What is benefit of a file manager? Please Explain

[AxoNeuron]

How many use those apps is irrelevant. The comment was that it's not included because of complexity on a small screen. The fact that Dropbox and others have achieved it proves it's not too complex to be accomplished. The number of users of those apps has nothing to do with the discussion.

Dropbox and Google Drive are not complicated to techies like you and me. But you apparently don't realize how many people out there just cannot even understand the concept of a folder system.

It's becoming obvious to me that you haven't really dealt with the public very often when it comes to tech, which used to be my job in the past. I'm not saying this because I'm just guessing.

I don't play the "Why did Apple do that?" or "Why didn't Apple do that?" game. The point I have been making in this thread is that while some users may not need or care about a user accessible file system on iOS, there is a large percentage of iOS users who have valid needs for such a functionality, without having to resort to multi-step and multi-app workarounds. For Apple to provide this functionality is not too complex, and the screens on iPhones are not too small for that feature, as proven by apps such as Dropbox that have successfully implemented access to their file system in iPhone and iPad apps.

They're not too complex. For you. But always remember, Apple didn't build the iPhone for you. It needs mass market appeal. I don't know why people have such a difficult time understanding this.

I'll just go ahead and say it, you'd be stunned how dumb the average iPhone/smartphone user is, how technologically inept they are. Not saying they're stupid in everything, but when it comes to technology, they really just don't know that much. Most techies don't realize how prevalent these people are. For every 1 techy, there are 9 other people out there who don't even know what a "filesystem" is.

 

[GGJstudios]

Dropbox and Google Drive are not complicated to techies like you and me. But you apparently don't realize how many people out there just cannot even understand the concept of a folder system.

It's becoming obvious to me that you haven't really dealt with the public very often when it comes to tech, which used to be my job in the past. I'm not saying this because I'm just guessing.

Making assumptions about someone's knowledge or experience without knowing anything about them can many times to foolish comments like these. I've been providing tech support to users of all experience levels for as long as PCs have been in existence.

They're not too complex. For you. But always remember, Apple didn't build the iPhone for you. It needs mass market appeal. I don't know why people have such a difficult time understanding this.

The need to attach documents to an email reply is a very common need, shared by many even barely-literate computer and iPhone users. You don't have to be a "techie" to have a need to attach a resume or a Word document and Excel spreadsheet to an email reply. No, not every iPhone user needs to do this, but enough do that justifies the need for this capability. It's just that us "techies" usually develop workarounds that would be way too complex for average users, which is another reason for a simple, easy to understand file system access for novice users.

 

[AxoNeuron]

Making assumptions about someone's knowledge or experience without knowing anything about them can many times to foolish comments like these. I've been providing tech support to users of all experience levels for as long as PCs have been in existence.

The need to attach documents to an email reply is a very common need, shared by many even barely-literate computer and iPhone users. You don't have to be a "techie" to have a need to attach a resume or a Word document and Excel spreadsheet to an email reply. No, not every iPhone user needs to do this, but enough do that justifies the need for this capability. It's just that us "techies" usually develop workarounds that would be way too complex for average users, which is another reason for a simple, easy to understand file system access for novice users.

Buddy, tell me. Why do you think Apple didn't include a filesystem on iOS, and shows zero signs of doing so in the future? Do you think they're just being dumb?

This is exactly why, because they know that the average iPhone user just isn't tech savvy enough to understand file systems and directories. You don't seem to realize how little these people understand computers, because it's sad.

 

[GGJstudios]

Why do you think Apple didn't include a filesystem on iOS, and shows zero signs of doing so in the future?

Others in this thread have stated that apparently there are signs of doing so with iOS 8. Time will tell.

 

[AxoNeuron]

Others in this thread have stated that apparently there are signs of doing so with iOS 8. Time will tell.

I've been using iOS 8 since beta 1, and if anything, Apple is moving even further away from file systems. Things like the Extensibility framework are the antithesis of a file system. I personally think apple is doing a pretty good job of appeasing the largest number of users.

 

[GGJstudios]

I personally think apple is doing a pretty good job of appeasing the largest number of users.

Good for you. Others have a different view.

 

[FSMBP]

Buddy, tell me. Why do you think Apple didn't include a filesystem on iOS, and shows zero signs of doing so in the future? Do you think they're just being dumb?

This is exactly why, because they know that the average iPhone user just isn't tech savvy enough to understand file systems and directories. You don't seem to realize how little these people understand computers, because it's sad.

You realize that iOS app's like Apple's own Pages has Files/Folders:

http://ipadnotebook.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/img_0222.png

Apple is only changing how people reach these files/folders. They want people to access them through the Apps they are created. That's great - but also allow people to view the files without having to dive into the App.

 

[shandyman]

It's not a comparison with other companies or platforms. It's comparing iOS without an accessible file manager to iOS with one.

It doesn't matter whether the apps are Apple or 3rd party. Having to use 2 or more apps to provide such basic functions is still lacking, compared to the simple functionality that an accessible file manager would provide.

So although iBooks is an Apple app, and therefore not technically 3rd party, it still requires using another app just to get the PDF attached to an email message, instead of doing it directly from the mail app. If the PDF resides in Dropbox, you have to open it in Dropbox, then open it in iBooks or Adobe Reader, then send it to Mail. Try doing the same thing with a Word or Excel document.

The point is, you don't have to jump through those convoluted hoops if you have a file system that you can browse and access a file directly.

Well a file manager would be an app as well. The way you talk about Dropbox makes it sound like you've never used it. It's not as complex as you make it sound. Dropbox natively can open PDFs and you can easily tap the share button and it composes the email within Dropbox, it works exactly how you want a file manager to work. Same with word and excel.

ICloud Drive makes things easier going forward, having the one place for files, so you can see the same PDF in whatever app.

All that is missing is the ability to attach from iCloud Drive within an email, don't think we will have to wait long for that.

 

[sddabrow]

Good for you. Others have a different view.

I'm with you on this one GGJ. Out of every one I know that owns an iPhone, the biggest complaint is email attachments.

All I am asking for is an easy way to attach a file on a reply email or attached more than one attachment to a new email. That is really all I would really request.

That is about as barebones as it gets and I believe saying the mass market is not 'techy' enough for that is just ridiculous. Email attachments have been around forever, and if a user knows how to attach a picture.. how hard would it be to attach a file instead?

I agree that a full fledged file management system could be troublesome to those who do not understand it. But let us at least have a better way to attach files to emails!

 

[GGJstudios]

Well a file manager would be an app as well. The way you talk about Dropbox makes it sound like you've never used it.

Again, assumptions based on no facts. I use Dropbox extensively every day, and have for years, on both OS X and iOS.

Dropbox natively can open PDFs and you can easily tap the share button and it composes the email within Dropbox, it works exactly how you want a file manager to work.

No, it doesn't. When you do as you describe in Dropbox, it does not attach a file to the email, but rather a link to the file in your Dropbox folder. That is not the desired action. I want the file itself to be attached, with no mention of Dropbox in my email. Also, you can't click reply to an email and attach files to the reply, as stated several times in this thread. The Dropbox app does not accommodate that very basic need.

 

[shandyman]

What is benefit of a file manager? Please Explain

Again, assumptions based on no facts. I use Dropbox extensively every day, and have for years, on both OS X and iOS.

No, it doesn't. When you do as you describe in Dropbox, it does not attach a file to the email, but rather a link to the file in your Dropbox folder. That is not the desired action. I want the file itself to be attached, with no mention of Dropbox in my email. Also, you can't click reply to an email and attach files to the reply, as stated several times in this thread. The Dropbox app does not accommodate that very basic need.

Apologies, yes it provides a link to the file, but still, the end result is the same. This is down to dropbox's poor design though, other apps actually attach the documents.

With iCloud Drive, this will mean all apps can see the same file and modify them. You seem to still ignore this fact, which will be reality in a month.....

That will mostly reduce your issues to being able to attach direct from mail, which I already acknowledged and agreed with, so you don't have to flog that horse. This isn't showing in the beta. It may appear down the line in another release.

Additionally, you skipped over the fqct that a file manager is another app to use.

 

[GGJstudios]

Apologies, yes it provides a link to the file, but still, the end result is the same.

No, the result is not the same. A link is not the same as sending the actual file. Some recipients will not accept links, but only files in a certain format. Also, I may want to send a file, then delete it from my Dropbox to save space. If I send a link, then delete the file, the recipient can't access the file, as they would if I had sent the actual attachment. It's a poor and many times unacceptable substitute.

other apps actually attach the documents.

And we're back to convoluted workarounds for something that should be simple.

With iCloud Drive, this will mean all apps can see the same file and modify them. You seem to still ignore this fact, which will be reality in a month.....

That still doesn't mean we'll be able to attach more than one file (other than photos) to an email reply. It's not a reality now, so we'll have to wait and see.

Additionally, you skipped over the fqct that a file manager is another app to use.

Yes, Finder is another app in OS X. However, you can click reply to an email, then browse files and attach what you want from within the Mail interface. It's not the same as having to launch another app, then create an email message from that app.

It's amusing that so many are trying to justify the absence of this feature. It escapes me why would people argue against the obvious need for this basic functionality, which is clearly used daily by hundreds of millions of users in Windows and OS X. The idea of having mobile devices is so we can continue our work while mobile. That's why those devices have email capabilities. This isn't rocket science. You don't need to be a "techie" or advanced user to have a need for attaching multiple files to an email reply.

 

[AxoNeuron]

You realize that iOS app's like Apple's own Pages has Files/Folders:

http://ipadnotebook.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/img_0222.png

Apple is only changing how people reach these files/folders. They want people to access them through the Apps they are created. That's great - but also allow people to view the files without having to dive into the App.

Yes, and you can have folders of apps on the home screen. But that isn't really a file system in the classical sense, since they are limited to a single file type (in Pages its a document). In a classical file system that most people on this thread are yearning for, a file system is a directory with folders and sub folders that can hold any and all file types. This is what I'm talking about. A classical file system is just too abstract for your average non-tech-savvy user to understand and make effective use of.

 

[GGJstudios]

A classical file system is just too abstract for your average non-tech-savvy user to understand and make effective use of.

And yet, hundreds of millions of Windows and OS X users have been using such file systems for years. Your assessment of the "average non-tech-savvy user" is inaccurate. We're not talking about users who barely know how to make a phone call. We're talking about users who use a smart phone for email, web-surfing and many other uses. These users are quite familiar with email attachments and browsing a file system to select files to attach, since they've been doing it for many years.

 

[AxoNeuron]

I'm with you on this one GGJ. Out of every one I know that owns an iPhone, the biggest complaint is email attachments.

All I am asking for is an easy way to attach a file on a reply email or attached more than one attachment to a new email. That is really all I would really request.

That is about as barebones as it gets and I believe saying the mass market is not 'techy' enough for that is just ridiculous. Email attachments have been around forever, and if a user knows how to attach a picture.. how hard would it be to attach a file instead?

I agree that a full fledged file management system could be troublesome to those who do not understand it. But let us at least have a better way to attach files to emails!

I'm not talking about email attachments at all...I'm saying that your classical computer file system with folders and directories would just be too complicated for a large percentage of iPhone users.

You know when ios 7 came out, there was that Reddit poster that looked like it was genuinely from Apple that said iOS 7 makes your iPhone water proof? You'd be stunned how many people actually believed it and tried to dunk their iphone under water after installing ios 7. THESE are the people who would have trouble with a classical file system with folders and directories of mixed filetypes, and you'd be surprised at how big a percentage of the iphone/smartphone user community these people make up.

Apple should include an easy way to attach documents to emails, I would agree. But trying to use a classical file system with folders and directories would cause more problems with people who aren't tech savvy than it would solve.

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And yet, hundreds of millions of Windows and OS X users have been using such file systems for years. Your assessment of the "average non-tech-savvy user" is inaccurate. We're not talking about users who barely know how to make a phone call. We're talking about users who use a smart phone for email, web-surfing and many other uses. These users are quite familiar with email attachments and browsing a file system to select files to attach, since they've been doing it for many years.

Yes, and do you know what a disaster it has been? Do you know how many people call Apple or Microsoft support every day because "OMG I lost all my pictures!!!111" when it turns out they just moved a folder somewhere?

These people are everywhere, and in the past few years they have largely stopped using computers and moved on to iPads or other tablets because they just think computers are too complicated.

This is EXACTLY why Microsoft created the Metro interface for Windows, so that these people (and anyone on a tablet, really) would have an easier time using the computer without having to deal with folders and subdirectories. And it's exactly why Apple has steered well clear of using a classical filesystem interface on iOS.

 

[Armen]

but suppose I want to send a client:

a photo of a piece of hardware
a PDF of its dimensions/specifications/O&M
an excel pricelist for its variants

for neatness all in one email?

Do you actually carry your entire inventory of items (photos, docs, price lists) on your mobile phone? What you're asking for most people do from a desktop/laptop computer from within an office.

 

[snorkelman]

Do you actually carry your entire inventory of items (photos, docs, price lists) on your mobile phone? What you're asking for most people do from a desktop/laptop computer from within an office.

and I expect they'll continue to if the option isn't there in another device (which could just as easily be an ipad as a phone seeing as this is an iOS discussion not an exclusively iPhone one)

I actually do carry most details of our main product lines on my phone and on ipad - we service and repair as well so I need documentation to hand for personal reference.

 

[shandyman]

No, the result is not the same. A link is not the same as sending the actual file. Some recipients will not accept links, but only files in a certain format. Also, I may want to send a file, then delete it from my Dropbox to save space. If I send a link, then delete the file, the recipient can't access the file, as they would if I had sent the actual attachment. It's a poor and many times unacceptable substitute.

The end result is the person gets the file you want them to get, ergo yes it is the same. You're adding conditions, modifying your original question. What if the file is too big for an email? Links are better in that case. See I can add conditions too...

And we're back to convoluted workarounds for something that should be simple.

It's not convoluted. You go into the app, share the file, it composes the email within the app. Same process as dropbox, but instead of a link, the actual file. It's simple.

That still doesn't mean we'll be able to attach more than one file (other than photos) to an email reply. It's not a reality now, so we'll have to wait and see.

That's a crap comment. Its not a maybe, iCloud Drive is a definite. As for multiple attachments, already said about that in my previous post.

Yes, Finder is another app in OS X. However, you can click reply to an email, then browse files and attach what you want from within the Mail interface. It's not the same as having to launch another app, then create an email message from that app.

Again, I've already covered attaching directly in an email, don't know why you keep harping on about that. Also you contradicted yourself in that paragraph.

It's amusing that so many are trying to justify the absence of this feature. It escapes me why would people argue against the obvious need for this basic functionality, which is clearly used daily by hundreds of millions of users in Windows and OS X. The idea of having mobile devices is so we can continue our work while mobile. That's why those devices have email capabilities. This isn't rocket science. You don't need to be a "techie" or advanced user to have a need for attaching multiple files to an email reply.

People have managed to cope for 7 years without a file system. That's justification enough. iCloud Drive is definitely the compromise between the 2 viewpoints. All Apple need to do after, is to enable to add other files within an email and that'll do for the majority of the people clamouring for a file browser. Some will never be happy. You will be one of those I reckon. Some people like things overly complicated.

 

[GGJstudios]

The end result is the person gets the file you want them to get, ergo yes it is the same. You're adding conditions, modifying your original question.

No, I'm not adding conditions. The original requirement was to attach files to emails, not links to files. It is not the same.

What if the file is too big for an email? Links are better in that case.

I agree, but that's not what is being discussed. You're adding a condition to justify using a method that does not meet the original requirement.

It's not convoluted. You go into the app, share the file, it composes the email within the app.

In case you've missed reading the thread, the most common example used is attaching files to an email reply. What you describe will only attach one file per email, and will not attach files to an email reply.

Its not a maybe, iCloud Drive is a definite. As for multiple attachments, already said about that in my previous post.

I've seen lots of "definites" that didn't pan out. When it actually happens, then and only then is it reality.

People have managed to cope for 7 years without a file system.

People managed to cope for thousands of years without automobiles, computers or mobile devices. So what's your point? Because we haven't had it in the past, we shouldn't expect it or need it now?

That's justification enough.

Not hardly.

All Apple need to do after, is to enable to add other files within an email and that'll do for the majority of the people clamouring for a file browser. Some will never be happy. You will be one of those I reckon. Some people like things overly complicated.

I can be happy with what I have and still have a valid use for additional advancements in technology. Why are you so opposed to the idea that others expect or want functionality that is currently achievable and would greatly simplify basic work functions? Whether or not it will happen in the near or distant future, it is a valid need shared by millions of users, even if you don't share that need.

 

[Skika]

I hope file manager never EVER comes to iOS.

Truly disgusting even to think about it.

 

[C DM]

I hope file manager never EVER comes to iOS.

Truly disgusting even to think about it.

Horrible, just horrible. Won't somebody think of the children?!

 

[Armen]

and I expect they'll continue to if the option isn't there in another device (which could just as easily be an ipad as a phone seeing as this is an iOS discussion not an exclusively iPhone one)

I actually do carry most details of our main product lines on my phone and on ipad - we service and repair as well so I need documentation to hand for personal reference.

Gotcha, then that feature would be great for you.

 

[ziggie216]

Yes, and do you know what a disaster it has been? Do you know how many people call Apple or Microsoft support every day because "OMG I lost all my pictures!!!111" when it turns out they just moved a folder somewhere?

These people are everywhere, and in the past few years they have largely stopped using computers and moved on to iPads or other tablets because they just think computers are too complicated.

This is EXACTLY why Microsoft created the Metro interface for Windows, so that these people (and anyone on a tablet, really) would have an easier time using the computer without having to deal with folders and subdirectories. And it's exactly why Apple has steered well clear of using a classical filesystem interface on iOS.

No exactly related to "file manager" but you just reminded me of some of my lack any technical skill customers. If they accidentally delete an icon (Windows) from their desktop, all productive would stop. They have no concept of clicking on the Start button to find the application. So back your comment, same idea. No matter how simple a concept is, there will always be someone who can't figure it out.

 

[C DM]

No exactly related to "file manager" but you just reminded me of some of my lack any technical skill customers. If they accidentally delete an icon (Windows) from their desktop, all productive would stop. They have no concept of clicking on the Start button to find the application. So back your comment, same idea. No matter how simple a concept is, there will always be someone who can't figure it out.

Sure, but that's not a good reason not to include some fairly basic and simple features for those who would actually want to and be able to use it.

 

[snorkelman]

I really don't get why we cant at least have following:

want to share a file by mail attachment? click the apps share button, select the file(s). Choose mail as the method of sharing

If theres no mail message currently open for editing, then mail creates a new mail message and throws them into that. Same as current procedure.

However, if there's already a message open for editing, mail asks whether you want to place these files in that existing open message or create a new message for them. Allowing for an email with multiple app attachments.

That doesn't strike me as adding greatly to complexity of the user experience, Even set it to off by default with current 'classic' method being the out of the box option.

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Gotcha, then that feature would be great for you.

Aye would be mana from heaven for me - I could leave the macbook over at the office instead of lugging it around from site to site for little more reason than to compose mixed-multi-attachment emails