That's my point. There are a lot of things at play. But people just love to blame Thinness as the biggest evil Apple have ever done.
QC is more like the evil. not Thinness...
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What are they doing about MBP Keyboard?? I’m 1 month out of warranty
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That's my point. There are a lot of things at play. But people just love to blame Thinness as the biggest evil Apple have ever done.
QC is more like the evil. not Thinness...
I am with you partially.
When concerned about over prioritization of thinness and aesthetics, I'm talking more than just the keyboard as I know others here are also.
Thinness as a priority leads to all sorts of design compromises, restrictions and choices - ports come to mind.
And I have to say that reliability aside I do find the current Keyboards to have too low travel to be enjoyable for long periods of typing, which I do a lot of.
My current problem is that I’m using a keyboard cover to do two things 1) prevent shiny keys, and 2) prevent anything from getting in there.
Typing with that thing on is horrendous.
Is there any evidense or proof that a cover will prevent the keyboard from failing? Personally I hate the look and feel of a cover, and if after spending 2,000 to 3,000 for a laptop, I really have an issue having to cover up the cover to prevent it from failing.
It does prevent dust and grime on the keyboards. Plus, no more shiny keys! The keycaps are not of great quality and they develop a shine after coming into repeated contact with the skin oils on the finger tips. This has been the case for quite some time...I have been using a keyboard cover for all my Retina Pros. I did got without a cover for some long periods and could see the space bar getting shiny on me.
The flip side to this is...it is a dog to type on the keyboard with the cover on (2015 model). Not sure how it feels to type on the flat-crap keyboards of the 2016-2017 models with the cover. Never had any of these models long enough to try them out with a cover
This is funny. You don't pay Apple to tell you which cable to buy. I think you know exactly what I mean but you choose to act like you don't, so you can try and build an argument around something that doesn't exist.
Well... Enjoy your helplessness. I'll keep my eye out for the whiney, complaining threads about how you don't know how to install Word, because Apple should had included it for free. Hahaha dang the level of...
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I have not crossed a third party cable or accessory that my 2017 tb Mac does not work with.
Agreed. They need to simplify their laptop line. Macbooks and Macbook pros - that's it.
The theory is that the thin design of the keyboard is not forgiving when dust or debris gets under the keys causing them to fail. Furthermore, the macbook pro design doesn't allow you to easily lift the keys to clean, or to even replace the keyboard economically due to the "everything soldered in" design (which is a result of the thinness).
From the evidence I've seen, keyboard failure seems to be a result of the dust and debris. Others have speculated it has to do with thermals, namely the keyboards heating up. Thermals are also affected by the spacing of the components etc and when you cram everything in a tight package, that's not going to help.
So these being said, I'd say the thinness is a big contributor if not *the* cause of failure of the keyboards.
[doublepost=1522289515][/doublepost]I would think QC is looking for flaws in individual units after they're produced while design flaws start before the production of the unit and are likely present in most if not all models.
The theory is that the thin design of the keyboard is not forgiving when dust or debris gets under the keys causing them to fail. Furthermore, the macbook pro design doesn't allow you to easily lift the keys to clean, or to even replace the keyboard economically due to the "everything soldered in" design (which is a result of the thinness).
From the evidence I've seen, keyboard failure seems to be a result of the dust and debris. Others have speculated it has to do with thermals, namely the keyboards heating up. Thermals are also affected by the spacing of the components etc and when you cram everything in a tight package, that's not going to help.
So these being said, I'd say the thinness is a big contributor if not *the* cause of failure of the keyboards.
[doublepost=1529934824][/doublepost]It’s my understanding that Apple has now offered to repair these keyboards without cost. Am I wrong about this?
Yes, you're right. It appeared I my mail just this morning, so I assumed it was recent.
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The further that hater is from this forum the better. Now he's ridiculing users too. Pretentious self righteous ass.
Please do not mistake this with defending Apple - he can criticize Apple all he likes - but taking jabs at users, that's just wrong. Same as some people here: criticize ideas and companies, not people.
Agreed, I can't stand him, He's the furthest thing from being an objective commentator.
Why does he need to be objective to advocate that Apple is more open about supplying information to allow third parties to allow them to repair devices?
Look at the state of the butterfly keyboards, it is a joke that Apple rivets the keyboard in such that it is a $700-1000 repair.
It is a shame as he clearly does understand hardware/electronics and can inform users of how to repair correctly and also inform us of some of the short cuts Apple have made and rightly criticise them - but his video's are almost cringe to watch due to how over the top, brasen, hostile and simply ridiculous they can become. But I guess, that is what gets views.... If he was a calm normal guy just talking through his repairs, he probably wouldn't have got as popular as he has (he would have got my view though!).
I find his arguments pretty reasonable. His delivery may be a little over the top but I think it is just an expression of the incredulousness in what Apple gets away with. Best of all, he is not saying something, he is actually showing it to you. An argument can be made that he is setting up the machines to look like that but I confirmed it by opening my MBPs sometime back to verify.
Ignoring Apple, there was a video where he was repairing a laptop which was previously repaired - albeit the previous person who repaired it did it wrong (I think they soldered something in the wrong place or something like that). The guy literally ranted and insulted the previous person who repaired it throughout the video, like we get it they screwed up, can you stop banging on about it throughout the whole repair? Absolutely mindnumbing, over the top is an understatement. How dare someone make a mistake! It was disgustingly obnoxious.
Companies create Field Repairable Units (FRUs) containing multiple piece riveted or glued together all the time. If the company feels that is the right way to go to make their product work that is their choice. They are optimizing the process to build the best product they can at a certain price target.
Open up any computer, car (welded, riveted, or glued together body parts; sealed electronics with inaccessible circuit boards), etc and you will see the same engineering. Building and repairing at the FRU level is relatively straightforward. Taking them apart and repairing at a lower levels requires additional work because they were never designed to be disassembled and replaced at this level.
I can see that. It is his personality trait which I tend to ignore. See plenty of different personalities in my office and I just ignore those and focus on the crux of the matter.
With Rossman, if you ignore his traits and try to focus on Apple's engineering, it will be a lot more enriching. Many a time, I am left wondering why Apple would engineer it that way after watching his videos. Do they really not want their laptops to last long? Why do the repair jobs only kick the can down the road? Why can't they do a proper fix? For e.g., the GPU repairs from Apple were just an example of that and Rossman showed this. The GPU fiasco has cost me more than 6000USD; so even I am infuriated that Apple treated the issue the way it did.
I don't think there is anyone else calling out Apple on their engineering like he does. While I and many other folks in this forum might qualify as trolls, he does not cause amidst all that "troll-like" behavior, he has some solid content.
Agree Louis's technical prowess is not in dispute more the delivery, equally in some parts of the world that's just how it is, brash and brazen. I will say that there's no need to call people out on the forum on another media, as their opinions are as valid as anybody's right or wrong and being opinion there is none...
Q-6
I agree with all of his points. The keyboards are a problem with these machines. The deniers are pathetic. Apple doesn’t release service campaigns to appease a “small sample base”. They know there is an inherent problem with the product and there’s more than a handful of owners involved.
I'd have to disagree, there is little reason for companies to create products that cannot be repaired and its just a matter of time before companies change tack to allow cheaper repairs.
Some may be happy paying $750 - $1500 for a range of repairs that should only cost $50-$250 and it sounds like you are one of those, but I am not.
Making them more repairable will add to the cost, which would be handed down to the consumer. Seeing as the only people desperately wanting user-repairability at all levels are the very same people throwing wild random repair cost numbers about, I don't think they'd be too happy to pay an extra few hundred dollars for the base unit.
Just different tactics, if they make it fully repairable, that's fine, you can't make it as efficient and it would cost more - but be repairable. If you make it entirely un-repairable (Which it is far from), then they can control the manufacturing and simplify the whole process - cheaper to produce.
That's not defending anything, but Apple aren't the only one's doing this sort of thing. The entire electronics industry has gradually shifted from solidly built to last products (70s) into mass produced and replaceable (today). That's to say at one point, everything you brought cost a fortune but lasted decades (Old TV's, white goods, even computers). However this all changed when consumers wanted more and more, and cheaper. So now we don't hold onto a computer for 10+ years, it's normally 4+ years, there's no need to build something that will last for 10+ years as it's just unnecessary cost.
Granted this does affect people, however consumerism will always go the way of the masses and the few either adapt or complain.
Making things more repairable doesn't have to add to the cost.
Take cars for instance, they are made to be repairable. Those that aren't get a bad name and mainstream people don't buy them. For instance, if you know a certain car needs a timing belt at X and that means a hefty repair bill, then that car doesn't sell well on the second hand market. Which in turn means people don't buy it when it is new.
For Apple, I have stopped buying products from them because they glue, solder and rivet their way to expensive replacements. Who wan't to buy a laptop today with only 16GB ram in it, only to upgrade a piece of software that renders your laptop obsolete?
Apple is the main player doing this kind of thing. My current Dell, which has its pro's and cons, still allows me to change the SSD to a larger one when I need it, add more ram when I need it and guess what, the guy who came to my house to replace the battery was out in 5 minutes. Not a chance of all that with Apple.
People never held on to computers for 10 years, its only in the last 3-5 years that I have started keeping computers longer. Why because the OS has reached a point where it is not progressing faster than the hardware.
Apple products are unrepairable. You want a keyboard replaced? $1000, you want usb socket replaced? $1000, you want the SSD replaced? $2000, start to see a pattern with Apple?
If Apple made TV's I wouldn't buy one because they would obsolete it in 5 years time.