What do you consider to be the next big breakthrough in RPGs?

[Huntn]

Many of us dive into Role Playing Games and ... role play, we pretend, we adopt roles, we can be good or bad, although on the topic of being bad, I don’t see the attraction of being bad, but I have some nephews who jump into a game like Red Dead Redemption and just rampage though town killing town folks, because they can. My point is we role play in these games. We very likely do not act how we would act in real life. But I digress.

What do you think is the next big breakthrough in RPGs? I think 2 things:

• Better AI and natural organic conversations, and Devs taking the time to produce something that resembles more natural communication with NPCs.
• Better VR integration.

However, in this post, I’m just going to talk about organic conversations.

Fallout 4​

Let’s start with an older game Fallout 4 (2015) a post apocalyptic game by Bethesda. In this game conversations are limited. A quest giver, vender, or companion candidates will talk to you but it is all right to the point. However many companions are romancible. That said, companion relationships are basically on auto-pilot, by virtue of spending time with you, the affection trend is up. In conversations with other NPCs, how you respond to them will effect your companion‘s feelings towards you, a blip plus or minus on the continuous up trend which is expressed as a number percentage.

Of interest, while spending time with a companion, eventually they will ask to talk you (shocker! ). Every companion in the game, has a personal issue they wish to convey to you and discuss. These are the most interesting times with your companions, when you can get something beyond a 1-2 sentence conversation out of them, although the developer made up your replies. Sometimes you give them advice, and moral support, all canned of course, but for others a quest will pop up to help your companion and they will be very appreciative if you support them. The most interesting companion in this regard is Cait, the pretty Irish lass and cage fighter when you first meet her.

Anyway there are no facial expression or body language that is conveyed to you, and eventually the game will tell you your companion has reached his/her highest attraction towards you (around 120%), which makes zero difference in your relationship, other than you get a buff, Lover’s Embrace when you sleep with your companion, just sleep, although Cait makes some suggestive comments from time to time.

These interactions are interesting, but other than that there is virtually no meaningful dialog between you and your companion. There are no casual conversations period. Your companions will make comments. If you ask them what’s on their mind, you’ll get a sentence out of them, where you usually have nothing important to say in response. If you ask about “our relationship” you’ll get a one sentence statement about their feelings towards you. And you end it by telling them “Nothing more”, end of discussion.

Cyberpunk 2077​

So that was 2015. Now let’s look at a 2020 role playing game, Cyberpunk 2077 which has gotten a lot of praise and criticism. It looks so amazing that you almost feel like you have stepped into a full blown city simulation, full of citizens all living their lives. But once you dive in, you quickly realize that there is a thin veneer to this presentation. Cyberpunk 2077’s brilliance also highlights it‘s shortcoming. Something like this looks so real, you naturally expect more, like the ability to approach a stranger, ask them a question, and get more than being brushed off.

There are no dedicated companions in this CP2077, but there are romance candidates. Unfortunately these relationships are stilted, unrealistic, with very limited conversations if any and the next thing you know there is an opportunity to express affection. And with Fallout 4, there are actions as determined by devs where you can further your relationship or screw it up. But here again what you’ll see this as shallow, nothing even approaching the development of a relationship, and arguably, most players would not want to take the time, but I’d think some minimal semblance of a relationship would be better than the superficial checks in the boxes that the developer decides is what constitutes a romantic relationship. 🤔

Therefore, I have to believe that improvements in AI and the ability to have an organic conversation just about any topic, within reason, would go a long way towards making RPGs and NPCs feel more realistic. In 2021, it appears we are still very far from anything resembling minimally normal conversations and the lack of better verbal communications, rubs our nose in just how shallow an environment is, and really holds back such a slick presentation as Cyberpunk 2077.
So what if we end up with terabyte sized games?

Thoughts?

 

[casperes1996]

Real relationships are long and complex things. I don't really believe games that don't explicitly have this as a goal will ever really do very well in representing them. They often come off as way way too shallow in RPGs with romance options, where "romance" more often than not just means "pick one you want to try and sleep with". But I doubt it'll improve to the point of feeling natural.
As for general conversation games are generally not about everyday life. The focus will often be on the remarkable rather than the ordinary. I think it'll be incredibly hard to achieve naturally flowing conversations on any topic especially considering it would have to be non-scripted and you can't have voice actors record all that. Everyone could become a Siri voice but that's also not exactly great. And if we were to try and put something like GPT (the AI) on the case we'd need a lot of processing just dedicated to that.

But funny you should mention Fallout. Let's go back in time. The originals, Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 actually had free text chat boxes. Anyone you could talk to, you had your options of what to say, but you also could just write whatever you wanted to say. A lot of things weren't understood by the person, but sometimes you could write something they'd react to that wasn't on the list of predefined options. The real reason this was possible all the way back then and was more extensive than the communications options in newer Fallout games is that F1 and F2 weren't really voice-acted. It was just text.

But let's put all that aside for a moment, because in truth, there already exists an RPG that has everything you describe. Very very natural flowing conversations that can be about literally anything. It started all the way back in 1974, and even then it had visuals that in some ways outperform the best video games of today. It can look as good as you can think it.

The real next step for RPGs, is what has already inspired so many of the cRPGs out there, be it Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or Dungeon Siege
Dungeons and Dragon. (Seriously, 5E is really quite good!)
Or any other TTRPG for that matter! You mention Cyberpunk 2077; Well, open the game files - there's a copy of Cyberpunk 2020 in there! A fantastic RPG. Cyberpunk Red also came out around the same time as 2077, so if you enjoy 2020 it's worth looking at that too!

 

[Huntn]

Real relationships are long and complex things. I don't really believe games that don't explicitly have this as a goal will ever really do very well in representing them. They often come off as way way too shallow in RPGs with romance options, where "romance" more often than not just means "pick one you want to try and sleep with". But I doubt it'll improve to the point of feeling natural.
As for general conversation games are generally not about everyday life. The focus will often be on the remarkable rather than the ordinary. I think it'll be incredibly hard to achieve naturally flowing conversations on any topic especially considering it would have to be non-scripted and you can't have voice actors record all that. Everyone could become a Siri voice but that's also not exactly great. And if we were to try and put something like GPT (the AI) on the case we'd need a lot of processing just dedicated to that.

But funny you should mention Fallout. Let's go back in time. The originals, Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 actually had free text chat boxes. Anyone you could talk to, you had your options of what to say, but you also could just write whatever you wanted to say. A lot of things weren't understood by the person, but sometimes you could write something they'd react to that wasn't on the list of predefined options. The real reason this was possible all the way back then and was more extensive than the communications options in newer Fallout games is that F1 and F2 weren't really voice-acted. It was just text.

But let's put all that aside for a moment, because in truth, there already exists an RPG that has everything you describe. Very very natural flowing conversations that can be about literally anything. It started all the way back in 1974, and even then it had visuals that in some ways outperform the best video games of today. It can look as good as you can think it.

The real next step for RPGs, is what has already inspired so many of the cRPGs out there, be it Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or Dungeon Siege
Dungeons and Dragon. (Seriously, 5E is really quite good!)
Or any other TTRPG for that matter! You mention Cyberpunk 2077; Well, open the game files - there's a copy of Cyberpunk 2020 in there! A fantastic RPG. Cyberpunk Red also came out around the same time as 2077, so if you enjoy 2020 it's worth looking at that too!

I’m going to have to see if I have CP2020, and then see how good it is!

When I discuss organic conversations, and more realistic relationships, my real goal is to get something better than what we have today. The real trick will be to make conversations more natural, and relationships not seem so artificial.

Cyberpunk 2077 really pissed me off. You’ve had a shallow relationship, reach a milestone of affection resulting in a sexual encounter (although you really did nothing to earn it) and then good luck getting them to talk to you about anything other than business.

 

[casperes1996]

I’m going to have to see if I have CP2020, and then see how good it is!

I have the Steam version of 2077, and it at least had CP 2020 in its game files

When I discuss organic conversations, and more realistic relationships, my real goal is to get something better than what we have today. The real trick will be to make conversations more natural, and relationships not seem so artificial.

Cyberpunk 2077 really pissed me off. You’ve had a shallow relationship, reach a milestone of affection resulting in a sexual encounter (although you really did nothing to earn it) and then good luck getting them to talk to you about anything other than business.

Right. 2077 didn't seem all that bad to me honestly. Felt more natural than Bethesda games or Mass Effect.
Maybe it's because I've not played it to completion or any of the relations to full, maybe it's because I've been very quest oriented in it the bits I have played, but characters felt more real than most other games, though *ONLY* the characters that are part of the story. Everyone else in the world feel like walking robots with no soul or existence other than window-dressing

 

[Huntn]

I have the Steam version of 2077, and it at least had CP 2020 in its game files

Right. 2077 didn't seem all that bad to me honestly. Felt more natural than Bethesda games or Mass Effect.
Maybe it's because I've not played it to completion or any of the relations to full, maybe it's because I've been very quest oriented in it the bits I have played, but characters felt more real than most other games, though *ONLY* the characters that are part of the story. Everyone else in the world feel like walking robots with no soul or existence other than window-dressing

For myself F4 set a standard as meager as it might be. Naturally, I expected a leap forward, especially with knocking Night City visuals out of the park. It could be I made an assumption we’d see advancements in other areas as mentioned. To be clear, I don’t insist on or want “realistic” relationships, just something less artificial.

Organic conversations simply do not exist. It’s living in a conversation straight jacket.

 

[Queen6]

Cyberpunk 2077 is not an RPG IMHO it's just a shallow cash & grab looter/shooter, bolstered by CDPR & Youtubers deception in order to cash in or out as the case may be. Even Mad Max (2015) is a deeper RPG and that's saying something. Next up open world RPG for me will likely be Mafia 3, little controversial in the storyline, equally interests and by all amount's has a very strong narrative.

Last played RPG was STALKER Shadow of Pripyat which I genuinely enjoyed, little aged yet very solid gameplay and made Cyberpunk 2077 feel like a child's toy. As for the the question at hand VR, once we are free off bulky headsets being strapped to the head. The AI exists already if implemented well...

Q-6

 

[casperes1996]

Cyberpunk 2077 is not an RPG IMHO it's just a shallow cash & grab looter/shooter, bolstered by CDPR & Youtubers deception in order to cash in or out as the case may be. Even Mad Max (2015) is a deeper RPG and that's saying something. Next up open world RPG for me will likely be Mafia 3, little controversial in the storyline, equally interests and by all amount's has a very strong narrative.

You consider Mafia 3 an RPG but not Cyberpunk? I mean I know 2077 is not as deep as old school cRPGs or STALKER games, but Mafia 3 is just not at all an RPG.

 

[Queen6]

You consider Mafia 3 an RPG but not Cyberpunk? I mean I know 2077 is not as deep as old school cRPGs or STALKER games, but Mafia 3 is just not at all an RPG.

Thx, correct. My error Mafia 3 is open world, not RPG by any means. Still stand by my comments on CP77 as being mediocre at best. Been a good while since I booted up Mafia 3 and next on the list for open world play. Just feel compelled to revisit the Sevastopol on Hard difficulty and with mod'd xenomorph AI as that's some wild ride...

Q-6

 

[garnerx]

I have to believe that improvements in AI and the ability to have an organic conversation just about any topic, within reason, would go a long way towards making RPGs and NPCs feel more realistic.

I don't think I'd like a game where you can just babble away about any old subject with your AI companions. Even the most open-ended story-based games need a path to follow and guidance from an actual human writer. AI Dungeon shows how quickly it can go off the rails when you leave it up to the player.

You should try Disco Elysium. They recently updated it to have more voice acting, where before it was mostly text, so I think I'm going to play through it again from the start. It's much more of an RPG than things like Fallout or Cyberpunk, and there's an overwhelming amount of ways you can take your character. Over a million words, apparently, written by very good human writers.

 

[leman]

RPG development have been stuck in a limbo for a long while now. In my opinion, the pinnacle of RPG development was seen in games such as Fallout 2, Arcanum, Deus Ex and maybe Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines (although that game had its issues). For "authenticity" and believable worlds, even though not a real RPG, my favorite example is the GTA series. These were the games that opened new levels of interaction, immersion and character integration. They delivered authentic worlds that one wanted to explore and relive.

Since then, I don't think that anything new was done. There are a lot of RPGs that were popular or critically acclaimed, but failed to deliver anything really new or substantial. Larian does some mechanically interesting RPGs nowadays, but they are almost too complicated compared to the early brilliance of Fallout 2 and the like. Cyberpunk was a game with tremendous promise, which ultimately got bogged down by incompetent managers and investors who demanded "popular mechanics" to be included in the game. It would have been an amazing title if they just focused on delivering a good action game (as in Stalker or Deus Ex series, where customizability comes from equipment and item selection), without all the over-designed, pointless RPG elements, the atrocious weapon leveling system or the cheesy, nonsensical story that ended up nowhere.

I am actually looking forward to Baldur's Gates 3, simply because of all the interactivity that game brings to the table. Creative environment manipulation makes it very close to a real pen and paper and I am curious what these folks will come up with next.

 

[ian87w]

RPG development have been stuck in a limbo for a long while now. In my opinion, the pinnacle of RPG development was seen in games such as Fallout 2, Arcanum, Deus Ex and maybe Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines (although that game had its issues). For "authenticity" and believable worlds, even though not a real RPG, my favorite example is the GTA series. These were the games that opened new levels of interaction, immersion and character integration. They delivered authentic worlds that one wanted to explore and relive.

Since then, I don't think that anything new was done. There are a lot of RPGs that were popular or critically acclaimed, but failed to deliver anything really new or substantial. Larian does some mechanically interesting RPGs nowadays, but they are almost too complicated compared to the early brilliance of Fallout 2 and the like. Cyberpunk was a game with tremendous promise, which ultimately got bogged down by incompetent managers and investors who demanded "popular mechanics" to be included in the game. It would have been an amazing title if they just focused on delivering a good action game (as in Stalker or Deus Ex series, where customizability comes from equipment and item selection), without all the over-designed, pointless RPG elements, the atrocious weapon leveling system or the cheesy, nonsensical story that ended up nowhere.

I am actually looking forward to Baldur's Gates 3, simply because of all the interactivity that game brings to the table. Creative environment manipulation makes it very close to a real pen and paper and I am curious what these folks will come up with next.

Oh I love Deus Ex, especially the first one. It was a huge breath of fresh air amongst the typical FPS genre, where you can do things completely stealthily if you want to. Too bad the incarnations of it ending up being closer to an FPS than an RPG.

 

[leman]

You should try Disco Elysium. They recently updated it to have more voice acting, where before it was mostly text, so I think I'm going to play through it again from the start. It's much more of an RPG than things like Fallout or Cyberpunk, and there's an overwhelming amount of ways you can take your character. Over a million words, apparently, written by very good human writers.

Can't believe I forgot Disco Elysium, which is probably one of the most interesting RPGs of the last decade! That game is brilliant and a very well implementation of a pen and paper gameplay on a computer. It's not perfect, and ultimately, it's not an approach that scales (as everything has to be made by hand), but it' still very refreshing compared to the other stuff.

 

[leman]

Oh I love Deus Ex, especially the first one. It was a huge breath of fresh air amongst the typical FPS genre, where you can do things completely stealthily if you want to. Too bad the incarnations of it ending up being closer to an FPS than an RPG.

I agree, the original Deus Ex was brilliant. All the other games in the franchise not so much. The big question is of course "what is RPG?". For some people, it's all about numbers and levels, and I personally think that it's too limiting. For me, RPG is about immersion and experience. For example, I think that the Stalker series are quite good RPGs, even if they don't have the typical RPG mechanics — simply because of the relative freedom of action and gear selection. You can choose your playstyle and you can choose your path, and you can immerse into the world, and in the end, isn't that what RPGs are about?

 

[casperes1996]

RPG development have been stuck in a limbo for a long while now. In my opinion, the pinnacle of RPG development was seen in games such as Fallout 2, Arcanum, Deus Ex and maybe Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines (although that game had its issues). For "authenticity" and believable worlds, even though not a real RPG, my favorite example is the GTA series. These were the games that opened new levels of interaction, immersion and character integration. They delivered authentic worlds that one wanted to explore and relive.

I'd like to add Gothic and Gothic 2 as absolutely fantastic RPGs of their time to this

I am actually looking forward to Baldur's Gates 3, simply because of all the interactivity that game brings to the table. Creative environment manipulation makes it very close to a real pen and paper and I am curious what these folks will come up with next.

Baldur's Gate has always more or less been a direct translation of D&D to a cRPG format as well. If memory serves, the first just straight up used the mechanics of ADnD2 and the second used 3.5.

 

[Huntn]

I don't think I'd like a game where you can just babble away about any old subject with your AI companions. Even the most open-ended story-based games need a path to follow and guidance from an actual human writer. AI Dungeon shows how quickly it can go off the rails when you leave it up to the player.

You should try Disco Elysium. They recently updated it to have more voice acting, where before it was mostly text, so I think I'm going to play through it again from the start. It's much more of an RPG than things like Fallout or Cyberpunk, and there's an overwhelming amount of ways you can take your character. Over a million words, apparently, written by very good human writers.

What is the purpose of AI dungeon?

Over a million words, apparently, written by very good human writers.
Definitely a move in the right direction.

When I speak of organic conversations, I know at this point in any game, I really don’t expect to be able to strike up a conversation with anyone, about anything, but admit I was inspired by Cyberpunk’s Night City.

It looks real, the pedestrians are impressive even though the vehicles on the street don’t act quite right, I could almost think I stepped into a full blown city simulation, until of course I tried to interact with anyone. At this point you are jolted out of any illusion. It feels so close, I asked myself why not go the extra mile, but in reality the answer is it would have to be go the next 1,000,000 miles.

And I’ll acknowledge many players will not want the distraction as it will be deemed as getting in the way of progressing with the story. But this is the feeling I got when I saw a night City, it’s so good, that I momentarily felt I could approach anyone and have a conversation with them.

And yes it’s a long standing convention based on practicality, that you can only talk to people who have a purpose in the story, and everything is right to the point, with nothing to spare. Night City is a leap ahead, and I was just speculating, what the next leap will be to make such a simulation more realistic, and it would have to be organic conversations which are technically possible if the effort is deemed worthwhile...which maybe it’s not.

This topic has got me thinking of a place like West World, a simulation where you could walk up to an AI stranger and discuss the weather or how pretty the flowers are, but it would need something at a minimum like VR, a level of immersion to make you want to take the time.

 

[garnerx]

What is the purpose of AI dungeon?

Try it and see! It's an AI-generated text adventure. If you turn off safe mode it can get pretty dark...

It looks real, the pedestrians are impressive even though the vehicles on the street don’t act quite right, I could almost think I stepped into a full blown city simulation, until of course I tried to interact with anyone.

I think what you're looking for is the Matrix. Some say we're already living in it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis

 

[Huntn]

Cyberpunk 2077 is not an RPG IMHO it's just a shallow cash & grab looter/shooter, bolstered by CDPR & Youtubers deception in order to cash in or out as the case may be. Even Mad Max (2015) is a deeper RPG and that's saying something. Next up open world RPG for me will likely be Mafia 3, little controversial in the storyline, equally interests and by all amount's has a very strong narrative.

Last played RPG was STALKER Shadow of Pripyat which I genuinely enjoyed, little aged yet very solid gameplay and made Cyberpunk 2077 feel like a child's toy. As for the the question at hand VR, once we are free off bulky headsets being strapped to the head. The AI exists already if implemented well...

Q-6

Cyberpunk 2077 Spoilers in this post
Man you are harsh. ...however I kind of agree with you, while acknowledging that Red Projekt moved the goal posts forward in what was presented, the creation of an impressive Night City and outstanding main and side quests. At least I felt they were stellar.

However the problem regarding Cyberpunk as an RPG is the almost complete lack of choice besides choosing which quests you might not want to do, pursuing a romance, and the flavor of the ending which are not all that different, other than who you end up hanging out with. This is a major fail in the RPG department.

I was wowed by the voice acting, motion capture, the environments, and the plot, but here is the thing, RPGs allow for character development as far as skills which Cyberpunk has in abundance. The tech/skill tree is impressive, but where it falls completely short is that besides picking an ending for you character there is basically no real choice about anything substantial story wise, not really. You are basically on rails as far as the big picture story. Yes, there is a difference at end , who you side with, if you end up fighting or not, but the disposition of your character as I said is just different flavors ot the same ending. Look at it this way the story is 95% rails, and 5% at the end, some choice Is offered.

In comparison, Fallout 4 offered substantial choices, which have a huge impact on the ending, who lives and who dies, who you are allied with, and how the Commonwealth is transformed by your actions. In CP2077, the only thing that really changes in Night City is the ending you choose for your character and where you will flee to, if you choose other than offing yourself. 🤔

One caveat, I have played through CP2077 two times, but have not chosen siding with Arasaka. I have read about that so don’t know for sure if you go that route is there is any opportunity to meet Alt Cunningham, to do anything with Mikoshi, I presume not.

 

[casperes1996]

Cyberpunk 2077 Spoilers in this post
Man you are harsh. ...however I kind of agree with you, while acknowledging that Red Projekt moved the goal posts forward in what was presented, the creation of an impressive Night City and outstanding main and side quests. At least I felt they were stellar.

However the problem regarding Cyberpunk as an RPG is the almost complete lack of choice besides choosing which quests you might not want to do, pursuing a romance, and the flavor of the ending which are not all that different, other than who you end up hanging out with. This is a major fail in the RPG department.

I was wowed by the voice acting, motion capture, the environments, and the plot, but here is the thing, RPGs allow for character development as far as skills which Cyberpunk has in abundance. The tech/skill tree is impressive, but where it falls completely short is that besides picking an ending for you character there is basically no real choice about anything substantial story wise, not really. You are basically on rails as far as the big picture story. Yes, there is a difference at end , who you side with, if you end up fighting or not, but the disposition of your character as I said is just different flavors ot the same ending. Look at it this way the story is 95% rails, and 5% at the end, some choice Is offered.

In comparison, Fallout 4 offered substantial choices, which have a huge impact on the ending, who lives and who dies, who you are allied with, and how the Commonwealth is transformed by your actions. In CP2077, the only thing that really changes in Night City is the ending you choose for your character and where you will flee to, if you choose other than offing yourself. 🤔

One caveat, I have played through CP2077 two times, but have not chosen siding with Arasaka. I have read about that so don’t know for sure if you go that route is there is any opportunity to meet Alt Cunningham, to do anything with Mikoshi, I presume not.

I sort of semi disagree.
On the basis that an RPG does not need to present actual choice. All choices are allowed to lead down the same path IMO; As long as it **FEELS** like you made that choice. And ironically Fallout 4 may give more actual choice, but I never felt I made those choices as choices when I played ther game. I felt like everything I did was just in pursuit of levels, loot and whatnot, not making choices because I wanted to make said choices.
What I’ve played of CP77 I felt more engaged with my V and while a lot of V’s behaviour was not mine, I could “role play” the character and get into her mind space. Unlike my Fallout character which was a blank slate. I get the intention was that I could turn that blank slate into whatever character I wanted, but no matter what it felt more like just an anonymous shell than a character of significance.

I’d also argue games like the Souls series are fantastic RPGs though they in a sense come with no choice at all. I mean a little here and there but not much. - Like the pen and paper roots of the genre it depends a bit on what DM you have, and a very on-rails story can be an excellent RPG experience as well, where the RPG nature of the campaign is less to do with which path you take as it is how you choose to walk that path

 

[Huntn]

I sort of semi disagree.
On the basis that an RPG does not need to present actual choice. All choices are allowed to lead down the same path IMO; As long as it **FEELS** like you made that choice. And ironically Fallout 4 may give more actual choice, but I never felt I made those choices as choices when I played ther game. I felt like everything I did was just in pursuit of levels, loot and whatnot, not making choices because I wanted to make said choices.
What I’ve played of CP77 I felt more engaged with my V and while a lot of V’s behaviour was not mine, I could “role play” the character and get into her mind space. Unlike my Fallout character which was a blank slate. I get the intention was that I could turn that blank slate into whatever character I wanted, but no matter what it felt more like just an anonymous shell than a character of significance.

I’d also argue games like the Souls series are fantastic RPGs though they in a sense come with no choice at all. I mean a little here and there but not much. - Like the pen and paper roots of the genre it depends a bit on what DM you have, and a very on-rails story can be an excellent RPG experience as well, where the RPG nature of the campaign is less to do with which path you take as it is how you choose to walk that path

I welcome all perspectives. I’ll agree that while an RPG does not need choice per say, that it makes for a more personal and enjoyable experience if there are significant choices and consequences as a result of those choices.

In Fallout 4, I made distinct choices based on my like or dislike of factions, and in fact I rebelled against the choices Bethesda presented to the player, the most significant was side with the Institute or side with anyone else and destroy the Institute. There was no way in hell I would side with the Institute and no way I would willfully destroy the greatest treasure trove of technological knowledge that existed in the Commonweath, if I could avoid it. Sure it was their choice, but I exerted my willpower and followed a third path by not completing specific quests. Unfortunaely in the vanilla game, I had to reduce the Institute to rubble, but I achieved what is described as the best vanilla ending, preserving 3 factions in the process. Then even better some creative modders came along who recognized the quandary and created content mods allowing you to capture the Institute and also install new leadership in the Brotherhood of Steel if you so desired. I’m in my casual third play though of F4. I just can’t seem to let it go.

 

[maflynn]

Let’s start with an older game Fallout 4

while I love Fallout 4, as an RPG game it’s rather weak. Decisions largely don‘t matter, there’s no real karma system

I’d rather have a smaller but fuller world. I think the push to have large open words can leave the player feeling like it’s rather empty. Cyberpunk is guilty of this

Im not really caring about romancing options but it does seem popular

 

[casperes1996]

while I love Fallout 4, as an RPG game it’s rather weak. Decisions largely don‘t matter, there’s no real karma system

I’d rather have a smaller but fuller world. I think the push to have large open words can leave the player feeling like it’s rather empty. Cyberpunk is guilty of this

Im not really caring about romancing options but it does seem popular

Agreed; This is generally my experience with all Bethesda games especially.

 

[Huntn]

while I love Fallout 4, as an RPG game it’s rather weak. Decisions largely don‘t matter, there’s no real karma system

I’d rather have a smaller but fuller world. I think the push to have large open words can leave the player feeling like it’s rather empty. Cyberpunk is guilty of this

Im not really caring about romancing options but it does seem popular

I would disagree in a friendly way , decisions in F4, about who you align with make a huge difference regarding who your friends/enemies are and who is left alive when the dust settles. I guess there are other types of decisions that could be presented by an RPG but I’m hard pressed to think of any that would have more significance. Maybe you're thinking of choices during a quest that would drastically change the outcome of the quest.

 

[casperes1996]

I would disagree in a friendly way , decisions in F4, about who you align with make a huge difference regarding who your friends/enemies are and who is left alive when the dust settles. I guess there are other types of decisions that could be presented by an RPG but I’m hard pressed to think of any that would have more significance. Maybe you're thinking of choices during a quest that would drastically change the outcome of the quest.

Well I think of it more like this.... (weird analogy inbound)

Imagine you have a store full of 10 billion shoes... Now you get to make 250 choices of which shoes to burn, which shoes to throw in the bin, which shoes to promote on more visible shelves and such. You can play around in this massive shoe shop all you want and make all these decisions about which shoes get to live and which shoes get glory.

To a shoe all this stuff seems important. But they're shoes. They have no soul, they are empty husks. They feel like their only purpose is to be worn and protect your feet, perhaps look pretty, perhaps to give a sense of scale! Wow! 10 billion shoes!
But how much more valueable is time with just a single human being than a bucketload of shoes?

It's not an RPG, it's not choice drive, but I care about Ellie and Joel. I can't even remember a single name of any of the shoes in Fallout 4. They feel only mildly more significant than the pedestrians in Cyberpunk. However, Panam, Judy, Silverhand - they're at least memorable characters to some degree.
Or the boys from Final Fantasy XV - Again, not heavy on choice, but they all felt believable in their world.

Or we can move to an RPG that does give you a lot of choice in some regards but that also has a tighter world and a more believable cast; Gothic 2. Picking turnips on the farm and hunting for wolf skins to become an apprentice of the bow maker, or learning to use the smithy if you wanted the apprenticeship of the smith - the tasks were done in a way that made you feel engaged with the everyday lives of the people. Not mundane, but relatable.

Or as much as I give it ****, Mass Effect; You grew longer-term relations with the main crew and in some ways they could feel believable and not like empty husks. Same applies to Knights of The Old Republic

But even more so it applies to DP and Barb, Fin and Lucky, Uske and Charlie (Cyberpunk 2020 podcast characters: Dark Future Dice), Sevir and Elys (two of my DnD characters), etc.

Oh, or the ultimate incarnation of choice and believable beings; The adventure game The Longest Journey

 

[Gem21]

That's a good question! More realism in conversations, dynamic world and. Animation I think. I am really looking forward to what changes Bethesda has made to the role playing genre in starfield

 

[Huntn]

Well I think of it more like this.... (weird analogy inbound)

Imagine you have a store full of 10 billion shoes... Now you get to make 250 choices of which shoes to burn, which shoes to throw in the bin, which shoes to promote on more visible shelves and such. You can play around in this massive shoe shop all you want and make all these decisions about which shoes get to live and which shoes get glory.

To a shoe all this stuff seems important. But they're shoes. They have no soul, they are empty husks. They feel like their only purpose is to be worn and protect your feet, perhaps look pretty, perhaps to give a sense of scale! Wow! 10 billion shoes!
But how much more valueable is time with just a single human being than a bucketload of shoes?

It's not an RPG, it's not choice drive, but I care about Ellie and Joel. I can't even remember a single name of any of the shoes in Fallout 4. They feel only mildly more significant than the pedestrians in Cyberpunk. However, Panam, Judy, Silverhand - they're at least memorable characters to some degree.
Or the boys from Final Fantasy XV - Again, not heavy on choice, but they all felt believable in their world.

Or we can move to an RPG that does give you a lot of choice in some regards but that also has a tighter world and a more believable cast; Gothic 2. Picking turnips on the farm and hunting for wolf skins to become an apprentice of the bow maker, or learning to use the smithy if you wanted the apprenticeship of the smith - the tasks were done in a way that made you feel engaged with the everyday lives of the people. Not mundane, but relatable.

Or as much as I give it ****, Mass Effect; You grew longer-term relations with the main crew and in some ways they could feel believable and not like empty husks. Same applies to Knights of The Old Republic

But even more so it applies to DP and Barb, Fin and Lucky, Uske and Charlie (Cyberpunk 2020 podcast characters: Dark Future Dice), Sevir and Elys (two of my DnD characters), etc.

Oh, or the ultimate incarnation of choice and believable beings; The adventure game The Longest Journey

I disagree with your shoe analogy for F4, but agree with CP2077 characters being memorable, just like most of the companions in F4 who cry on your shoulder.

In F4 there is Preston Garvey (The Minuteman), Sturgis, Mama Murphy, the Railroad crew, Deak, Desdemona, Glory, and Tinker Tom who I become fond of, and was one of the reasons that although I infiltrated the Brotherhood of Steel, would not attack the Raiload, thought Elder Maxim was over zealous, but went out of my way to save Paladin Danse and anti-synth bigot, who discovered a shocking revelation about his heritage. Then there is Curie, the robot who wants to be a person, all engaging personalities and there are more.

So imo, these characters as far as the game can make them, are far from empty husks. Now this was from 2015, and characters like this become more alive based how much time is devoted to writing dialog and giving them back stories that they can express to the player. The more expressive they can be, the more they can be engaged through dialog, the more immersive they are to the player who engages with them. Hence my argument for organic conversations.