White iPhone 4 Manufacturing Delay, Some Apple Pre-Orders Being Canceled

[grmatt]

There are people on the Apple discussion forums that only had one order in and it was cancelled.

Yup. I'm one of them. It sucks.

 

[pcmike]

How can you say you have a "signed" contract when no money has changed hands? AT&T (and you) can do whatever they want until they charge (not preauthorize) your credit card; he'll I'm sure they have a million in one ways out even after that point as long as they refund your money.

Actually, if you go look at all these posts, a lot of people are making those types of comments to one another, not just me. But you didn't even address my question - you changed the subject and made it seem like you answered the question when the real issue is still unresolved. I completely agree with your above hypothetical. But that's not what happened in these cases. For one, AT&T has completed substantial performance once all the terms are agreed upon, the contract is signed and submitted and one's payment is accepted. At that point, AT&T has made an agreement to furnish a good at a certain time. There's a valid contract at that point, no question. Why would it make sense for me to be held to my end of the contract for the 9 days between order and shipment but not AT&T? There's lots of terms in the contract that I'm sure modify this agreement, but like I mentioned several times, this is talking about legal principles, not the actual contract itself in this situation. That's why I don't even factor in the 30-day trial periods and things like that. I'm sure there's an exculpatory clause somewhere that protects AT&T and Apple and allows for termination of the contract when there's a supply issue or whatever. It's a binding contract at that point. Offer, acceptance, and consideration. If it wasn't, then anyone should be able to place an order for something, sign the contract, and then back out 5 minutes before shipment. What if I signed a contract to purchase $300 worth of bricks from a contractor? They order the bricks for me but it takes a couple weeks to get them from their supplier. Five minutes before the bricks arrive, I decide I don't want them anymore. Based on your logic, I can just walk away and the contractor is stuck with $300 worth of bricks. There's no way I could argue that I didn't have a binding contract. That's how businesses work together - they all order stuff from each other. It makes absolutely no sense for the actual product to have to be physically delivered before the contract is binding.

Even in my hypothetical, if for some reason there wasn't a binding contract, there's still a very good possibility of obtaining some type of compensation due to obvious reliance. There's definitely a contract, but even if there wasn't the bases are still covered that way.


Like I said, this is about legal principles, NOT the actual contract itself. I'm sick of companies like AT&T just screwing over their consumers without any consequences. They can't even put your last name in their cancellation notifications. It's irresponsible and just plain unprofessional. But what can we do? Nothing except whine and complain because we all want that damn phone (myself included).

Now the fact that the ship dates and things like that might be pushed back probably won't be considered a material breach because it's surely only going to be considered a minor breach. But what about the people who relied on their orders? I bet a lot of people would have just tried to reserve in store instead. I knew I was being lied to by Best Buy when they said I'm "guaranteed" a phone but I had to go through them because I couldn't use the system and I have a gift card for them. My expectations were low so I'm not really upset at all. But it's not about me as much as it is about all the loyal Apple customers that get crapped on by the companies who can't even accept a little bit of responsibility for canceling orders without any reason. Some were legitimate, yeah, but it sounds like many weren't.

 

[AttilaTheHun]

For such a large company Apple sure does seem like a bunch of amateurs every time they launch something new. You'd think by now they'd have figured it out.

YOU ARE RIGHT if I was mr JOBES

I will pull out the deal with at&t, sell the iphone my self by Apple store, best buy and so on by giving them fisical product.
sell price is fixed. let at&t or any other careir give the customer credit upon contruct.

 

[Swift]

Whew! Just checked mine and it still shows "Prepared for Shipment"

I got the "shipping" notification last night. This after some strange goings-on with my debit card (I don't use credit cards. I keep enough cash to buy things I need, and credit is for emergencies only) which had me phoning Apple and the bank when my online account went odd. Three $1 withdrawals apart from the main one. Then the $1 items disappeared. Then the big charge disappeared. They held my hand all the way. Then it shipped. Checked the bank. Money not gone yet.

It must not be easy, shipping and charging 600,000 phones in a few days.

 

[Primejimbo]

YOU ARE RIGHT if I was mr JOBES

I will pull out the deal with at&t, sell the iphone my self by Apple store, best buy and so on by giving them fisical product.
sell price is fixed. let at&t or any other careir give the customer credit upon contruct.

Yea, because you know how to run Apple better
Again read post #401
"Name another company who has launches any product like this and see if it goes better."

It must not be easy, shipping and charging 600,000 phones in a few days.

No kidding (again what other company has a launch likes this?), I feel sorry for the FedEx people Thursday.

 

[ChrisMurrayOU]

How can you say you have a "signed" contract when no money has changed hands? AT&T (and you) can do whatever they want until they charge (not preauthorize) your credit card; he'll I'm sure they have a million in one ways out even after that point as long as they refund your money.

You're the one that claimed to be a lawyer so you should know that money doesn't need to change hands to have a valid contract. You're the guy that got called out by more than just me for constantly making dumb statements about other people so I don't even know why I'm responding to you...again. The exchange of payment is merely a term within the contract. It's a material term in virtually every instance, but payment can be made at any time the parties specify. If AT&T want to wait until the phone ships to accept payment, that's fine. Once you sign that contract and agree to be locked in to 2 years worth of payments, it's a done deal. Why did you put "signed" like that as if it's not a valid signature just because it's done online or something? Electronic signatures for all types of contracts are widely used and recognized by the courts.

 

[ChrisMurrayOU]

How can you say you have a "signed" contract when no money has changed hands? AT&T (and you) can do whatever they want until they charge (not preauthorize) your credit card; he'll I'm sure they have a million in one ways out even after that point as long as they refund your money.

And yeah, there are plenty of terms that exculpate both you and AT&T. But that doesn't change the fact that it was a legally binding contract to provide something! You clearly didn't even read the whole comment. I'm not saying AT&T or Apple did anything illegal! AGAIN, I'm totally aware of the exculpatory clauses. The frustration is about the companies involved showing little to no respect for some rightfully angry consumers thus far.

 

[cmaier]

You're just wrong. Apple never manifested any intent to make an offer or to accept your order, and given the terms you agreed to it would be unreasonable to interpret apple's actions asna manifestation of intent. You are misapplying 3L logic and 16th century law to a situation where the law is clear.

And, yes, you can cancel your order before shipment. Because you can revoke an offer before acceptance. Before the shipping process starts (manifesting acceptance by apple) you can cancel your order (your offer).

If filling out web form was you accepting apple's offer, you couldn't cancel because a contract has been formed.

Actually, if you go look at all these posts, a lot of people are making those types of comments to one another, not just me. But you didn't even address my question - you changed the subject and made it seem like you answered the question when the real issue is still unresolved. I completely agree with your above hypothetical. But that's not what happened in these cases. For one, AT&T has completed substantial performance once all the terms are agreed upon, the contract is signed and submitted and one's payment is accepted. At that point, AT&T has made an agreement to furnish a good at a certain time. There's a valid contract at that point, no question. Why would it make sense for me to be held to my end of the contract for the 9 days between order and shipment but not AT&T? There's lots of terms in the contract that I'm sure modify this agreement, but like I mentioned several times, this is talking about legal principles, not the actual contract itself in this situation. That's why I don't even factor in the 30-day trial periods and things like that. I'm sure there's an exculpatory clause somewhere that protects AT&T and Apple and allows for termination of the contract when there's a supply issue or whatever. It's a binding contract at that point. Offer, acceptance, and consideration. If it wasn't, then anyone should be able to place an order for something, sign the contract, and then back out 5 minutes before shipment. What if I signed a contract to purchase $300 worth of bricks from a contractor? They order the bricks for me but it takes a couple weeks to get them from their supplier. Five minutes before the bricks arrive, I decide I don't want them anymore. Based on your logic, I can just walk away and the contractor is stuck with $300 worth of bricks. There's no way I could argue that I didn't have a binding contract. That's how businesses work together - they all order stuff from each other. It makes absolutely no sense for the actual product to have to be physically delivered before the contract is binding.

Even in my hypothetical, if for some reason there wasn't a binding contract, there's still a very good possibility of obtaining some type of compensation due to obvious reliance. There's definitely a contract, but even if there wasn't the bases are still covered that way.


Like I said, this is about legal principles, NOT the actual contract itself. I'm sick of companies like AT&T just screwing over their consumers without any consequences. They can't even put your last name in their cancellation notifications. It's irresponsible and just plain unprofessional. But what can we do? Nothing except whine and complain because we all want that damn phone (myself included).

Now the fact that the ship dates and things like that might be pushed back probably won't be considered a material breach because it's surely only going to be considered a minor breach. But what about the people who relied on their orders? I bet a lot of people would have just tried to reserve in store instead. I knew I was being lied to by Best Buy when they said I'm "guaranteed" a phone but I had to go through them because I couldn't use the system and I have a gift card for them. My expectations were low so I'm not really upset at all. But it's not about me as much as it is about all the loyal Apple customers that get crapped on by the companies who can't even accept a little bit of responsibility for canceling orders without any reason. Some were legitimate, yeah, but it sounds like many weren't.

 

[helpinghand]

Answer: Why some orders are being cancelled

Here is the story:

If you used a debt Visa/Mastercard on the ATT site (or maybe others) instead of a "regular" credit card, your order has/will be cancelled.

ATT required standard credit cards if you pre-ordered in the store, but made absolutely no reference to this requirement on their website.

I think this sucks and needs to be brought up to:

Randall Stephenson, AT&T CEO
rs2982@att.com (direct)
randall.stephenson@att.com
phone: 210-351-5401 (direct to his secretary)

 

[Roofy.]

how do I check my order status? I ordered mine June 17th and it says it ships by July 14th. Do I even need to worry since I already have to wait a month anyway?

Also, I ordered th black 16G thru apple

 

[ChrisMurrayOU]

You're just wrong. Apple never manifested any intent to make an offer or to accept your order, and given the terms you agreed to it would be unreasonable to interpret apple's actions asna manifestation of intent. You are misapplying 3L logic and 16th century law to a situation where the law is clear.

And, yes, you can cancel your order before shipment. Because you can revoke an offer before acceptance. Before the shipping process starts (manifesting acceptance by apple) you can cancel your order (your offer).

If filling out web form was you accepting apple's offer, you couldn't cancel because a contract has been formed.

EXACTLY! People signed contracts with AT&T, had their status changed from "preparing for shipment" to "cancelled" with no explanation!

And still, after you sign the contract on the 15th, AT&T agrees and clearly states that a new contract has been formed by changing your upgrade eligibility and saying that your contract ends in June 2012, how is that not a valid contract?! How is that not acceptance? That all happens BEFORE the order is shipped! What else does AT&T and Apple need to do before it's a valid acceptance? And at that point, absent exculpatory clauses like the 30 day trial period, how am I not legally bound to the contract?

Please, please help me on this because we keep going back and forth without ever answering that question.

 

[pcmike]

Dumb statements? Everything I laid out there about bedifferent's situation was gleamed right from his own posts. I didn't misconstrue a single part of his situation. I passed judgement on him for having the audacity to try and hold Apple accountable for AT&T's mistake and that's all I did.

You're right, I'm not a lawyer, I'm a pharmacist.... But I talked with a friend of mine who is in your same situation (just graduated and sitting for the bar in less than a month) and even he is of the opinion that there really isn't a "signed" contract.

You're the one that claimed to be a lawyer so you should know that money doesn't need to change hands to have a valid contract. You're the guy that got called out by more than just me for constantly making dumb statements about other people so I don't even know why I'm responding to you...again. The exchange of payment is merely a term within the contract. It's a material term in virtually every instance, but payment can be made at any time the parties specify. If AT&T want to wait until the phone ships to accept payment, that's fine. Once you sign that contract and agree to be locked in to 2 years worth of payments, it's a done deal. Why did you put "signed" like that as if it's not a valid signature just because it's done online or something? Electronic signatures for all types of contracts are widely used and recognized by the courts.

 

[roocka]

I'm curious

Are the only orders being cancelled, the ones closest to being shipped? Has At&t or Apple cancelled any orders shipping later? Another thing I'm wondering is whether this means that more phones will be available to ship earlier since many are being cancelled?

If mine were originally to ship by July 2nd but now more are available due to many orders being cancelled, will my order be moved up and ship sooner?

Here's to hope...

 

[cmaier]

Who's had their order cancelled after "prepared for shipment?". All I saw was people cancelled after receiving a shipping date, but I didn't see anyone answer yes to the question that was asked about cancellation after a status of "prepared for shipment."

EXACTLY! People signed contracts with AT&T, had their status changed from "preparing for shipment" to "cancelled" with no explanation!

And still, after you sign the contract on the 15th, AT&T agrees and clearly states that a new contract has been formed by changing your upgrade eligibility and saying that your contract ends in June 2012, how is that not a valid contract?! How is that not acceptance? That all happens BEFORE the order is shipped! What else does AT&T and Apple need to do before it's a valid acceptance? And at that point, absent exculpatory clauses like the 30 day trial period, how am I not legally bound to the contract?

Please, please help me on this because we keep going back and forth without ever answering that question.

 

[ChrisMurrayOU]

Who's had their order cancelled after "prepared for shipment?". All I saw was people cancelled after receiving a shipping date, but I didn't see anyone answer yes to the question that was asked about cancellation after a status of "prepared for shipment."

There's over 400 comments here. There's more than one person that's happened to, so check over the pages. But don't get hung up on that anyway. Answer my question. I copied and pasted it below. If I'm just misapplying 3L logic and law from 500 years ago, you should have a quick and simple answer for me about this:

"And still, after you sign the contract on the 15th, AT&T agrees and clearly states that a new contract has been formed by changing your upgrade eligibility and saying that your contract ends in June 2012, how is that not a valid contract?! How is that not acceptance? That all happens BEFORE the order is shipped! What else does AT&T and Apple need to do before it's a valid acceptance? And at that point, absent exculpatory clauses like the 30 day trial period, how am I not legally bound to the contract? "

 

[mspman]

Here is the story:

If you used a debt Visa/Mastercard on the ATT site (or maybe others) instead of a "regular" credit card, your order has/will be cancelled.

ATT required standard credit cards if you pre-ordered in the store, but made absolutely no reference to this requirement on their website.

I think this sucks and needs to be brought up to:

Randall Stephenson, AT&T CEO
rs2982@att.com (direct)
randall.stephenson@att.com
phone: 210-351-5401 (direct to his secretary)

How do you know this? Are you absolutely sure?

If this is true, this is rather inflammatory information for AT&T.

 

[chris.robison]

Non Essential? Apple products are the most important thing in my (and most others heres) life. I'm devastated, I'm going to be stuck with my 3GS for a few more weeks. I don't know how I can carry on. Oh My God, I've been relegated to having to skate where the puck is!!

It's going to be hard to get through these next few weeks but I know I'll have the support of all of you here to help me through the tough times. We can maybe form a support group. Do you think we all ought to write Steve letters and let him know we don't blame this on him and that we all still love him?

Think Positive. Soon enough we'll all be holding our elegant and delicious looking iPhone 4 and will be once again skating to where the puck is going to be!!!

People like you make me not want to admit I'm an Apple fan. Its an MFing phone. You'll be fine.

 

[CubusX]

Hahaha

You didn't expect all these ordering issues, no white iPhones, and canceling orders?

The funny thing is normally AT&T is the one that screws this all up, now Apple is doing it as well, way too funny.

I can't wait to read all the posts on how many pissed off people are trying to activate their phones (in stores and online) without any success.

I really hope the entire server crashes and those nice little iPhones are nothing more than paper weights for a few hours.

 

[cmaier]

There's over 400 comments here. There's more than one person that's happened to, so check over the pages. But don't get hung up on that anyway. Answer my question. I copied and pasted it below. If I'm just misapplying 3L logic and law from 500 years ago, you should have a quick and simple answer for me about this:

"And still, after you sign the contract on the 15th, AT&T agrees and clearly states that a new contract has been formed by changing your upgrade eligibility and saying that your contract ends in June 2012, how is that not a valid contract?! How is that not acceptance? That all happens BEFORE the order is shipped! What else does AT&T and Apple need to do before it's a valid acceptance? And at that point, absent exculpatory clauses like the 30 day trial period, how am I not legally bound to the contract? "

Changing your eligibility date is no more a manifestation of being bound (after all, it is a detriment to you, not to them - it isn't "performance") than sending you a confirmation email. A new two year contract hasn't been started. All that happened is you have offered to give up the ability to buy a subsidized phone for awhile. Further, this happens automatically without anyone at apple or AT&T intervening - the reason is to prevent you from ordering more subsidized phones (making more offers) prior to att accepting our first offer.

Again, I haven't seen anyone state in this thread that they were cancelled after prepared for shipment. I've seen dozens of messages stating they were cancelled before that point.

 

[DotCom2]

You didn't expect all these ordering issues, no white iPhones, and canceling orders?

The funny thing is normally AT&T is the one that screws this all up, now Apple is doing it as well, way too funny.

I can't wait to read all the posts on how many pissed off people are trying to activate their phones (in stores and online) without any success.

I really hope the entire server crashes and those nice little iPhones are nothing more than paper weights for a few hours.

Nice person!

 

[Dj BW]

Here is the story:

If you used a debt Visa/Mastercard on the ATT site (or maybe others) instead of a "regular" credit card, your order has/will be cancelled.

ATT required standard credit cards if you pre-ordered in the store, but made absolutely no reference to this requirement on their website.

I think this sucks and needs to be brought up to:

Randall Stephenson, AT&T CEO
rs2982@att.com (direct)
randall.stephenson@att.com
phone: 210-351-5401 (direct to his secretary)

wrong! I paid on apples site via debit card and my order just changed today to "preparred for shipment" and I have a July 2nd ship date too.

 

[ChrisMurrayOU]

Changing your eligibility date is no more a manifestation of being bound (after all, it is a detriment to you, not to them - it isn't "performance") than sending you a confirmation email. A new two year contract hasn't been started. All that happened is you have offered to give up the ability to buy a subsidized phone for awhile. Further, this happens automatically without anyone at apple or AT&T intervening - the reason is to prevent you from ordering more subsidized phones (making more offers) prior to att accepting our first offer.

Again, I haven't seen anyone state in this thread that they were cancelled after prepared for shipment. I've seen dozens of messages stating they were cancelled before that point.

Sorry, you're just plain wrong. I don't understand how you can just ignore basic principles of contract formation. You're saying that even after:

1) I sign a formal written contract presented by AT&T;
2) AT&T checks my account and authorizes payment;
3) Tells me via online account management that:
a. My new contract runs until June 2012
b. My upgrade eligibility is 18 months from now; AND
4) Provides confirmation of new contract and order

After all this, I'm free to just say, "nah, I'm cool" and AT&T can do the same because they never accepted my offer to purchase the phone? Like I mentioned earlier, absent exculpatory clauses like the 30-day trial period, this absolutely has to be a valid contract.

But I'm dropping it there. I'm done with this debate. Believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[n00basaur]

wrong! I paid on apples site via debit card and my order just changed today to "preparred for shipment" and I have a July 2nd ship date too.

He's talking about ATT though.

 

[CubusX]

As a whole.

Nice person!

I'm looking at it from the stand point of a user that wants an iPhone but not on AT&T's network.

The more foolish AT&T and Apple look is for the better. Maybe one step closer to the end of the exclusive contact.

I truly think it sucks for you guys who lost your orders but I am laughing my ass off that Apple screwed up this badly. There is no way in hell Apple did not know the sales would have exploded like this. The blame is squarely on Apple, then when the iPhone can't be used as a phone, thats squarely on AT&T's hands.

 

[cmaier]

Good luck on the bar, and on your inevitable attempt to get a refund from bar/bri.

Sorry, you're just plain wrong. I don't understand how you can just ignore basic principles of contract formation. You're saying that even after:

1) I sign a formal written contract presented by AT&T;
2) AT&T checks my account and authorizes payment;
3) Tells me via online account management that:
a. My new contract runs until June 2012
b. My upgrade eligibility is 18 months from now; AND
4) Provides confirmation of new contract and order

After all this, I'm free to just say, "nah, I'm cool" and AT&T can do the same because they never accepted my offer to purchase the phone? Like I mentioned earlier, absent exculpatory clauses like the 30-day trial period, this absolutely has to be a valid contract.

But I'm dropping it there. I'm done with this debate. Believe whatever you want to believe.