-end at 8GB), while the 64-bit G5s (the multi-core 970mps of late 2005) are technically capable of 16GB.

As for testing above the 2GB ceiling of DLSD PowerBooks, would @JoyBed’s DLSD be a good test bed for trying to hit 4GB after OpenFirmware manual adjustments? Sorry, I hadn’t seen the later posts in this thread, my bad!

 

[JoyBed]

You know... Im starting to think that this computer is just making a clown from me. What the h*** is this? I finally managed to manually adjust the ram mapping to be more than 2gigs and to get the os x to boot and it displays me this? Im starting to wonder why im still not throwing it out of the window(cuz the window is 4times more expensive than the dlsd in my country).

 

[vddrnnr]

Hi B S Magnet,

I was referiing to OS limitations because of OSX being 32bit.
Regarding the test @JoyBed did changing OF RAM size i think we need to let him
test with a second DIMM on the second slot to "close" this matter.
If booting with 3Gb/4Gb worth of DIMMs still fails then I think the OF option
can be ruled out as a single solution to this situation.
Unofortunatelly for the non-DLSD models this test is not possible because
as far as my knowledge goes 2 GB DDR DIMMs were never available/not possible so we cannot test
this to see if previous models could not go above the specced RAM.
From real tests with Intel Macs it has been found that Apple's specs were not accurate in reality
they were just what was avaliable at the time those models came out so in many cases
more RAM than spec could be used as long as the chipset supported it and Apple
hadn't crippled it with some internal EFI mambo jumbo which made total phisical RAM
supported by Intel chipset to not be possible in a Macbook PRO.

If JoyBed it up for it let's do this last test ( with real RAM ) and keep our fingers crossed ;-)

Best regards,
voidRunner

 

[B S Magnet]

Dunno if this will work or tell you anything but maybe trying to boot Apple's System Diagnostic disc on this and running a mem test if it comes up. Some of those run at the OF level and others boot a minimal OSX first depending upon what hardware you have as one disc covers many models.

I’m curious to learn how ASD will handle this. I’ve run ASD 2.6.3 for the DLSDs (both the 17 and 15), which I think runs some kind of minimal UI based on OS9, but it’s less clear whether OS9 or OS X are the bones underneath.

Separately, with the 2GB module you tried above, @JoyBed, did you also memory run a test on it without anything in the second RAM slot to verify its integrity?

 

[vddrnnr]

Hi B S Magnet,

I was referiing to OS limitations because of OSX being 32bit.
Regarding the test @JoyBed did changing OF RAM size i think we need to let him
test with a second DIMM on the second slot to "close" this matter.
If booting with 3Gb/4Gb worth of DIMMs still fails then I think the OF option
can be ruled out as a single solution to this situation.
Unofortunatelly for the non-DLSD models this test is not possible because
as far as my knowledge goes 2 GB DDR DIMMs were never available/not possible so we cannot test
this to see if previous models could not go above the specced RAM.
From real tests with Intel Macs it has been found that Apple's specs were not accurate in reality
they were just what was avaliable at the time those models came out so in many cases
more RAM than spec could be used as long as the chipset supported it and Apple
hadn't crippled it with some internal EFI mambo jumbo which made total phisical RAM
supported by Intel chipset to not be possible in a Macbook PRO.

If JoyBed it up for it let's do this last test ( with real RAM ) and keep our fingers crossed ;-)

Edit: Hi JoyBed didn't see you post ;-) OSX is reallya weird beast. Do you think you can find some more
RAM to test?

Best regards,
voidRunner

 

[B S Magnet]

Hi B S Magnet,

I was referiing to OS limitations because of OSX being 32bit.
Regarding the test @JoyBed did changing OF RAM size i think we need to let him
test with a second DIMM on the second slot to "close" this matter.

Yeah, I just saw @JoyBed’s System Profiler screencaps showing 16 XB (exabytes?! 😀DD) and 8 bytes (hahaha).

 

[JoyBed]

For the last test I posted I set the OF to map 2gigs for standard ram slot and 8bytes for reverse ram slot. And physically there is a 2gig stick in the standard slot and a 1gig in reverse slot. BUT! I did manage to figure out that the DLSD powerbook can take the 2gig stick in just the standard slot and not in the reverse. If you put it there it dont even turn on.