Why are MBPs so over-priced?

[groove-agent]

I think the Windows experience has greatly improved, particularly when you consider the value of the all-in-one Windows Surface and Windows 10. It really shows Microsoft has their "A-game" on, unlike Apple IMO who seem to be resting on their laurels.

To say you will never go back to Windows 10 ever sounds closed-minded. One can't predict the future and I like the focus and direction of Microsoft right now (and I was a huge critic).

It's fine if something is expensive, and I"ll pay $4000 for an Apple computer, but it has to be justified. I just can't justify the new MBPs. Remember there is a difference between pricey and overpriced.

Microsoft equivalents are similarly priced, but they're better value IMO, although right now I still prefer MacOS.

I transitioned from being a long term Windows user to using MacOS, and I can pretty much guarantee that I won't be going back to using a Windows machine. Ever.

I agree that Apple's hardware is overpriced, but just take a look at the Microsoft equivalents as they're similarly priced. Plus, you're paying for Apple's top notch customer service.

Having been a Windows user for over a decade, it's utterly awful compared to MacOS and therefore worth the money for me.

[doublepost=1495859214][/doublepost]

Then the current model is actually cheaper, due to inflation.

We are not in a recession anymore. And the UK price spike speaks for itself, due to the significant drop in the pound.

Not really because that was a maxed out 17", not a 15".

 

[richinaus]

I think the Windows experience has greatly improved, particularly when you consider the value of the all-in-one Windows Surface and Windows 10. It really shows Microsoft has their "A-game" on, unlike Apple IMO who seem to be resting on their laurels.

To say you will never go back to Windows 10 ever sounds closed-minded. One can't predict the future and I like the focus and direction of Microsoft right now (and I was a huge critic).

It's fine if something is expensive, and I"ll pay $4000 for an Apple computer, but it has to be justified. I just can't justify the new MBPs. Remember there is a difference between pricey and overpriced.

Microsoft equivalents are similarly priced, but they're better value IMO, although right now I still prefer MacOS.


[doublepost=1495859214][/doublepost]

Not really because that was a maxed out 17", not a 15".

Seriously?

I have no issues with Windows 10, but if you look at the Surface line in comparison to Apple, really they are not a better deal or on their 'A game' as you suggest.

The surface studio is $2000 more than an iMac here, and has a spinning HD, mobile CPU, and old GPU. I am not entirely sure why you think it is so much better than an imac, except you can draw on the screen [I can use this in my job but not that many people].
Compare the Surface Book to the MacBook Pro - same thing applies. Smaller screen, thicker and heavier, slower CPU.

I like the surface line despite what I have said above, but in no way are they better than Apple at present, but an alternative.

However second gen Studio and Surface Book products could be very interesting indeed and this is when it will be more clear who is on their game, given the next iMac refresh, and studio could both be October.

 

[cynics]

I think the Windows experience has greatly improved, particularly when you consider the value of the all-in-one Windows Surface and Windows 10. It really shows Microsoft has their "A-game" on, unlike Apple IMO who seem to be resting on their laurels.

To say you will never go back to Windows 10 ever sounds closed-minded. One can't predict the future and I like the focus and direction of Microsoft right now (and I was a huge critic).

It's fine if something is expensive, and I"ll pay $4000 for an Apple computer, but it has to be justified. I just can't justify the new MBPs. Remember there is a difference between pricey and overpriced.

Microsoft equivalents are similarly priced, but they're better value IMO, although right now I still prefer MacOS.


[doublepost=1495859214][/doublepost]

Not really because that was a maxed out 17", not a 15".

I find Microsoft and Apple products too different to have a fair comparison based on their targeted audience. You don't need to be part of that target audience to buy one or the other but that is the only way you'll find true value in either product. That is more then likely why you don't find as much value in the MBP as some others might.

The Microsoft Studio is a very clear example of that (at least to me). Many will compare it to the iMac however its cost is based around its touch screen which the iMac doesn't have. Since that is centerpiece its odd to me people would be willing to consider both. Do you need an incredibly expensive touch screen or not?

The new Surface laptop is about as close as we get (again IMO) and even then price for price assigning value to either is much to subjective for it to really be fair or at least say one is in fact better value then the other.

First we have software. To me MacOS itself is worth a couple hundred which completely offsets the price. Other peoples opinions will differ obviously. But most won't find much value in Windows S for sure.

Then we have hardware specs. If we compare the base 15" MBP to the maxed out Surface laptop we find the MBP has a more powerful quad core CPU (albeit last gen), a higher resolution with wider color gamut display (albeit not touch screen), MUCH more powerful dedicated GPU, MUCH more powerful IO (albeit dongles or cables required), MUCH more powerful OS (albeit Windows S can be upgraded), and better speakers (this is just a guess but the MacBook speakers are best in class). Well worth the 300 dollars more which narrows some since you'll be upgrading Windows.

If you find more value in the things in parentheses then you'll feel differently.

I guess we could compare the MBP to the new Surface Pro but thats a hybrid and just further narrows the price with similar specs (display is smaller with higher resolution though). Or we could compare that to the 13" MBP which specs are more similar since it doesn't have quad core or dedicated graphics. See what I mean by the difficulty in comparing them?

Regardless I feel debating their value is just debating matters of opinion.

 

[bjet767]

although I feel they are at the upper limit.

Ok let's play pretend.

You and I own a business and our goals are two-fold; the first being to make enough money to support our families and desired lifestyles. The second is to provide a product we believe in.

Why then would we sell our product for less than the amount that would not maximize our post cost cash flow?

Of course MacBooks are at the upper limits, Apple would be foolish to sell them for less.

Yes Apple is a business and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[richinaus]

Ok let's play pretend.

You and I own a business and our goals are two-fold; the first being to make enough money to support our families and desired lifestyles. The second is to provide a product we believe in.

Why then would we sell our product for less than the amount that would not maximize our post cost cash flow?

Of course MacBooks are at the upper limits, Apple would be foolish to sell them for less.

Yes Apple is a business and there's nothing wrong with that.

I do own a business. At what point did I say it was foolish to sell them for less? You sell your product for the highest price possible to get the returns you want.

My point is they would be foolish to increase the prices more. I am talking about the UK / Australia not the US.

 

[Appleaker]

When there's a redesign, the price increases.
In 2012, it increased by $400. Then over time went down by $200. In 2016, increased by $400.
So overall increased by $600 since 2012, and retains similar specs in terms of the RAM and storage.
The price jumps have also remained the same or increased (e.g. flash storage) which has increased the cost of upgrading.

 

[raqball]

Are they overpriced? Yup!

I just custom ordered a Lenovo X1 Carbon (2017) for $1576... Here are the specs:

• Processor : Intel Core i5-7300U Processor (3MB Cache, up to 3.50 GHz)
• Hard Drive : 512 GB Solid State Drive, PCIe-NVMe OPAL2.0
  
• Memory : 16GB LPDDR3 1866
  
• Operating System : Windows 10 Pro 64
• Display : 14.0" FHD (1920x1080) IPS Anti-Glare Non-Touch
• Graphics : Intel HD Graphics 620
• Body Color : Silver
• Keyboard : ThinkPad Backlit Keyboard English with Finger Print Reader and C-cover, Silver
• Security Features : Integrated Fingerprint Reader
• TPM Setting : Hardware dTPM2.0 Enabled
• Camera : 720p HD Camera with MIC
• Pointing Device : UltraNav (TrackPoint and ClickPad)
• Battery : 3cell Battery 57Wh
• Wireless : Intel Dual Band Wireless AC(2x2) 8265, Bluetooth Version 4
• Integrated Mobile Broadband : Qualcomm Snapdragon X7 LTE-A (Sierra Wireless EM7455)
• Integrated Wireless Antenna : WLAN+WWAN antenna

Now compare that to the new Macbook Pro machine with similar specs.. The Macbook Pro with 16GB RAM and a 512 GB SSD... $2300.00

• 3.1GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.5GHz
• 16GB 2133MHz memory
• 512GB PCIe-based SSD
• Intel Iris Graphics 550

So lets round up the price on the X1 and say it cost me $1600... A similarly equipped Pro (with a 6th gen CPU and GPU) is $2300 or $700 more!

If you don't find that to be overpriced then there is nothing I can really say to convince you.. Oh and BTW... The port selection on the X1 flat out demolishes the Pro, I have LTE in my X1 and it's has what's probably the best KB on the planet..

My .02

 

[BenTrovato]

Are they overpriced? Yup!

I just custom ordered a Lenovo X1 Carbon (2017) for $1576... Here are the specs:

• Processor : Intel Core i5-7300U Processor (3MB Cache, up to 3.50 GHz)
• Hard Drive : 512 GB Solid State Drive, PCIe-NVMe OPAL2.0
  
• Memory : 16GB LPDDR3 1866
  
• Operating System : Windows 10 Pro 64
• Display : 14.0" FHD (1920x1080) IPS Anti-Glare Non-Touch
• Graphics : Intel HD Graphics 620
• Body Color : Silver
• Keyboard : ThinkPad Backlit Keyboard English with Finger Print Reader and C-cover, Silver
• Security Features : Integrated Fingerprint Reader
• TPM Setting : Hardware dTPM2.0 Enabled
• Camera : 720p HD Camera with MIC
• Pointing Device : UltraNav (TrackPoint and ClickPad)
• Battery : 3cell Battery 57Wh
• Wireless : Intel Dual Band Wireless AC(2x2) 8265, Bluetooth Version 4
• Integrated Mobile Broadband : Qualcomm Snapdragon X7 LTE-A (Sierra Wireless EM7455)
• Integrated Wireless Antenna : WLAN+WWAN antenna

Now compare that to the new Macbook Pro machine with similar specs.. The Macbook Pro with 16GB RAM and a 512 GB SSD... $2300.00

• 3.1GHz dual-core Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.5GHz
• 16GB 2133MHz memory
• 512GB PCIe-based SSD
• Intel Iris Graphics 550

So lets round up the price on the X1 and say it cost me $1600... A similarly equipped Pro (with a 6th gen CPU and GPU) is $2300 or $700 more!

If you don't find that to be overpriced then there is nothing I can really say to convince you.. Oh and BTW... The port selection on the X1 flat out demolishes the Pro, I have LTE in my X1 and it's has what's probably the best KB on the planet..

My .02

While I agree with the MBP is over priced, this comparison is really bad. The display is horrible, the battery is useless and the build quality is nowhere near the Macs. There are other systems out there for less than the MBP but have QHD displays, decent batteries, and use better materials the X1 does. If you're trying to save money, sure the X1 gets everything done but it's definitely not a premium product.

 

[raqball]

The display is horrible, the battery is useless and the build quality is nowhere near the Macs. There are other systems out there for less than the MBP but have QHD displays, decent batteries, and use better materials the X1 does. If you're trying to save money, sure the X1 gets everything done but it's definitely not a premium product.

Ever used an X1 Carbon? They are renowned for their build quality... Heck it's got a roll cage on the inside!

The screen? Meh 1080p is a-ok by me but if you want qHD wait a few weeks and it's coming for $200 extra smack-a-roos.. Even with the qHD add on it still puts the machine MUCH less than the Macbook Pro with demolishing specs, similar build quality and ports that make the Macbook Pro blush.

Terrible battery life? Ummmm, it's on par with he Macbook Pro... Not a premium product? I don't know if I should laugh or just shake my head in derision at that remark.... X1 Carbons are widely considered the gold standard in the general business community..

Lastly the X1 Carbon I ordered would normally price out at $2189 which is similar to the Macbook Pro price. Lenovo always has sales, like they are having now for Memorial Day... I also get an additional 10% off the pricing... Hence the $1600 price I paid on on what is normally $2200 PC... You don't buy an X1 Carbon to save $$$$.. They are generally the most expensive Ultrabooks you can buy..

I can tell from your response you've never touched or used one but heck, I expect that in a Mac forum..

I had the 3rd gen X1 and it was stellar and I expect the 5th gen I ordered to be the same.. I did get mine in Silver which they just started doing this year..

 

[SteveJUAE]

I find Microsoft and Apple products too different to have a fair comparison based on their targeted audience. You don't need to be part of that target audience to buy one or the other but that is the only way you'll find true value in either product. That is more then likely why you don't find as much value in the MBP as some others might.

The Microsoft Studio is a very clear example of that (at least to me). Many will compare it to the iMac however its cost is based around its touch screen which the iMac doesn't have. Since that is centerpiece its odd to me people would be willing to consider both. Do you need an incredibly expensive touch screen or not?

The new Surface laptop is about as close as we get (again IMO) and even then price for price assigning value to either is much to subjective for it to really be fair or at least say one is in fact better value then the other.

First we have software. To me MacOS itself is worth a couple hundred which completely offsets the price. Other peoples opinions will differ obviously. But most won't find much value in Windows S for sure.

Then we have hardware specs. If we compare the base 15" MBP to the maxed out Surface laptop we find the MBP has a more powerful quad core CPU (albeit last gen), a higher resolution with wider color gamut display (albeit not touch screen), MUCH more powerful dedicated GPU, MUCH more powerful IO (albeit dongles or cables required), MUCH more powerful OS (albeit Windows S can be upgraded), and better speakers (this is just a guess but the MacBook speakers are best in class). Well worth the 300 dollars more which narrows some since you'll be upgrading Windows.

If you find more value in the things in parentheses then you'll feel differently.

I guess we could compare the MBP to the new Surface Pro but thats a hybrid and just further narrows the price with similar specs (display is smaller with higher resolution though). Or we could compare that to the 13" MBP which specs are more similar since it doesn't have quad core or dedicated graphics. See what I mean by the difficulty in comparing them?

Regardless I feel debating their value is just debating matters of opinion.

Whilst I like and agree generally with what you said I don't think it just matters of opinion but the value you place on potential.

If the grater potential offered on most MS laptops is useless or irrelevant to your needs then the perceived value is not there.

Even on the high end MBP quad core and TB3 etc true value is of limited use for many, even Apple consider it's pro user base is just 15% who are more likely to use this potential

 

[jinnyman]

I would still accept their price scheme if the parts they use are up-to-date.
Mac mini 3 years old, Mac Pro what?
iMac and MacBook Pro which Apple promotes as their main stream machines not yet the kaby.

And come on, 8 gig of ram nowadays should be common unless you are on budget using Celeron.

How dare Apple can promote that their product is premium product if they play with specification?

 

[richinaus]

I would still accept their price scheme if the parts they use are up-to-date.
Mac mini 3 years old, Mac Pro what?
iMac and MacBook Pro which Apple promotes as their main stream machines not yet the kaby.

And come on, 8 gig of ram nowadays should be common unless you are on budget using Celeron.

How dare Apple can promote that their product is premium product if they play with specification?

The simple answer is don't buy it if you don't think it is worth it.
I agree with everything you say however.

Apple provides well marketed and packaged products that look nice and perform well, but are not the leading edge.
MacOS and the associated services are the reason I stick with Apple, together with the service I get in stores - this is worth at least $400 to me above a similar specced computer.

 

[SteveJUAE]

The simple answer is don't buy it if you don't think it is worth it.
I agree with everything you say however.

Apple provides well marketed and packaged products that look nice and perform well, but are not the leading edge.
MacOS and the associated services are the reason I stick with Apple, together with the service I get in stores - this is worth at least $400 to me above a similar specced computer.

Whilst I can understand you placing this value on Apple services if you have additionally purchased AppleCare ie $400 over 3 years especially if you have a store nearby

But for only 90 days hand holding (Less than many other OEM's) and 1 year warranty no different than any other OEM I think $400 is a bit exaggerated

For many especially outside of the US this perception of just popping down the road and getting a replacement just is not true all you have done is saved a bit of postage time but had the hassle of going to the store and booking an appointment etc only to have it sent away

My son in the UK insisted on a Dell to replace his overstressed 15" MBP 2013, which includes onsite support which is far more convenient IMO

Sure for your average grannie who's having trouble switching on her Ipad the stores are great but for most here I like to think we are a little more adapt

 

[richinaus]

Whilst I can understand you placing this value on Apple services if you have additionally purchased AppleCare ie $400 over 3 years especially if you have a store nearby

But for only 90 days hand holding (Less than many other OEM's) and 1 year warranty no different than any other OEM I think $400 is a bit exaggerated

For many especially outside of the US this perception of just popping down the road and getting a replacement just is not true all you have done is saved a bit of postage time but had the hassle of going to the store and booking an appointment etc only to have it sent away

My son in the UK insisted on a Dell to replace his overstressed 15" MBP 2013, which includes onsite support which is far more convenient IMO

Sure for your average grannie who's having trouble switching on her Ipad the stores are great but for most here I like to think we are a little more adapt

good for you, and no $400 is not an exaggeration.
BTW this is for business and the staff at the store bend over backwards for me.

No other brand [except Samsung] has any retail store here. So there isn't the same experience, relationship building etc.
I have had nothing else except for exemplary service, which for me is invaluable.

How many OEM's have you dealt with? I have dealt with HP, DELL, LG and MS and all have been terrible. Maybe I have been unlucky, but this has been the opposite to being able to talk to someone who actually speaks English, and resolve the issues quickly without issue. This plus the services [Icloud, iTunes etc] is worth the additional cost to me.

Hope your son enjoys his Dell.

 

[raqball]

No other brand [except Samsung] has any retail store here. So there isn't the same experience, relationship building etc.

Microsoft Stores are most places. Heck I think there is like 6 of them in the LA area alone.. But if none are where you live then I can see why you might prefer Apple..

I have had nothing else except for exemplary service, which for me is invaluable.

I agree that Apple generally has stellar service.. There are many however who have been bitten by Apple so all is not cookies and cream..

I would not put a $400 price tag on their service however.. As previously stated, all you are doing is going to the Apple Store to have them mail it off for repairs -v- going to the UPS store and mailing it back yourself to (insert-company-name-here) for service or repair..

The Lenovo X1 Carbon I purchased has 3-year on site service. That means Lenovo sends a tech to wherever I am within 24 hours.. I don't think I'd call that bad service.. Dell and other PC makers have similar offerings.. Does Apple come to your home or wherever you are to repair the machine? Nope!

Lastly I'll add this to the mix.. The new Macbooks are non repairable at just about every level! Battery? Nope! RAM? Nope! SSD? Nope!.. If something fails (like the SSD) the entire computer heads off to the trashcan...

Now at least on my X1 Carbon (and other PC's as well) things can be user replaced.. On my X1 I can replace the SSD in like 1 minute, replace the battery, replace the LTE card, ect...

My .02

 

[HerbertDerb]

I know that Apple has ALWAYS asked for premium when it comes to their products. But:

For 2999€ you can get:
-Dell XPS 15" 4K
-Kaby Lake 3.8GHZ
-32GB Ram
-1TB (NVME PCIe)
-97whr battery
-1050 4GB

Lets see what you can get with Apple:
MBP 15":
- 3.8" Turbo (Soon most likely Kaby Lake)
- 16Gb ram
- 1TB SSD (Probably faster but hold on)
- 460 PRO 4GB

All this from Apple for the small loan of: 4139€

That is 1140€ price difference. This absolutely ridiculous. I know that Apple has better QC and MacOS (Which to me is worth some premium) But this is without doub too much. And lets hope Apple closes the cap on the refreshed models.

Oh i forgot. There is something that Apple sells cheaper: Extended warranty!! 3 Years for AppleCare is 345€ and for Dell ProSupport its 350€!!! Totally worth to go Apple for that! (I'm joking)

And this in Finland btw. I know that Apple kicked in the nuts of Europe-buyers. "Because of brexit" Funny that Apple is the ONLY company to react to that this extremely.

 

[richinaus]

Microsoft Stores are most places. Heck I think there is like 6 of them in the LA area alone.. But if none are where you live then I can see why you might prefer Apple..




I agree that Apple generally has stellar service.. There are many however who have been bitten by Apple so all is not cookies and cream..

I would not put a $400 price tag on their service however.. As previously stated, all you are doing is going to the Apple Store to have them mail it off for repairs -v- going to the UPS store and mailing it back yourself to (insert-company-name-here) for service or repair..

The Lenovo X1 Carbon I purchased has 3-year on site service. That means Lenovo sends a tech to wherever I am within 24 hours.. I don't think I'd call that bad service.. Dell and other PC makers have similar offerings.. Does Apple come to your home or wherever you are to repair the machine? Nope!

Lastly I'll add this to the mix.. The new Macbooks are non repairable at just about every level! Battery? Nope! RAM? Nope! SSD? Nope!.. If something fails (like the SSD) the entire computer heads off to the trashcan...

Now at least on my X1 Carbon (and other PC's as well) things can be user replaced.. On my X1 I can replace the SSD in like 1 minute, replace the battery, replace the LTE card, ect...

My .02

Fair enough - we buy what we want and put the value we perceive into it.

a few points though.... not everyone on the internet lives in the US, and also I have had a very bad experience with Lenovo too.

I am not really interested in changing parts in my computers anymore - the computers purchased are maxed out and get updated annually anyway, so warranty / specs are not an issue.

also in 20 years of use, I have not once sent in an Apple computer for repair. Not one. Many PC's have been sent back though.

You are happy with your X1, I am happy with my Apple gear so that's fine.

 

[SteveJUAE]

good for you, and no $400 is not an exaggeration.
BTW this is for business and the staff at the store bend over backwards for me.

No other brand [except Samsung] has any retail store here. So there isn't the same experience, relationship building etc.
I have had nothing else except for exemplary service, which for me is invaluable.

How many OEM's have you dealt with? I have dealt with HP, DELL, LG and MS and all have been terrible. Maybe I have been unlucky, but this has been the opposite to being able to talk to someone who actually speaks English, and resolve the issues quickly without issue. This plus the services [Icloud, iTunes etc] is worth the additional cost to me.

Hope your son enjoys his Dell.

Whilst it seems you have been very unlucky and have been the opposite and very lucky I think the last time I had to take back a PC for replacement was 1986 when a whopping 20mb hard drive failed LOL and Sony replaced a graphics card FOC in 2 days about 12 years back on a ZX laptop

I have use HP support when I have taken printers to other countries and MS I when I wanted to uninstall a copy and re-install on another PC in a different country and not only was the call free and they spent considerable time in assistance and warranty did not even enter in to the conversation

I'm glad you get exemplary service from your local store and generally Apple's reputation for this is second to none. However I find that this is more a US and some major towns or cities elsewhere and YMMV even then and especially countries that generally only have approved retailers then the service just goes rapidly down hill

The only thing that has bugged me is Apple power brick I have had to buy 6 replacements for my family and we had 2 MBP that had peeling screen coatings that we sold

I understand the feeling of getting better than average service and I get that from many premium retailers and its a good feeling but it seldom persuades me other than impulse buying

I have had an Apple email and Icloud for many years across all my devices and it's not a requirement to have a MAC, I don't use iTunes or any IOS devices anymore

 

[cynics]

I would still accept their price scheme if the parts they use are up-to-date.
Mac mini 3 years old, Mac Pro what?
iMac and MacBook Pro which Apple promotes as their main stream machines not yet the kaby.

And come on, 8 gig of ram nowadays should be common unless you are on budget using Celeron.

How dare Apple can promote that their product is premium product if they play with specification?

I agree and disagree. I agree because current Macs being sold right now aren't using cutting edge components. However I disagree because this is all due to the products not being updated faster.

This generally comes down to CPU because not only is it a limiting factor for other variables its the most obvious. Because what other parts are there? They use Wifi AC, TB3, PCIe SSDs, etc.....

However when Apple released many of the Macs they currently sell they were using the latest of Intels offerings in their respective category. The respective category is the important part to remember.

For example the MBP uses Skylake even though Kaby Lake was available, however only Kaby Lake desktop CPUs were available. Equivalent Kaby Lake laptop replacements became available in Q1 2017.

The Mac Mini is the same way. When it was released they moved to the U series from Intel which they used the latest of Intels offerings. The omission of quad core was unfortunate but in reality you need to be doing something very specific to notice any real world difference and if you are then the Mini probably wasn't the best option for you to begin with quad core or not. For the average user the 2014 should be an upgrade, mostly due to better iGPU.

And honestly I don't know much about the Mac Pro however I do see the 2013 Mac Pro uses a E5-2697v2 which was released Q3 2013. Since I don't use a work station or know much about the Xeon line up in general I can contest if there was a better option at the time or not.

Its not the parts being used, its the frequency of the updates or lack thereof. This is made even worse by the Apples marketing. When you get on there webpage and look at Mac Minis and then do research it almost gives the impression its a new product using old parts when if fact its just a old product still using old parts.

 

[ZapNZs]

good for you, and no $400 is not an exaggeration.
BTW this is for business and the staff at the store bend over backwards for me.

No other brand [except Samsung] has any retail store here. So there isn't the same experience, relationship building etc.
I have had nothing else except for exemplary service, which for me is invaluable.

How many OEM's have you dealt with? I have dealt with HP, DELL, LG and MS and all have been terrible. Maybe I have been unlucky, but this has been the opposite to being able to talk to someone who actually speaks English, and resolve the issues quickly without issue. This plus the services [Icloud, iTunes etc] is worth the additional cost to me.

Hope your son enjoys his Dell.

My experiences in Microsoft stores has been roughly comparable to my experiences in Apple Stores, which I would describe as "all-around outstanding." To me, the big differences between Apple and Microsoft service is, 1) Apple's phone support is far superior, and 2) Apple's use of Apple Authorized Service Providers has given us thousands of places to go that are easy to locate, will without question mean competent Apple-authorized techs work on the machine, ensure there are zero questions regarding warranty coverage, and often allows us to support our local economy as many of these Providers are local mom/pop shops - further, whatever accreditation system Apple uses works very well, as Apple Authorized Service Providers consistently deliver some of the finest service on the planet.

 

[cynics]

I know that Apple has ALWAYS asked for premium when it comes to their products. But:

For 2999€ you can get:
-Dell XPS 15" 4K
-Kaby Lake 3.8GHZ
-32GB Ram
-1TB (NVME PCIe)
-97whr battery
-1050 4GB

Lets see what you can get with Apple:
MBP 15":
- 3.8" Turbo (Soon most likely Kaby Lake)
- 16Gb ram
- 1TB SSD (Probably faster but hold on)
- 460 PRO 4GB

All this from Apple for the small loan of: 4139€

That is 1140€ price difference. This absolutely ridiculous. I know that Apple has better QC and MacOS (Which to me is worth some premium) But this is without doub too much. And lets hope Apple closes the cap on the refreshed models.

Oh i forgot. There is something that Apple sells cheaper: Extended warranty!! 3 Years for AppleCare is 345€ and for Dell ProSupport its 350€!!! Totally worth to go Apple for that! (I'm joking)

And this in Finland btw. I know that Apple kicked in the nuts of Europe-buyers. "Because of brexit" Funny that Apple is the ONLY company to react to that this extremely.

Even in the US the delta between those is $950. $900 if you went with Win10 Pro which offers various things but some Apple users switching will want Bitlocker if they are used to Filevault.

However for more of a fair comparison we should use the top tier 15" MBP with its base spec 3.6ghz turbo CPU which makes the delta between them $700.

I say this because you are comparing the Dells i7-7700HQ to the MBPs i7-6920HQ which is not only more powerful its MUCH more expensive. Like Apple, Intel puts what is probably an artificial premium on it because only premium manufacturers use it. The 2.7ghz with 3.6ghz turbo (i7-6820HQ) found as the base spec in the top model performs similarly and is about the same cost currently. If we take into account the launch dates some could argue the lowest i7 in 15" (i7-6700HQ) Apple offers to be the most fair comparison which would have a delta of $600.

Its usually tough to compare Windows laptops to Apples MBP because there are generally glaring omissions. However with the XPS 15 it meets and exceeds the MBP where it counts. For example, usually a competitor will use a display that just meets marketing buzz words however the XPS 15 not only has a 4k display its 100% Adobe RGB. So its actually really really good....

It is worth mentioning the CPU difference above though and the fact Apples "out of date" MBP has faster options then most (all?) competitors in its class. They also have that "devils in the details" approach with things like better speakers, their trackpad, 4 lane PCIe Thunderbolt 3, and stuff like that. Not many (if any) corners were cut.

That said the cost difference between the MBP and XPS 15 is nearly impossible to justify to the OS agnostic. Its not just cheaper than the MBP its just a good deal all around especially when considered as a MBP alternative.

 

[JackieInCo]

Are there really lots of people out there who buy laptops and need to upgrade RAM or HDD at any point in that machine's lifetime?

In terms of the quality of Apple's product, I've yet to see a laptop which comes close to it in terms of overall build quality and attention to detail. Let alone in producing a great trackpad. Those elements alone are worth paying something for in my opinion, but I totally understand why some people don't feel like that.

In 2015 I bought my 2015 15" MBP plus a 2012 13" MBP from BestBuy. I bought the 13" when it was on sale for $799 and I upgraded the RAM to 16GB last year and put in an SSD last month. I bought the 2012 not only because of what already was in it but because I could upgrade the RAM and put in a SSD.

As for OP and the cost of new MBPs, I don't mind spending the money on them because it's not something I'm going to buy every year. I have no problem using both of my MBPs until they are either too slow or something quits working on them.

Previously before buying these two MBPs, I was using a white 2010 MB but had to quit using it when the battery swelled up pushing the trackpad up through the palmrests breaking the plastic on both sides.

 

[SteveJUAE]

My experiences in Microsoft stores has been roughly comparable to my experiences in Apple Stores, which I would describe as "all-around outstanding." To me, the big differences between Apple and Microsoft service is, 1) Apple's phone support is far superior, and 2) Apple's use of Apple Authorized Service Providers has given us thousands of places to go that are easy to locate, will without question mean competent Apple-authorized techs work on the machine, ensure there are zero questions regarding warranty coverage, and often allows us to support our local economy as many of these Providers are local mom/pop shops - further, whatever accreditation system Apple uses works very well, as Apple Authorized Service Providers consistently deliver some of the finest service on the planet.

I agree the model you present is very good for the US but elsewhere YMMV greatly

Whilst it's not unique to Apple but I see further (not in the box) trends of extra costs of late IMO with with an ever increasing array of new dongles/adapters/cables etc and the loss of easy storage solutions adding to the burden for some, but not all.

You now have to carefully consider if AppleCare is almost mandatory for most given the more homogenised components of the new MBP and rMB.

Previously I would of said you would be unlucky to get an over $400 repair bill in a 3 year period but that risk and cost has increased substantially. Simply as any one of 3 or 4 components can mean a >$800 repair due to the revised construction methods and probably worse if you have spec'd up.

Therefore the extra costs of new MBP and rMB should include a large % AppleCare cost over other systems comparisons that allow some greater flexibility in terms of repairs and the by product of easier upgrades, if you intend to keep your laptop longer than 1 year.

Cost of MBP ownership has never been greater unfortunately

 

[raqball]

You now have to carefully consider if AppleCare is almost mandatory for most given the more homogenised components of the new MBP and rMB.

Cost of MBP ownership has never been greater unfortunately

Fully agree.. Apple Care+ is a must buy with the new machines. One item fails and the entire computer is done!

The cost of Apple Care+ should be factored in to any Macbook / Pro purchase as buying without it, on these new machines, is dangerous..

 

[mtneer]

Apple charges some much because people pay that much. Haven't you seen the obsessive panting and breathless fans nearly fainting every time a device gets released in Cupertino? Prices come down when demand does..