Where do YOU go to college or went?

[63dot]

ok, your numbers are off. You mentioned UW MAdison. Undergrad tuition and expenses for out-of-state students is estimated at about 37k per year. Undergrad tuition and expenses at Princeton is estimated at 46k annual. Thats a difference of 9k annually, or 36k over a typical 4-year degree. Where is this 6-figure cost difference you speak of?

When you replied to the poster, I think he/she is talking about in state people who went to UW. I mean, isn't that the basic idea of a public institution, to serve first and foremost the K-12 and college students of that state?

An out of state person can go to Cal Berkeley's MBA school (Haas) for a high price, but also Stanford's MBA school for around the same price. When I looked into it Cal's MBA out of state cost, it was 39K for two years and Stanford was 46K for two years. It would make more sense to do the Stanford route if you got accepted to both.

Now for someone who lives in California and then got Cal and Stanford accepted for MBA programs, the difference in cost would be a factor since in-state Cal tuition is considerably less (or was so before Governor Terminator) than Stanford's tuition. If I was shooting for Fortune 500 CEO, then Stanford would be the choice had I got accepted to both. But very few MBAs I know of are going for the head of a major company. From the bios from b-school grads from my school, they worked their way up to Microsoft President and COO, SGI CEO, eBay co-founder and venture capitalist, Wells Fargo Senior VP, or Teledyne CEO but when they got their college business education, the thought of even going that high would have been considered preposterous. Who walks through the halls of b-school thinking they will either head a billion dollar company, or in one case, become a billionaire? I don't know if one can study accounting, like Richard Belluzo did, get their bachelor's (not even MBA), and then all of a sudden "know" they would become President of Microsoft.

Personally I would still go into debt and go for Stanford, but being a California resident (and let's assume I wanted to stay here), I would think that Cal is certainly not a bad choice for an MBA school. For those in California who think it's Stanford or nothing for either undergrad or grad, and sadly there are too many of those types in Northern California, then I think they are being way too narrow minded. Few know Cal's b-school is right up there with Stanford. Few know that Cal's law school is up there with Stanford. Few know that University of California San Francisco is up there in healthcare like Stanford.

I am not going to walk out of my doctor's office, if they were my oncologist, because they went to the state funded University of California San Francisco, and not Stanford. That being said, Stanford has a great cancer center made up of grads from many medical schools. I had the unfortunate deal of having to go there and plunk down a ton of money.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

you assume everyone who goes to college takes on debt

even with out debt still translated into $140k difference.

Either way an Ivy leage will cost you a $140k more compared to a state school. Tell me where you would break even in that cost difference..

 

[63dot]

even with out debt still translated into $140k difference.

Either way an Ivy leage will cost you a $140k more compared to a state school. Tell me where you would break even in that cost difference..

It's really simple. Go to an Ivy League school for both undergrad and grad, and the grad school will pay itself off. But for four years of Ivy undergrad, all you simply have to do is win the Lotto. No brainer, dude. Either that, or develop an accurate 95 mph fastball or learn how to shoot a 59 on any golf course in the world, consistently.

 

[thebassoonist]

I went to the University of Utah for my BSc. Now I'm at University of California, Davis working on my MS. I plan to stay at UC Davis for my PhD.

I love my cowtown!

 

[einmusiker]

When you replied to the poster, I think he/she is talking about in state people who went to UW. I mean, isn't that the basic idea of a public institution, to serve first and foremost the K-12 and college students of that state?

An out of state person can go to Cal Berkeley's MBA school (Haas) for a high price, but also Stanford's MBA school for around the same price. When I looked into it Cal's MBA out of state cost, it was 39K for two years and Stanford was 46K for two years. It would make more sense to do the Stanford route if you got accepted to both.

Now for someone who lives in California and then got Cal and Stanford accepted for MBA programs, the difference in cost would be a factor since in-state Cal tuition is considerably less (or was so before Governor Terminator) than Stanford's tuition. If I was shooting for Fortune 500 CEO, then Stanford would be the choice had I got accepted to both. But very few MBAs I know of are going for the head of a major company. From the bios from b-school grads from my school, they worked their way up to Microsoft President and COO, SGI CEO, eBay co-founder and venture capitalist, Wells Fargo Senior VP, or Teledyne CEO but when they got their college business education, the thought of even going that high would have been considered preposterous. Who walks through the halls of b-school thinking they will either head a billion dollar company, or in one case, become a billionaire? I don't know if one can study accounting, like Richard Belluzo did, get their bachelor's (not even MBA), and then all of a sudden "know" they would become President of Microsoft.

Personally I would still go into debt and go for Stanford, but being a California resident (and let's assume I wanted to stay here), I would think that Cal is certainly not a bad choice for an MBA school. For those in California who think it's Stanford or nothing for either undergrad or grad, and sadly there are too many of those types in Northern California, then I think they are being way too narrow minded. Few know Cal's b-school is right up there with Stanford. Few know that Cal's law school is up there with Stanford. Few know that University of California San Francisco is up there in healthcare like Stanford.

I am not going to walk out of my doctor's office, if they were my oncologist, because they went to the state funded University of California San Francisco, and not Stanford. That being said, Stanford has a great cancer center made up of grads from many medical schools. I had the unfortunate deal of having to go there and plunk down a ton of money.

valid points all of them, but Rodimus is implying that it's perfectly fine to go to a cal state school for grad school over stanford, which is simply not the case.

RP the difference is substantial, particularly in today's job market where a college degree is what once was a high school diploma. I'm not saying that graduates don't still have to be competent and hard-working (in most positions), but the name on the expensive wallpaper does matter.

 

[yojitani]

I haven't read all the posts here, but concerning the name of the school: the name doesn't, in my experience, necessarily guarantee a great education. However, the name matters on the job market if you are thinking in terms of fortune 500 companies. Many of them (maybe all of them) recruit from big schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford etc. in the US) for new hires. The chances of getting in from other schools is slim UNLESS you have proven yourself in other contexts (such as excelling in a different company). It's all old boy network stuff, unfortunately.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

valid points all of them, but Rodimus is implying that it's perfectly fine to go to a cal state school for grad school over stanford, which is simply not the case.

RP the difference is substantial, particularly in today's job market where a college degree is what once was a high school diploma. I'm not saying that graduates don't still have to be competent and hard-working (in most positions), but the name on the expensive wallpaper does matter.

No I never said a college degree is a HS Diploma. I just said that the degree is what matter more than the Name of the school.

For example an Engineering Degree in CE is worth about the same weather it comes from some random Engineering school or MIT. As long as both are accredited.

I haven't read all the posts here, but concerning the name of the school: the name doesn't, in my experience, necessarily guarantee a great education. However, the name matters on the job market if you are thinking in terms of fortune 500 companies. Many of them (maybe all of them) recruit from big schools (Harvard, Yale, Stanford etc. in the US) for new hires. The chances of getting in from other schools is slim UNLESS you have proven yourself in other contexts (such as excelling in a different company). It's all old boy network stuff, unfortunately.

I think all you high lighted is the name of the school makes getting your foot in the door fresh out of school easier. 5 years down the road who cares.

As for a link to a study from CNN.com that proves my point even more

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/20/pf/expert/ask_expert/

Sum it up you take people who are of the caliber to get into an Ivy league but turn it down for cost reasons and went to a local school save a fortune and guess what they found. They were making roughly the same as the people out Ivy league. If you are of Ivy League caliber to be accepted it does not matter were you go.

Other places in a carreer building.com article had reports of some company turning down the Ivy leagers because they were finding better candidates at State schools. The people from Ivy Leagues were to proud of themselves and would leave in a heart beat and really did not do any better work than their requites from Texas A&M

 

[einmusiker]

No I never said a college degree is a HS Diploma. I just said that the degree is what matter more than the Name of the school.

For example an Engineering Degree in CE is worth about the same weather it comes from some random Engineering school or MIT. As long as both are accredited.



I think all you high lighted is the name of the school makes getting your foot in the door fresh out of school easier. 5 years down the road who cares.

As for a link to a study from CNN.com that proves my point even more

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/20/pf/expert/ask_expert/

Sum it up you take people who are of the caliber to get into an Ivy league but turn it down for cost reasons and went to a local school save a fortune and guess what they found. They were making roughly the same as the people out Ivy league. If you are of Ivy League caliber to be accepted it does not matter were you go.

Other places in a carreer building.com article had reports of some company turning down the Ivy leagers because they were finding better candidates at State schools. The people from Ivy Leagues were to proud of themselves and would leave in a heart beat and really did not do any better work than their requites from Texas A&M

did you read the entire article?

A study on the same topic by Cornell economist Ronald Ehrenberg and two Rand Corporation researchers came to the opposite conclusion, finding that "even after controlling for selection effects, there is strong evidence of significant economic return to attending an elite private institution." What's more, this group even found some evidence that "this premium has increased over time."

 

[Rodimus Prime]

did you read the entire article?

I read part of it. I do not agree with it. You are going to have a very hard time convening me that a $140k+ cost difference is worth it.

Unless you come from money that is going to be a lot of debt to take on and those people who come from that much money have have Mommy and Daddy for a lot of other network advantages.

So $140k at a nice 4-5% interested rate. is going to be VERY costly to make up and chances are good that you will NEVER make it up. Best you can do is hope to break even but chances are you will be out most of it.

Now the name on the school will make finding that first job easier as the places that requite from there.

 

[63dot]

I read part of it. I do not agree with it. You are going to have a very hard time convening me that a $140k+ cost difference is worth it.

Unless you come from money that is going to be a lot of debt to take on and those people who come from that much money have have Mommy and Daddy for a lot of other network advantages.

So $140k at a nice 4-5% interested rate. is going to be VERY costly to make up and chances are good that you will NEVER make it up. Best you can do is hope to break even but chances are you will be out most of it.

Now the name on the school will make finding that first job easier as the places that requite from there.

I think what you say is largely correct.

I also believe those who have families that can afford the Ivies have the money anyway, which the children will most likely inherit a good sum of. School name means nothing with people from truly rich families. Whether the kid went to Harvard or dropped out of community college, they are almost guaranteed to never be able to spend the family fortune. They are simply that wealthy.

Also if you come from a rich family, you will have connections whether you go to school or not.

And if you go to school, your family's wealth and rich connections will pretty much make any school a non-factor of how you do in college. Finish or not, the kid knows they will be set for several lifetimes.

I had a girlfriend from a rural town who had a friend whose daddy had tens or hundreds of thousands of agricultural acres (vegetables and wine country) and that family was extremely rich. The friend had the choice of spending four years in college, but decided not to as it would have no effect on the hundreds of millions this prominent Northern California family had in real estate, land, cash, and other assets.

But there could be something to be said for an Ivy school:

I will try and convince you, that in a very small percentage of people who don't have great sums of money who choose an Ivy, they do eventually come out ahead. When I was in MBA school we studied this in macroeconomics. The tendency, and increasingly so, is that the trend shows people who are born rich stay rich and the rest of the populace float within the bounds of upper middle class/middle class/lower middle class for generations.

The only reason I would want my kid to go to a great school is that I don't have that money, and it's the connections the kid could get which will most likely (in the very long term) make that Ivy school worth it in the end. All it takes is one contact to change your entire life. The chances are greatly increased if you go to an Ivy vs. a state school (even a Cal Berkeley or UCLA) where the rich and connected don't send their kids. In California, Stanford and USC are very popular for already very rich families who don't send their kids east.

It still comes down to which parents you chose wisely at birth:

I hate to say it, but the parents want their rich kid to meet somebody else rich and basically in their own version of an American Caste and find a rich or richer mate. (and yes we do have that caste business but in a more subtle sense). Just look at Stanford magazine and the marriage matchmakers put their ads into every issue.

I had a friend join such a pricey dating/matchmaking service, and just one meeting with one girl, from a girl in their club cost $1,400 dollars. He's the scion of an insurance company and she was blue blood with money. The date didn't turn out as anything special but it's what many rich people do. He felt awkward that this whole business had no free will in it from its members, but had the hands of the parents/family owned corporations pulling the strings. There is almost no freedom in this man choosing a wife unless the family and the managers of their huge assets agree to the mate. It's the reason you probably won't see BGs kids meeting somebody at a bar and marrying them like in some Hollywood chick flick.

 

[miki66]

u of i at chicago, undergrad for industrial design (as john ive's major)

 

[MacAztec]

Another Cal Poly person here. I did some undergrad work there, but finished elsewhere and did graduate work elsewhere. But if I had stayed in San Luis Obispo, I would have done it all Cal Poly, regardless of major or level of education. (However, they don't do law, medical, pharmacy, or dental schools).

While a pretty decent school, what really made Cal Poly great for me was the town of San Luis Obispo. I went there nearly 3 decades ago and the last time I visited in 2000, the town was basically the same with it's small town charm.

A few years ago I looked into teaching there and that would have been a sweet gig.

Still a great city, and a great school.

I chose Cal Poly on a whim, and didn't know much about the school.

I go to find that nearly all of their Engineering Disciplines are ranked #1 or #2 in the Nation, for Universities that do not offer a PHD.

The town is wonderful. Great College town. It's clean, fun, tons to do, very active, etc.

Love this place.

 

[Signal-11]

Again I never said Ivy do not make more money. I said that the amount extra they make will never justify how much more they cost.

Again provide me proof that say that Ivy make so much more on average that they justify the extra 6 figure cost difference in what you have to pay to go there.

I see this argument every time the issue of colleges comes up and I always see the same guys making the same points.

This argument would hold more water with me if it ever took into account that Ivy and high prestige universities provide very generous financial aid packages, because they have the money to do so.

Here's the debt index for US National Universities:

Most Debt - National Universities:
School, % of grads with debt, Average amount of debt
Seton Hall University (NJ) 61% $37,724
New York University 61% $34,417
Worcester Polytechnic Institute (MA) 83% $34,409
University of North Dakota * 72% $33,032
Pace University (NY) 72% $32,980
Iowa State University * 69% $32,130
Pepperdine University (CA) 62% $31,718
Nova Southeastern University (FL) 69% $31,368
Drexel University (PA) 75% $31,333
Hofstra University (NY) 52% $31,196
University of St. Thomas (MN) 66% $31,065
New School (NY) 68% $31,039
St. John's University (NY) 73% $29,920
George Washington University (DC) 40% $29,304
University of La Verne (CA) 66% $28,856
Stevens Institute of Technology (NJ) 72% $28,829
St. Mary's University of Minnesota 74% $28,500
Long Island University–C.W. Post Campus (NY) 79% $28,125
University of San Francisco 64% $28,000
Florida A&M University * 82% $27,640
University of Rochester (NY) 56% $27,497
Carnegie Mellon University (PA) 52% $27,395
Temple University (PA)* 70% $27,355
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (NY) 75% $27,235
Duquesne University (PA) 80% $27,080
University of Denver 47% $27,008
Fordham University (NY) 64% $26,879
St. Louis University 67% $26,754
University of San Diego 38% $26,639
University of Notre Dame (IN) 57% $26,285
Florida Institute of Technology 66% $25,768
Marquette University (WI) 65% $25,753
University of Tulsa (OK) 54% $25,692
Pacific University (OR) 90% $25,683
Lehigh University (PA) 53% $25,603
Loyola University Chicago 67% $25,470
Andrews University (MI) 68% $25,084
Polytechnic University (NY) 75% $25,012
SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry * 92% $25,000
Cornell University (NY) 55% $24,928
Georgetown University (DC) 46% $24,816
University of Alaska–Fairbanks * 55% $24,698
University of Miami (FL) 58% $24,673
Emory University (GA) 39% $24,272
Case Western Reserve University (OH) 56% $24,098
University of New Hampshire * 72% $23,928
Michigan State University * 55% $23,620
University of Vermont * 61% $23,557
University of Michigan–Ann Arbor * 44% $23,533
Pennsylvania State University–University Park * 66% $23,500
Syracuse University (NY) 64% $23,500
Duke University (NC) 40% $23,499
Tennessee State University * 82% $23,119
Bowling Green State University (OH)* 74% $22,929
Boston University 59% $22,913
University of Maryland–Baltimore County * 46% $22,856
Clark University (MA) 93% $22,600* 67% $22,542
University of Missouri–Rolla * 65% $22,500
University of New Orleans * 36% $22,350
Miami University–Oxford (OH)* 52% $22,255
Kent State University (OH)* 72% $22,230
Golden Gate University (CA) 45% $21,780
University of Memphis * 22% $21,703
Dartmouth College (NH) 52% $21,561
Auburn University (AL)* 64% $21,256
Tulane University (LA) 43% $21,243
University of Pennsylvania 41% $20,927
Wichita State University (KS)* 61% $20,875
Virginia Commonwealth University * 66% $20,828
Indiana State University * 69% $20,764
University of Dayton (OH) 76% $20,731
South Dakota State University * 81% $20,682
Wake Forest University (NC) 37% $20,655
North Dakota State University * 62% $20,581
Boston College 53% $20,350
Texas Tech University * 55% $20,333
University of Connecticut * 60% $20,303
University of Wisconsin–Madison * 47% $20,282
University of Alabama–Huntsville * 30% $20,273
Idaho State University * 71% $20,253
University of Iowa * 61% $20,234
University of South Dakota * 88% $20,163
Purdue University–West Lafayette (IN)* 47% $20,102
University of Cincinnati * 47% $20,052
University of Idaho * 69% $20,002
Brandeis University (MA) 67% $19,892
Virginia Tech * 52% $19,807
Mississippi State University * 43% $19,780
American University (DC) 50% $19,766
Northern Illinois University * 38% $19,764
Indiana University–Bloomington * 53% $19,756
Oregon State University * 60% $19,550
Oklahoma State University * 59% $19,547
Vanderbilt University (TN) 38% $19,429
University of South Carolina–Columbia * 44% $19,360
University of Oklahoma * 52% $19,206
University of Kansas * 43% $19,203
Ohio University * 63% $19,194
Texas A&M University–Commerce * 67% $19,032
University of Missouri–Columbia * 59% $18,983
Montana State University * 65% $18,914
Northwestern University (IL) 46% $18,860
University of Oregon * 59% $18,813
University of North Carolina–Greensboro * 61% $18,804
Azusa Pacific University (CA) 58% $18,777
University of Alabama–Birmingham * 41% $18,764
University of Alabama * 41% $18,700
Washington State University * 60% $18,692
Samford University (AL) 46% $18,501
University of Southern California 54% $18,257
University of Tennessee * 47% $18,254
Texas A&M University–College Station * 50% $18,247
University of Missouri–Kansas City * 97% $18,227
University of Arkansas * 46% $18,172
Georgia Southern University * 66% $18,146
University of Missouri–St. Louis * 65% $18,143
Ohio State University–Columbus * 56% $18,130
University of Nebraska–Lincoln * 63% $18,119
DePaul University (IL) 65% $18,053
Yeshiva University (NY) 45% $18,034
Colorado State University * 54% $17,975
University of Nevada–Las Vegas * 43% $17,960
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 45% $17,956
George Fox University (OR) 78% $17,903
University of Maryland–College Park * 44% $17,731
Clemson University (SC)* 49% $17,544

Least Debt - National Universities:

School, % of grads with debt, Average amount of debt
Princeton University (NJ) 26% $4,965
California Institute of Technology 34% $5,156
Harvard University (MA) 42% $9,717
Howard University (DC) 88% $10,868
Utah State University * 25% $11,040
University of Massachusetts–Amherst * 55% $11,227
Louisiana Tech University * 62% $11,765
SUNY–Albany * 64% $11,856
University of Hawaii–Manoa * 27% $11,950
University of California–Irvine * 52% $12,074
Clark Atlanta University 70% $12,900
University of Central Florida * 42% $13,053
University of Colorado–Denver and Health Sciences Center * 44% $13,082
Florida State University * 50% $13,290
Yale University (CT) 32% $13,344
University of Georgia * 41% $13,478
Brigham Young University–Provo (UT) 30% $13,714
University of Utah * 39% $13,741
University of California–Davis * 46% $13,835
Tufts University (MA) 36% $14,200
University of California–Santa Cruz * 51% $14,381
Michigan Technological University * 58% $14,453
University of North Carolina–Chapel Hill * 32% $14,487
San Diego State University * 48% $14,700
North Carolina State University–Raleigh * 48% $14,719
University of California–Berkeley * 44% $14,751
College of William and Mary (VA)* 32% $14,770
SUNY–Stony Brook * 59% $14,799
University of Massachusetts–Boston * 84% $14,805
University of California–Riverside * 62% $14,965
New Jersey Institute of Technology * 40% $15,000
University of Florida * 44% $15,045
SUNY–Binghamton * 60% $15,167
University of California–San Diego * 46% $15,170
University of Pittsburgh * 51% $15,331
University of Illinois–Urbana-Champaign * 51% $15,413
University of Massachusetts–Lowell * 58% $15,469
University of Illinois–Chicago * 54% $15,571
Southern Illinois University–Carbondale * 42% $15,748
Stanford University (CA) 46% $15,758
George Mason University (VA)* 48% $15,791
University of California–Santa Barbara * 48% $15,808
Rice University (TX) 41% $15,876
University of Montana * 71% $15,876
Clarkson University (NY) 66% $15,954
University of California–Los Angeles * 46% $15,996
Northern Arizona University * 57% $16,015
University of Akron (OH)* 60% $16,105
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey–New Brunswick (NJ)* 65% $16,283
University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee * 74% $16,683
Old Dominion University (VA)* 80% $16,850
Georgia Institute of Technology * 49% $16,875
University of Virginia * 33% $16,903
Oakland University (MI)* 48% $16,908
Johns Hopkins University (MD) 53% $16,932
University of Texas–Austin * 40% $17,000
Brown University (RI) 50% $17,007
Illinois State University * 55% $17,015
University of Colorado–Boulder * 40% $17,141
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey–Newark (NJ)* 89% $17,143
University of Delaware * 44% $17,200
Columbia University (NY) 44% $17,275
Central Michigan University * 65% $17,365
University of Arizona * 44% $17,392

The debt argument is absolute and utter hogwash.

 

[yojitani]

I think all you high lighted is the name of the school makes getting your foot in the door fresh out of school easier. 5 years down the road who cares.

As for a link to a study from CNN.com that proves my point even more

http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/20/pf/expert/ask_expert/

Sum it up you take people who are of the caliber to get into an Ivy league but turn it down for cost reasons and went to a local school save a fortune and guess what they found. They were making roughly the same as the people out Ivy league. If you are of Ivy League caliber to be accepted it does not matter were you go.

Other places in a carreer building.com article had reports of some company turning down the Ivy leagers because they were finding better candidates at State schools. The people from Ivy Leagues were to proud of themselves and would leave in a heart beat and really did not do any better work than their requites from Texas A&M

It's just not that easy. Ivy Leagues do get your foot in the door, but getting a foot in the door is no small feat. Even if you're 'Ivy League Caliber' but go to a small school, it's going to be a lot of work to get into a fortune 500 company. I know for a fact from people in management positions at a few fortune 500 companies that they make it very difficult for people from outside the Ivy Leagues to get in, even after the arbitrary 5 year threshold you put up. That's not to say it doesn't happen. Ivy League schools open doors at the beginning and through life. I don't agree with this at all, but that is most certainly the way the job market at any level, in any profession, works.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I see this argument every time the issue of colleges comes up and I always see the same guys making the same points.

This argument would hold more water with me if it ever took into account that Ivy and high prestige universities provide very generous financial aid packages, because they have the money to do so.

Here's the debt index for US National Universities:





Least Debt - National Universities:



The debt argument is absolute and utter hogwash.

See that screams even more problems with Ivy league and hurts even more is you have to come from a lot of money to be able to afford to do there. If Mommy and Daddy do not have the money kiss going there good bye.

That 45k a year for Ivy legal compared to 15k for a in State per year really hurts. that is 30k difference per year.

I noticed most debt seem to be public and least debt private yet people who consider private that I know of seem to come from money and can afford it.

 

[63dot]

See that screams even more problems with Ivy league and hurts even more is you have to come from a lot of money to be able to afford to do there. If Mommy and Daddy do not have the money kiss going there good bye.

That 45k a year for Ivy legal compared to 15k for a in State per year really hurts. that is 30k difference per year.

I noticed most debt seem to be public and least debt private yet people who consider private that I know of seem to come from money and can afford it.

You are correct. What the poster who tried to explain with his/her lists of debt from different schools does not take into account the student's wealth or the wealth of their family.

Many a rich family can easily afford the Ivies, thus the small debt load after graduation. It's not the scholarships, even though all schools have them.

Let's put this into reality for a second. Taking the tuition from different schools on a level playing field (let's use middle class students as a control sample), it's easy to see that the higher debts would come from the schools with higher tuitions.

While Ivies do open doors in the beginning and for life, let's take that middle class person who is strapped with an Ivy League debt, with interest, and one can imagine how long it will take to pay off those loans. Ivy or not, medical school and dental school is expensive and many a doctor or dentist (my age, mid 40s) are still paying off the expensive graduate school loan. Doctors have to get extremely expensive insurance, dentists have to pay for extremely expensive equipment, and all things considered, the high tuition of medical/dental school takes a long time to pay off with the high startup costs of being an MD or DDS.

Now take the high price of an Ivy undergraduate education, which is akin to medical or dental school costs, and try and have a non-doctor or non-dentist pay off those loans. Who makes doctor and dentist money nationally? Forbes for 2009 places doctors/dentists holding the 9 highest paying jobs in the nation, with CEO (not necessarily an MBA) at #10.

Lawyers place at #16 on Forbes earning list for that year. So on average, even lawyers and MBAs don't even come close when certain average MD specialists' salaries top over $200K a year and a lawyer under $125K a year. There is no specific MBA salary per se but the CEO at #10 does not come close to the dentist and doctor related salaries.

The Ivy may give you a better start and a faster career trajectory, but it will take time to pay off the school. I can't tell you how many working people I have met from expensive schools (Ivy or just well connected/thought of) who complain about the big expense that is paying off an expensive education.

A person doesn't live forever and neither does their productive work life. I suspect there are a lot of people who never make up the difference having gone to an Ivy, especially if it's from a major that is not in high demand in the workplace. I would place my bets for an electrical engineer from SUNY paying off their brownstone in Long Island before the American History graduate from Yale in the same neighborhood (assuming both students came from the same level of income growing up).

I look at the two schools I went to that compose the first four years of college and while I believe one trains their students well and they exceed on their own merits (Cal Poly), the other school (an expensive, very Republican private one on the national university list) exceeds due to a lot of wealthy students who are very keen on networking and doing business with their own alumni.

Whether making it via hard work or making it mastering the networks of the very rich, both are arts that take a long time to learn and a lifetime to master. In the pursuit of wealth and influence, I still respect the person from a school (more) without a ton of wealth or connections, but who achieves success based on their work, not who they know.

 

[neal.young]

Just graduated from high school, going to UC Irvine next year as an econ major and possibly a CS minor.

 

[Signal-11]

Some of you guys are completely missing the point and you speak out of a position of ignorance.

How many of you have actually seen, with your own two eyes, a financial aid package from a need blind, 100% financial need institution?

The majority of students in most of these institutions are on financial aid. Princeton has a $110 million dollar annual financial aid budget for 5000 undergrads, roughly 2000 of whom whose parents parents can pay in full. The other 60% are the recipients of that $110m. Do the math. Either your parents have enough money to foot the entire bill OR Princeton foots the bill for you to go to Princeton, including stipending you for your books and living. There are very few in-between.

This $140-200k of debt that some of you are discussing is an entirely fictional number with little to no basis in reality.

BTW, these numbers come from CDS, which doesn't count those with no debt in the debt load percentage, so your point is in fact, not valid.

Every single comment I see about how expensive the Ivys and the schools in that class are always come from people who have no direct experience and little knowledge of how financial aid works at wealthy, well-endowed elite schools.

 

[rhsgolfer33]

It's just not that easy. Ivy Leagues do get your foot in the door, but getting a foot in the door is no small feat. Even if you're 'Ivy League Caliber' but go to a small school, it's going to be a lot of work to get into a fortune 500 company. I know for a fact from people in management positions at a few fortune 500 companies that they make it very difficult for people from outside the Ivy Leagues to get in, even after the arbitrary 5 year threshold you put up. That's not to say it doesn't happen. Ivy League schools open doors at the beginning and through life. I don't agree with this at all, but that is most certainly the way the job market at any level, in any profession, works.

Its really not that hard to get into a Fortune 500 company, unless you're talking upper level management at which point you'll likely need an MBA from a top school, not a bachelors degree. We're talking about 500 companies that employ about 15% of the US labor force, getting your foot in the door at many of the companies really isn't that difficult.

If you're shooting for Goldman Sachs or Berkshire Hathaway, yeah, you'll have a tougher time, but it isn't that tough to get fairly good positions at the likes of Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Procter and Gamble, Baxter, H&R Block, etc. Hell, more than a few people from my school and friends from other small/not so well known schools in my area haven't had problems getting the same entry level positions a top school grad would get at these companies. Not to mention many I know moving from audit positions at Big Four accounting firms into fairly plush industry rolls at some of these companies.

 

[DARKJ3DI]

University of Otago in Dunedin in the South Island of New Zealand.

 

[63dot]

Some of you guys are completely missing the point and you speak out of a position of ignorance.

How many of you have actually seen, with your own two eyes, a financial aid package from a need blind, 100% financial need institution?

The majority of students in most of these institutions are on financial aid. Princeton has a $110 million dollar annual financial aid budget for 5000 undergrads, roughly 2000 of whom whose parents parents can pay in full. The other 60% are the recipients of that $110m. Do the math. Either your parents have enough money to foot the entire bill OR Princeton foots the bill for you to go to Princeton, including stipending you for your books and living. There are very few in-between.

This $140-200k of debt that some of you are discussing is an entirely fictional number with little to no basis in reality.

BTW, these numbers come from CDS, which doesn't count those with no debt in the debt load percentage, so your point is in fact, not valid.

Every single comment I see about how expensive the Ivys and the schools in that class are always come from people who have no direct experience and little knowledge of how financial aid works at wealthy, well-endowed elite schools.

You are talking about needs based? Are you a minority like me? Otherwise you are talking out of your "you know what". . The arguments for or against the Ivies are black and white. Let's see something in between.

I read your thread on Hurt Locker. While I can't comment on going to one of eight elite schools in the USA, I can comment about explosives in warfare. I have been to a poor country where bombing out buildings was the main form of warfare. I have been in such a building. I lost a cohort to that violence. Hurt Locker was exactly what it's like and you thought it was "meh"? I assume you have spent too much time in your ivory tower or in a very sheltered situation. If I am wrong correct me. Also, I don't wish anybody to experience the violence of war. It won't make anybody a better person. You brought up the point did I see the papers for an Ivy grant as it pertains to experience? No. But I have seen grant papers and competed for a few, and got one finally. You can comment on a war but you will have someone call you on it, unless you have been to one, then someone will call you on that. But I am going to take a stab at the grant thing and correct me, but I think I know something about that (although I admit not as much as you as I assume the Ivy gave you some scholarship monies of which I commend you).

I got a full ride to law school, and I am also a minority. I will tell you, grants do happen, yes, but they are extremely rare. Without going into too much detail, the grant was open to 300,000 people and I got lucky. One person per county (or counties) gets this law school or MBA grant. I am disabled and I still had to jump through a billion hoops to get a scholarship to a small, but well endowed law school. For what it's worth, I would say about a quarter of the class already made more money than most lawyers make, and some were from very prominent, rich families to start with. Law school is not something I tend to see working class kids in. Generally, the more you are born with, the more likely you are to go to grad school. You can be very, very smart, but unless you are extremely gifted, you are out of luck if you don't at least have a considerable amount of money you are willing to go into debt for.

Unless my dentist, a white male, is a liar, and my dentist before him (white male also) didn't tell me the truth, then heck, maybe dental school was cheap. There is no myth to crushing debt from either medical/dental school or from undergraduate Ivies.

Maybe the debt they talk about is false?

We can read all the studies we want and it won't be hard to find a major publication that supports just what you say. The Columbia University study on this post showed aspects of both an Ivy paying for itself and an Ivy being a (financial) liability. For some it pays off, but for most it doesn't. That's the thrust of the whole article.

If you read my posts, I am in the middle saying that Ivies can help, but for many (at least virtually all the ones I know about), there was considerable debt which may not be paid off justifying the extra cost.

That being said, if somebody wants to embark on an Ivy education in a major that is unlikely to pay later on, that's OK by me. I applaud anybody who has the gumption it takes to go through college, especially one that is as hard to get in as an Ivy or equivalent like Stanford or MIT or Cal Tech or Chicago, and go through what has to be at least four very hard years of school. I was lucky enough to do just one semester as a foreign student at the University of London and it was great, and it was $10,000 dollars back in the mid-1980s. It was worth it but I could not have finished the remaining 2 years of college there. No way.

A good friend of mine, a scholarship full ride but minority like me, did Amherst and even though it was free, he busted his butt for four very hard years. The rest of his friends though ended up with crushing debt because they didn't qualify because they were middle class (lower/mid/upper). His friends from his alma mater are white as most people in America are and very likely most people on this thread.

Also, maybe my buddy at Stanford Hopkins Marine is lying to me how much debt he incurred as a grad student studying marine biology. Ok, maybe I am out of context since Stanford is not an Ivy, but to you probably some western community college that teaches basketweaving.

He's married to a minority, but at the same time he saw how being white, even with his great undergrad scores, didn't help him 20 years ago for tuition at Stanford. He had the need, but he didn't fit the narrow criteria. So he got into huge debt. When he finally became a marine biologist, it didn't pay so he had to work in lucrative field to pay off his graduate degrees. How is this the American dream?

High end private schools have tuition which has outpaced the earnings of most Americans, and now even when real estate is down and the economy is down, tuition is even more of a slap in the face at its current rates.

 

[James L.]

Some of you guys are completely missing the point and you speak out of a position of ignorance.

How many of you have actually seen, with your own two eyes, a financial aid package from a need blind, 100% financial need institution?

The majority of students in most of these institutions are on financial aid. Princeton has a $110 million dollar annual financial aid budget for 5000 undergrads, roughly 2000 of whom whose parents parents can pay in full. The other 60% are the recipients of that $110m. Do the math. Either your parents have enough money to foot the entire bill OR Princeton foots the bill for you to go to Princeton, including stipending you for your books and living. There are very few in-between.

This $140-200k of debt that some of you are discussing is an entirely fictional number with little to no basis in reality.

BTW, these numbers come from CDS, which doesn't count those with no debt in the debt load percentage, so your point is in fact, not valid.

Every single comment I see about how expensive the Ivys and the schools in that class are always come from people who have no direct experience and little knowledge of how financial aid works at wealthy, well-endowed elite schools.

This is the truth.

I attend one of these schools, and I've found that the school is far more interested in putting together the best possible student body than to bill its undergrads. High quality students (irrespective of their financial circumstances) are worth much more to the school's reputation and future prospects than tuition fees. This helps to explain the relatively recent adoption of need blind admissions and financial aid meeting 100% of demonstrated need policies in several schools.

 

[63dot]

I know I am off topic and starting/continuing on about something else

This is the truth.

I attend one of these schools, and I've found that the school is far more interested in putting together the best possible student body than to bill its undergrads. High quality students (irrespective of their financial circumstances) are worth much more to the school's reputation and future prospects than tuition fees. This helps to explain the relatively recent adoption of need blind admissions and financial aid meeting 100% of demonstrated need policies in several schools.

Truth for you maybe. But truth overall? I don't think so.

I am glad that those schools, or even if one of them (yours), has this. And before I rant, congrats on landing a great grant and/or scholarship if you did that.

It wasn't the case for baby-boomers like me. Some of us are still paying off debt from private colleges. I don't knock private colleges where I did meet a lot of well off people who taught me lessons about money, and hanging onto it, which I never heard in my first two years of college at a public college. For that, the expensive tuition I endured in the last two years of college was worth it. The connections in the school opened doors big time. Classes are typically small in expensive colleges so it increases your ability to meet and network with some very wealthy students and their families. But it didn't make that private college any cheaper!

As for connections, it was also having great guest speakers that only a rich, private school can get on a dime. If we have a seminar on the UN, much of the UN shows up as paid for by the school, here on the west coast. If we are talking about a fortune 500 CEO, that said CEO who is an alum, or a good friend like hs graduate (yet multi-billionaire) Larry Ellison will come in and talk or revamp our entire computer lab. Yes, this is a part of why people go to expensive, well connected schools. But does it pay off or offset the high tuition? I say no most of the time. Fifteen years ago, each three unit class was $1400 dollars in the MBA program, and now it's $2200 dollars. I love the school on many levels but students hate the tuition, even the rich ones.

But in no way is it possible for a recent adoption you talk about in blind admissions as stated above to erase the considerable debt many thousands of prior students of expensive private colleges incurred in the decades before.

I say, good for need blind admissions, and heck, it's about time.

A school's intentions can be honorable but could it be fulfilled?:

On ABC news radio, KGO 810, Stanford's dean talked about it and while the Governor (California's current Governor hated by many educators) said he would help public and private colleges be able to be need blind. The Stanford dean basically said it's political posturing and there is no such thing as need blind admissions in California as it was envisioned.

I take it your state is better off and if that's the case, then we should follow your lead. While private schools don't get a lot of funds from a state, what funds they do get are extremely welcome, especially in California. Stanford, just as an organization, employs a lot of people who pay big taxes to Sacramento. Palo Alto is largely built, or was, around the school.

So the Stanford dean goes on to talk about what the press says, and what some GOP sunny day allies say about Stanford being need blind, while the reality is that there is no measurable change. The liberals at Stanford, and they are the majority, are fuming.

We can talk all day about equality, and being a minority I pay attention, but high end private colleges are still largely white.

If the top eight Ivies were based just on grades and scores according to Stanford's dean, there are enough Chinese Americans alone (a subset of Asian Americans which also include Indians, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc.) to fill up all eight Ivies' graduate schools looking at the MCAT, GRE, GMAT, and LSAT scores alone in conjunction with undergraduate GPAs.

It's not an intelligence thing with Asians (as they are like anybody else) but a cultural thing where a non-educated Asian can and will work his way to a 180 on the LSAT like the man who sat next to me in law school. With that score, you are in anywhere, especially if you came out of hs, worked many years, and then ace the very hard LSAT. And to make sure it wasn't a lark, being the studious Asian he is, he got 180 six times on the LSAT which has to be some record somewhere. This would lead to a race war, and hate crimes against Asians, and I do not want to see any more racism against Asians since my parents and grandparents went to an interment camp in WWII. Funny movies like Harold and Kumar only fuel the hatred other races, especially other minorities, have towards Asians. Asians worship education and are not smarter than anybody else.

There has to be a way to let all races get into these schools, and have scholarships which help under-represented minorities and poor white people. Otherwise, the Ivies will have a majority of people who are white, or a few token rich Asians, both of who come from above average income families. I call this a caste system.

If America does not let its under-represented students (under-represented minorities and poor whites) have a chance, then the middle class as we know it will shrink.

 

[XnavxeMiyyep]

big list of most and least debts by college

Hmm... I'm a rising senior at WPI (Worcester Polytechnic Institute). I'm one of the lucky ones in terms of financial aid though, I'll probably only have $16 - $20k to pay off, most of which has no interest.

However, we have one of the highest ROIs according to
http://www.payscale.com/education/average-cost-for-college-ROI.

1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) Private $189,300 $1,688,000 12.6%
2 California Institute of Technology (CalTech) Private $181,100 $1,644,000 12.6%
3 Harvard University Private $189,600 $1,631,000 12.5%
4 Harvey Mudd College Private $187,700 $1,627,000 12.5%
5 Dartmouth College Private $188,400 $1,587,000 12.4%
6 Stanford University Private $191,800 $1,565,000 12.3%
7 Princeton University Private $187,700 $1,517,000 12.3%
8 Yale University Private $194,200 $1,392,000 11.9%
9 University of Notre Dame Private $181,900 $1,384,000 12.1%
10 University of Pennsylvania Private $191,300 $1,361,000 11.8%
11 Duke University Private $187,600 $1,319,000 11.8%
12 Lehigh University Private $180,400 $1,308,000 11.9%
13 Union College, New York Private $186,500 $1,262,000 11.7%
14 Amherst College Private $188,200 $1,259,000 11.6%
15 Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) Private $184,900 $1,224,000 11.6%

I study Computer Science, so college is the de facto option for me. I've learned quite a lot in my three years here.

 

[63dot]

Hmm... I'm a rising senior at WPI (Worcester Polytechnic Institute). I'm one of the lucky ones in terms of financial aid though, I'll probably only have $16 - $20k to pay off, most of which has no interest.

However, we have one of the highest ROIs according to
http://www.payscale.com/education/average-cost-for-college-ROI.



I study Computer Science, so college is the de facto option for me. I've learned quite a lot in my three years here.

I think, assuming the college student is middle class or lower like me, return on investment is key. One school I got accepted to, NYU for graduate school, is not cheap but they have a great return on investment. They are not Harvard but they do have top 20 law and MBA programs among others which isn't too shabby.

I could have gone to a relatively unknown yet equally expensive school, but it wouldn't make sense. There are lowly ranked, expensive colleges for rich kids who don't want to study too hard. There are a lot of them in California.

But for many of the very rich and rich who send their kids to college, it doesn't matter where they go or if they go. Unless something very catastrophic happens and that rich kid's family puts all their eggs in one source for investment (which is unlikely), their kid will do OK with recession or a boom.

There are the ultra snobs here who may think NYU is some knock-off brand and only a Cornell or Columbia will do for New York. But I say them them, look at the rankings and return on investment. If a person thinks only 8 Ivy schools in the US are worthy, and there are yuppie parents who think that way everywhere, then it's their problem. I could live with the WPI above, NYU, MIT, Cal Tech, or Amhurst even though they are not the 8 Ivies.