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What do you consider to be the next big breakthrough in RPGs?
- Thread starter Huntn
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A computer capable of simulating every atom in the universe would have to be at least as big as the universe itself. Unless of course, I dunno, there was some kind of physical phenomenon where the mere act of inspecting something might change its properties such that one could never verify the state of every known element without affecting it in that moment, meaning all states would not always have to be accounted for only the broad scale effects of them… Oh wait, the uncertainty principle… World is a computer simulation confirmedI’ve been talking about the Earth simulator for year.
Addendum, loads of other ways of making it work on a device smaller then the universe too, but all at the cost of some level of data or precision or changing the constant of the speed of light. But we’d never know if our speed of light is slightly slower than the speed of light in a world above ours ins the simulation stack anyway
I'm interested the game, however would like to know more without spoilers from a player.
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Is there a basis to say this? Not an argument, just a question. Wouldn't the storage medium take up less space than the actual physical object? Of course a lot would depend on the storage medium of which has not yet been invented. And when dealing with infinity who is to say how big something needs to be or could be? Maybe there would need to be a galaxy sized computer. Additionally we assume what we see in telescopes is a true representation of the universe around us.
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Another for Stalker here as the emersion is deep within the game world. Fairly recently played through Call of Pripyat and thoroughly enjoyed. Not cutting edge by any means, yet the game draws in the player. The AI is serviceable, more a FFP, survival, shooter Stalker still has an RPG allure. Not deep or technical, yet you can get lost in the game world and maybe that's what it's all about.
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It’s a story-driven game that is very well written. There is no action or combat in the usual sense, it’s all about solving detective mysteries and exploring a history of a world that was ravaged by economic and sociopolitical disasters. The gameplay is a combination of a usual point and click + extensive dialogues. You have access to multiple skills that allow you to pass skill checks (e.g. persuading a character) or uncovering information (e.g. noticing that a character is nervous or is hiding something). The interesting thing about game is that it features extensive introspective dialogues of the character with himself. In short, if you like a good story and don’t mind that an RPG is not revolving around fighting, you should definitely check it out!
The creator of the game is also a very interesting person, and it’s a truly indie project built by very passionate people, so not your regular mass consumption crap. And the soundtrack is superb.
Yes but only when the goal is a *perfect* simulation. If you limit the scope so that things that are not observed aren't perfectly simulated but approximated or just not present until observed; Like galaxies outside the currently observed universe, well it becomes a lot more manageable.Is there a basis to say this? No an argument, just a question. Wouldn't the storage medium take up less space than the actual physical object? Of course a lot would depend on the storage medium of which has not yet been invented. And when dealing with infinity who is to say how big something needs to be or could be? Maybe there would need to be a galaxy sized computer. Additionally we assume what we see in telescopes is a true representation of the universe around us.
Anyway the argument is this; If you take something fundamental like an electron, proton, neutron - To simulate its state we will need to store the state of that particle. The smallest thing we can store this on is an electron. Even if we have a perfect way to ensure any given particle's state perfectly matches what it's storing it's 1:1 between the particle we wish to simulate and the storage medium, because there exists nothing smaller on a base level. (assuming the world outside the simulation does not have smaller building-block particles than we do).
For a full perfect universe simulation, you'll need the exact state of every particle and thus at least one particle for each one. Compression could apply but then the time complexity increase to manage decompression and compression and we reduce the storage requirement but effectively change the speed of the simulation and thus what I said about the speed of light since that's effectively the speed of time in a way
I should add; I'm a computer scientist, not a physicist. I've heard this argument be made by a physicist and felt it seemed logical enough but I've not dug deep with it
Thx, I'll give the game another look. I like a good story, even if a slow burn. I don't even mind the "walking simulator" games as long as the narrative is compelling, with Conarium being one I've played through several times. Next I'll likely play is Paradise Lost as that too has interesting premise of alternative history...
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Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines as dated as it is today is one of my favorite RPGs, yet I don’t remember a lot of choice in it as far as the story, but there were some outstanding characters. I’m wondering if @Queen6 would call it a bad or good RPG because as I remember there were not that many significant choices, although there’s one I remember fondly deciding whose side to take with the Voermans.
Maybe there are ways to fool the viewer, such as in a game where the only thing drawn is what is in view, kind of like the galaxy example you mentioned. Calculations are made for what is not seen, but it's simpler than displaying all that's out there.
Alright, let's give Elder Scrolls some attention. Morrowind was a decent game. That's it. That's all the good I have to say about TES...
Yeah that's one of the compromises I was referencing, but if it were to be a "true perfect" simulation corners can't be cut like that. If we assume they can, it amplifies the age old question, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody's around does it still make a sound? - Because in this case, if the world is a non-perfect simulation, it quite literally wouldn't. It'd no longer be a philosophical question about the perceived world, it would literally be the reality of the world that the sound waves wouldn't be, only their effect emulated if retroactively needed
Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines is a good RPG, however tends to play different in comparison to what many newer RPG present. You may be limited in choice, however much of the rest of the game is driven by the player.
The fact that VTMB remains to be current today as an RPG speaks volumes, with numerous fan patches & mods. More focused on the open quest design and your character interactions within the game world than a branching narrative, as ultimately you get to play the role of the character. VTMB remains to be flawed, yet equally iconic.
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That is fair. Personally I played Morrowind and Oblivion but never finished either because I lost interest. I did finish Knights of the Old Republic though and loved every minute of it.
Morrowind was interesting because it was basically a flexible sandboxy story scripting engine which allowed Bethesda to do some interesting things. The rest of the series were a terrible disappointment for me, even if those were very successful games. In fact, I think Bethesda was the worst thing to happen to RPGs in the last decade. They have arcadified the genre, removed the choice, popularized superfluous mechanics over substance and ultimately took the soul out of the RPG games.
I remember I was very hyped for Oblivion because of the promised AI features. In the end the "Radiant AI" was just a bunch of NPCs bumping into each other in a tavern as well as guards that magically knew which fork was stolen. So disappointing.
KOTOR series were good!
The last serious RPGs I played were Mass Effect and Fallout 4. So I can’t pretend to be totally up with the field, but I have been playing them since I got hold of Ultima IV on the Atari ST.
Mass Effect I thought was great, fantastic story slightly marred by the infamous ending, great character options, a lot of variability in which missions you did outside the core storyline. The whole trilogy was excellent, and in places it had a very cinematic feel to it with full voice acting and cutscenes. The gameplay was often confined and not so open as other RPGs.
Fallout 4 I enjoyed playing through once, it seemed more a mixture of open world and RPG. There were a lot of aspects I enjoyed, such as the crafting, travelling open spaces and coming across small encounters. The post-apocalyptic setting I always thought was a bit meh, but it had some good points, there were always some nice surprises.
Mass Effect I thought was great, fantastic story slightly marred by the infamous ending, great character options, a lot of variability in which missions you did outside the core storyline. The whole trilogy was excellent, and in places it had a very cinematic feel to it with full voice acting and cutscenes. The gameplay was often confined and not so open as other RPGs.
Fallout 4 I enjoyed playing through once, it seemed more a mixture of open world and RPG. There were a lot of aspects I enjoyed, such as the crafting, travelling open spaces and coming across small encounters. The post-apocalyptic setting I always thought was a bit meh, but it had some good points, there were always some nice surprises.
I didn't manage to finish the Outer Worlds as I was not motivated to go on. The story was ok (although I though it was a bit shallow and that the choice system didn't really offer any choices), but the gameplay was really boring me. Overall, it was a disappointment for me, but the alien flora did look very pretty
I skipped OW, but have been playing the Outriders demo on PS5. Not sure if I am going to pull the trigger on it though (story appears to be somewhat lame so far).I didn't manage to finish the Outer Worlds as I was not motivated to go on. The story was ok (although I though it was a bit shallow and that the choice system didn't really offer any choices), but the gameplay was really boring me. Overall, it was a disappointment for me, but the alien flora did look very pretty
Agreed. Todd Howard is a heck of a salesman, good at speaking up Bethesda's games and making them sound super cool. But then you play them and they're, as you put it, soulless.
Haven't played but I will say this; Obsidian are some of the best developers in the business (makers of The Outer Worlds).
They also did Fallout New Vegas, and while they were limited by Bethesda both creatively and technically, using Bethesda's engine and toolchain, they made what is in my opinion, the best of the Bethesda era Fallout games.
Bethesda- By the time I looked at Morrowind, it was really dated looking, so I did not play it and can’t speak for the story. Now Oblivion, wowed the heck out of me, see that mountain, go climb it without a zone load, although there were zone loads for every town and dungeon. I played that and several of the DLC for over a year. Then Skyrim grabbed me and I played that for over a year too. They were both excellent RPGs according to my tastes.
Then there was Fallout 4, holy **** Armageddon, a post apocalyptic world, and trying to come back from that along with who took your son from a cyro chamber and murdered your spouse in the process?? I love that game and am still playing it. I like building settlements and making a difference in the Commonwealth. The main quest is stellar, it is the most compelling RPG I have played to date.
In certain aspects Cyberpunk 2077 which is newer is more impressive regarding visuals, motion capture, character interactions in the main and major side quests, but overall, much more effort imo was put into all of the quests in Fallout 4, making it feel like a more fleshed out world and rounded, where in CP the ton of lesser quests called Gigs, felt more like filler, tactical opportunities to bust heads and earn XP. You could spend weeks never sleeping, traveling like a social hermit from conflict to conflict, bust some heads, collect some loot, next!
In Fallout 4 there is a routine, driven by the main story, finding your lost son. You are given leads. When you discover the Minutmen, a whole new world opens up, establishing settlements, helping the Commonwealth change from a space full of roving highwaymen, to established settlements and relative order. You discover the (the evil) Institute and the stories about artificial humans (synths) who infiltrate the Commomwealth for it’s nefarious means sometimes murdering people, making them disappear, or replacing them. Then there are those who have suffered from exposure to radiation, gouls, feral gouls, and super Mutants some who are not all hostile. I know others will disagree, but I found all these elements to make for a very compelling world.
in comparison, Cyberpunk 2077 is mostly built on a single element in a cyberpunk setting, the story of a heist, the aftermath, and consequences for the main character which I also felt was excellent and worthy, as far as it went, with a very interesting group of characters, outstanding cyberpunk references, but it was more limited in scope than Fallout 4, although I thought V’s story was worthy and compelling.
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The best part of Oblivion, by far IMO, was the Shivering Isles DLC. The rest of the game felt too uninspired to me, but Shivering Isles had fantastic ideas, a fun setting, great characters, and if memory serves, dropped some of the insane level scaling they put in the game. The level scaling system in Oblivion really is what ruined the game to me. When everything in the entire world is always level-scaled to your character, the world has no areas that are dangerous, there's no dynamic growth to anything. You don't go "Wow I have grown so much!" because everything remains the same challenge rating
Maybe it's a generational difference, but I grew up with Fallout 1 and 2, and frankly, Fallout 3/4 was almost an insult. Let me just give you some examples. So, these games take place two centuries after the the nuclear war... but there are skeletons and broken cars literally everywhere. How would there be so many skeletons, in a desert, after two hundred years??? And are you really telling me that folks would not have dismantled everything ASAP to use as construction materials? Also, any raider base (which are seemingly everywhere) is filled to the brim with mutilated torsos, heads and other appetizing decorations. First, these are raiders, not cannibals. Second, where the hell are they supposed to get that many body parts? I swear, there are more body parts laying around all those bases than there is actual population in the game world. It's almost like there is someone running (a very successful) business of cloning body parts and selling them to the raiders so that they can keep up their Feng shui. How am I supposed to take the game seriously like this? And don't get me started on the level scaling nonsense... you play a game for a while and suddenly there are supermutants (an exclusive, small, elite group) everywhere...
See, that is the problem I have with Bethesda games. They only care about superfluous entertainment. I remember some years ago I was watching this video where a Skyrim developer was introducing the game on an expo and he spent like 5 minutes talking how detailed a 3D model of a salmon filet was, and how much effort their artists spent on it... And that is modern Bethesda in a nutshell. High-poly models of salmon — yes please! Immersive gameplay or world building? Meh, who cares really. Player actions having real repercussions? By all gods, of course not! After all, we wouldn't want to punish a player for a dialog choice, would we now?
The original Fallout series had none of that nonsense. It was a game where you had real interactions instead of dumb mobs that would attack you on sight. It was a game where you could talk or seduce your way out of most situations. It was a game where you could play a mentally disabled person or a drug addict. It was a game where wearing a power armor in a casino would intimidate the bouncers. That's what immersive gameplay is. And that is a 20+ year old game!
Never said F4 was perfect.
Here are my critiques of my favorite RPG:- 200 years later, there would not be standing dead trees all over the place. That’s why I got a greener commonwealth mod.
- Junk yard building. What, we can build a teleporter, and have electricity, yet we can’t at least build the equivalent of a 18th or 19th century house. Is a circular saw too advanced?? Mods fixed that too.
- The biggest issue I have with the game, is trying to force the player down two few lanes, either be with the Institute or destroy the Institute which is just plain dumb. Although some might chose to be with the Institute, no one in their right mind would choose to nuke the largest technological treasure trove of knowledge in existence. If sneaking in to blow the place up, it seems that a commando raid to take over the place would be viable, especially since you end up shooting anyway. And mods fixed that also.