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Mr Skills

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2005
803
1
If your going to be spending a lot of money, then IMO you should be doing product research and making sure the product meets your needs...

I know that when I buy things I do research, read reviews, and ask for peoples opinions.

I have to agree that anyone spending that much money without asking if the product involved will do the specific things they want it to has no grounds on which to complain.

That pretty much sums it up. This thread was started because someone didn't pay enough attention or ask enough questions when they were buying their computer. To get upset about their Mac missing a feature Apple never claimed it had (and most lines of PCs don't include as standard on their entry model) is ridiculous.

Please understand: all of us discussing this are informed consumers who understand what it is we are buying and know what research we have to do first. But much of Apple's marketing is aimed at people who would not know where to begin. They will read a couple of magazine articles, look at the "Get A Mac" pages and think "Wow! It's expensive, but I can make easy DVDs at home!!". Then they will buy the cheapest model (because these sorts of people always do) and be disappointed.

Apple have powerful marketing suggesting that you can do all this out the box, and a tiny footnote buried somewhere on their site is simply not good enough when compared to the marketing juggernought which implies the opposite. Especially when these days DVD burners are such a bog-standard commodity in consumer machines of this price.




Seriously...I don't need a dvd burner, and wouldn't want to pay extra to get something I don't need.

You are a rare beast indeed if you use *every* feature of your Mac. Apple are not like Dell, with a million different options. They tend to make most things inclusive to keep the options simple. I'm sure fewer people use Bluetooth than DVD burning, but perhaps that is the point: Bluetooth makes the machine's specs look nicer, but is not a big enough reason for lots of people to upgrade. So there is no advantage to Apple in leaving it out of the cheaper machines.

Apple would not have to increase the cost of the iMac if it had a DVD burner, but by leaving it out they make their marketing.... not false, of course, but certainly disingenuous.


.
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
That pretty much sums it up. This thread was started because someone didn't pay enough attention or ask enough questions when they were buying their computer. To get upset about their Mac missing a feature Apple never claimed it had (and most lines of PCs don't include as standard on their entry model) is ridiculous.

problem is people saying that are missing bigger point of the OP. Yes I agree that they should of read the specs but at the same time I think it is very sad and pathetic of apple not to have a DVD burner standard at at the 1k price point.

To get a burner with a monitor from apple that does not start until the 1200 price point compared to dell hp starting less than 700 you can get a burner on a computer. that is over 500 price differences.
It is a prime example of why people say the apple premium is there. Apple put crappy hardware in hire end computers.
 

2tallyAwesome

macrumors regular
Jan 16, 2007
194
53
.....So buy a dell?

If you really are going to to start comparing Dells to Apples regarding this subject, then why don't you just get a dell?

No?

Because Dells are substandard machines, with a substandard operating system. You can't compare the two items objectively because it's comparing two very different machines, with usually two very different intended uses.



As for the purchasing options...

Apples are also designed to be 'idiot proof'

From the purchsing options, to the user interface, to the instructions. They are packaged into preloaded bundles for people with limited technological prowess to easily determine which bundle works best for their needs.

However it still depends on people to READ THE DESCRIPTIONS.

Seriously...it's like 10 little bullet points that are worded in plain English, I think you all need to get over it.
 

torero

macrumors member
Jul 9, 2005
33
0
I've noticed when you convince people to 'switch' they immediately find something wrong with the mac and sort of regret spending the cash. I suggest finding the simplest solution to make them forget about this problem: offer to burn their dvds for them until they can get an upgrade. They'll probably want one or two and then forget about it and by that time will love their machine.
 

Mr Skills

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2005
803
1
.....So buy a dell?

If you really are going to to start comparing Dells to Apples regarding this subject, then why don't you just get a dell?

:rolleyes: Read my post again. I was praising Apple's way of doing it. I just want them to be consistent.


No?

Because Dells are substandard machines, with a substandard operating system. You can't compare the two items objectively because it's comparing two very different machines, with usually two very different intended uses.

Yes, and one of the biggest intended markets for the Mac is people with limited technical ability, as you yourself point out:

Apples are also designed to be 'idiot proof'

From the purchsing options, to the user interface, to the instructions. They are packaged into preloaded bundles for people with limited technological prowess to easily determine which bundle works best for their needs.

My point exactly.


However it still depends on people to READ THE DESCRIPTIONS.

Seriously...it's like 10 little bullet points that are worded in plain English, I think you all need to get over it.

To some of the people I know, this is not plain English at all! It might as well be written in Martian. These people can move a mouse around, and might even manage something simple in iMovie, but "24x combo drive" means nothing to them.

And what if they don't buy online at the Apple store? Do you expect them to go to their local shop and specifically ask whether the Mac comes with something, when a massive amount of marketing clearly implies that it does?

I am not suggesting that every Mac should come with a free space shuttle! Just an ordinary, cheap, every-day feature that is present on most other machines, and which is an important part of their marketing promises.

The free space shuttle would be cool, though... :p
 

2tallyAwesome

macrumors regular
Jan 16, 2007
194
53
I am not suggesting that every Mac should come with a free space shuttle! Just an ordinary, cheap, every-day feature that is present on most other machines, and which is an important part of their marketing promises.

The free space shuttle would be cool, though... :p

You are seriously overexagerating the importance and commonality of the DVD burner. I know many people who own computers (both mac and pc) and it's only a very small margin of these people that actually have and use a dvd burner.

The dvd burner is one very small feature that is only necessary for a handful of operations, and usually no one is going to miss.

As for the 'confusion'...

The computers at the Apple Store, and the descriptions on the website, are very clear as to which models have a super/combo drive. If a person doesn't understand what this means then it is THEIR responsibility to ASK.

For someone to believe that they should be able to blindly buy what most people consider to be a major purchase without doing the tiniest bit of research is ridiculous, and strengthens my opinion that people want all the thinking done for them.
 

Mr Skills

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2005
803
1
You are seriously overexagerating the importance and commonality of the DVD burner. I know many people who own computers (both mac and pc) and it's only a very small margin of these people that actually have and use a dvd burner.

The dvd burner is one very small feature that is only necessary for a handful of operations, and usually no one is going to miss.

As for the 'confusion'...

The computers at the Apple Store, and the descriptions on the website, are very clear as to which models have a super/combo drive. If a person doesn't understand what this means then it is THEIR responsibility to ASK.

For someone to believe that they should be able to blindly buy what most people consider to be a major purchase without doing the tiniest bit of research is ridiculous, and strengthens my opinion that people want all the thinking done for them.

But these people ARE doing their research, and all of that research suggests that Macs are 'great for making movies and burning them to DVD'. You cannot expect them always to grasp the fine technical details. If everything suggests to the non-techie that they will be able to burn DVDs, why should the seemingly innocent phrase "combo drive" put them off?

If Apple are not going to put a (very, very cheap) DVD burner on their mainstream machines, they should make this VERY CLEAR. Not just 'possible to find out if you're tech-savvy enough to look'. Most people are naive about computers. It is unfair that they should pay for their trust in Apple's marketing, and their naiveté about a very complex subject, just because nerds like us find it simple.

I speak from the point of view of having to hand-hold my parents and various other switchers. They are very intelligent people, and research their purchases carefully, but would so easily have fallen into the same trap as the OP if I had not been there for them.

That "handful of operations that no-one is going to miss" are the very operations that Apple spends millions of dollars advertising. If they don't think it's an important part of the Mac experience, they should not advertise it so heavily.


.
 

dpaanlka

macrumors 601
Nov 16, 2004
4,868
30
Illinois
I have spent the last 2 years, C:( onvincing my sister to buy a mac. Well she and her husband just bought the 999.99 i mac. Great right, wrong there are very disappointed to learn that they wont be able to burn dvds with out a costly upgrade or a cumbersome external burner. I know it's there own fault for not paying attention to what they were buying, But common a drive on a thousand dollar desktop that only supports cd-r. This is the year 2007 apple shame on you .

That's their fault for not reading the specs correctly or asking the right questions at the store.

And to answer the question posed in the title, I know eight non-tech-savvy people with DVD burners, and only one of them has ever used theirs. Burning DVDs is not yet as widely accepted as you would like to believe. Most people are quite satisfied burning CDs and using USB flash drives.

In fact, not one single person I know who has a Mac (besides me) has even used iMovie. In fact none of them even have a digital camcorder.

EDIT: That includes the following people (a lot more than eight, actually):

My Mom
My Dad
My Aunt
My other Aunt
My friend P.K.
My friend M.S.
My friend J.D.
My friend A.L.
My friend D.M.
My friend V.S.
My friend V.S.'s Brother
My friend D.K.
My friend V.K.
 

Naimfan

Suspended
Jan 15, 2003
4,669
2,017
Skills and Rodimus--

While it is certainly possible to configure a Dell or HP to have a DVD burner for $700, three thoughts immediately leap to mind.

First, you cannot begin to seriously compare a $700 Dell or HP to an iMac, do you not agree?

Second, on Dell's webpage, the first computer to have DVD burner standard is the E521, which is currently $649.00. It is listed under the "Advanced" tab, making it the 9th of 16 machines. Most people who are technically challenged are NOT the people who will be doing a custom configuration, n'est-ce pas?

Third, I think you are crediting marketing with a power it only wishes it had.

Also, I have no idea what "hire end" means.... :D

Best,

Bob
 

snowmoon

macrumors 6502a
Oct 6, 2005
900
119
Albany, NY
Combo drives are a necessity for the low end, cost sensitive, educational market where $30 let alone $200 is a make or break cost issue. Hell they still wish the eMac was more common since they were cheaper still.

This page says "Faxing, Built In" for Tiger, does that mean that every system they sell can fax out of the box? No, you need a modem! Not a single Intel Mac ( AFAICT ) has a modem built in, you have to buy it separately.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/faxing/
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
Skills and Rodimus--

While it is certainly possible to configure a Dell or HP to have a DVD burner for $700, three thoughts immediately leap to mind.

First, you cannot begin to seriously compare a $700 Dell or HP to an iMac, do you not agree?

Second, on Dell's webpage, the first computer to have DVD burner standard is the E521, which is currently $649.00. It is listed under the "Advanced" tab, making it the 9th of 16 machines. Most people who are technically challenged are NOT the people who will be doing a custom configuration, n'est-ce pas?

Third, I think you are crediting marketing with a power it only wishes it had.

Also, I have no idea what "hire end" means.... :D

Best,

Bob
umm to tell you the truth I CAN do that comparison here. Because it not showing which computer it better. I clear that cheap ass dell/hp is not as good as the iMac but it can have a DVD burner.

So you are seeing the cheaper computers having the Burner the average Joe is going to expect a more expensive computer to have a burner. Big time when it is a few 100 more than the cheaper crappier computers.

Simple requirements,
Monitor and burner.

Dell less than 700
HP less than 700
Apple 1200.

Than is over a 500 dollar price difference. This is the point we are trying to make.

Plus apple markets that it is making things easier for everyone. OK so that means they should not really expect people to read the fine print and since other companies are selling sub 1000 dollar computer STANDARD with a DVD burner people are going to expect a 1k computer to have it. I sorry I see apple kind of lying about it self because it makes it confusing when you have parts that are sub par for you price range.
 

Mr Skills

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2005
803
1
And to answer the question posed in the title, I know eight non-tech-savvy people with DVD burners, and only one of them has ever used theirs. Burning DVDs is not yet as widely accepted as you would like to believe. Most people are quite satisfied burning CDs and using USB flash drives.

So what? If it's really not that important, they should not be advertising it so heavily. If they DO imply it in their advertising, they should either include it, or make it very clear that they don't.

First, you cannot begin to seriously compare a $700 Dell or HP to an iMac, do you not agree?

The only sentence in which I mentioned Dell was "Apple are not like Dell". So of course I agree. :rolleyes:

Most people who are technically challenged are NOT the people who will be doing a custom configuration, n'est-ce pas?

Exactly! They will assume that the stuff they saw in the advert Just Works™.

Third, I think you are crediting marketing with a power it only wishes it had.

Apple clearly thinks it has this power, or they would not spend $300,000,000 doing it each year (and that's just advertising, not the whole marketing budget). Marketing is less effective on well-informed consumers. The kind of people we are talking about are by definition less well informed and simultaneously one of the main targets of all that advertising money.
 

2tallyAwesome

macrumors regular
Jan 16, 2007
194
53
But these people ARE doing their research, and all of that research suggests that Macs are 'great for making movies and burning them to DVD'. You cannot expect them always to grasp the fine technical details. If everything suggests to the non-techie that they will be able to burn DVDs, why should the seemingly innocent phrase "combo drive" put them off?

If Apple are not going to put a (very, very cheap) DVD burner on their mainstream machines, they should make this VERY CLEAR. Not just 'possible to find out if you're tech-savvy enough to look'. Most people are naive about computers. It is unfair that they should pay for their trust in Apple's marketing, and their naiveté about a very complex subject, just because nerds like us find it simple.

I speak from the point of view of having to hand-hold my parents and various other switchers. They are very intelligent people, and research their purchases carefully, but would so easily have fallen into the same trap as the OP if I had not been there for them.

That "handful of operations that no-one is going to miss" are the very operations that Apple spends millions of dollars advertising. If they don't think it's an important part of the Mac experience, they should not advertise it so heavily.


.

What advertising exactly are you refering to?

The TV commercials, banner ads, and info on their site that I have personally seen make no mention of the DVD capabilities of the mac. I see commercials regarding compatability with outside devices, security issues etc. Even the TV commerical ABOUT MAKING HOME MOVIES concentrates on iMovie, and not iDVD. At the very least it appears to be considered secondary in their overall advertising model.

So your argument regarding apple permeating the marketplace with claims of DVD compatibility is severly flawed.

...and yes, I believe that if someone sees something that they don't understand on the description of the item they are looking at, they should inquire.

It's not like this information is buried under mountains of fine print, both on the website, and at the apple store, there is a quick run down of the bullet points next to the machine stating what the item includes. If someone sees something like "super drive" or "combo drive" they need to find out what that means.

When I switched to a mac, I saw the same thing, and quickly called the apple store and asked.

SIMPLE

If people can't figure that out, then it seems like more of a lack of common sense, and not a problem with apple's advertising.
 

Mr Skills

macrumors 6502a
Nov 21, 2005
803
1
What advertising exactly are you refering to?

The TV commercials, banner ads, and info on their site that I have personally seen make no mention of the DVD capabilities of the mac. I see commercials regarding compatability with outside devices, security issues etc. Even the TV commerical ABOUT MAKING HOME MOVIES concentrates on iMovie, and not iDVD. At the very least it appears to be considered secondary in their overall advertising model.

So your argument regarding apple permeating the marketplace with claims of DVD compatibility is severly flawed.

See post #41, where I quote extensively from their marketing material. Of course they are very careful with their wording so it is not really guaranteeing that you will have DVD burning ability, but there is no way that it is not clearly implicit.




...and yes, I believe that if someone sees something that they don't understand on the description of the item they are looking at, they should inquire.

It's not like this information is buried under mountains of fine print, both on the website, and at the apple store, there is a quick run down of the bullet points next to the machine stating what the item includes. If someone sees something like "super drive" or "combo drive" they need to find out what that means.

When I switched to a mac, I saw the same thing, and quickly called the apple store and asked.

SIMPLE

If people can't figure that out, then it seems like more of a lack of common sense, and not a problem with apple's advertising.

It is so very easy, when you are technically minded, to forget just how confusing this stuff is to the absolute beginner. Should my 68-year-old father be asking about such things as the "core 2 duo dual core processor"? He knows that the answer is going to be meaningless to him, and assumes the same about "combo drive". It's all gobbledegook.

He just wants to know *what he can do* with the thing, and the Get A Mac site clearly says "When you’re ready to share your jaw-dropping movies with friends and family ... Make professional-looking widescreen DVDs with ease." There is NO fineprint on that page that tells you otherwise. You have to navigate to a completely different page to find this out.

It is wrong to advertise misleadingly (however much you can hide in technicalities of the language) and then say "well, you should have done the research instead of believing me".


PS - I'm really enjoying this but I have to go out now. Just in case you think you've landed a knock-out punch :D
 

BigPrince

macrumors 68020
Dec 27, 2006
2,053
111
Some of you blame the way Apple Markets...

People should be doing research from other sources then Apple. Of course Apple is going to Market their product in the best possible light, why would do they otherwise.

Why would you only go to Apple for your research. One should realize that of course Apple is going to tell you they have a great product. Go OTHER sources to find out the "Hidden" faults.

You keep on stating that iDVD NEEDS and DVD Burner. It DOES NOT. You can make them for your computer, this works very nicely with FRONT ROW...

EDIT:

While it would be nice for all Apple Computers to come with SuperDrives, they are in the business of MAKING MONEY so this is one of their methods of doing so. This is the LOW END model. Similar to when you buy anything LOW END such as a car.


Bottom Line:

Do proper research from a VARIETY of sources.
 

MacSA

macrumors 68000
Jun 4, 2003
1,803
5
UK
I just went to Dell's website and in 30 seconds found a computer without a DVD burner. In fact, that computer didn't even have a CD burner, just a DVD-ROM.

Perhaps so, but I bet it doesn't cost $1000. It appalling that Apple are still selling expensive computers with ancient hardware in them. Plus it makes most of their iLife software useless. (iMovie, iDVD)
 

BigPrince

macrumors 68020
Dec 27, 2006
2,053
111
Perhaps so, but I bet it doesn't cost $1000. It appalling that Apple are still selling expensive computers with ancient hardware in them. Plus it makes most of their iLife software useless. (iMovie, iDVD)

Yes very useless.

It stops you from posting on You Tube, watching through Front Row, stop you using your Apple TV (or other streaming device), and stops you from hooking your computer to a TV or projector for viewing.

Yes, missing a SuperDrive makes MOST of iLife usless.

/end sarcasm
 

dpaanlka

macrumors 601
Nov 16, 2004
4,868
30
Illinois
/end sarcasm

Don't forget, you can't burn CDs or create Podcasts without a Sueprdrive either, nor can you use your iPod or Airport Express device. And don't even think of ordering one of those fancy iPhoto Books or editing and applying effects to your photos. Connect your audio keyboard and create music with Garage Band? You can just forget about that without a Superdrive. Don't even think of watching DVD movies or maintaining a blog with iWeb either, or buying music, TV shows, and Movies with iTunes. Just forget about having all the above mentioned programs work seamlessly together. Without a Superdrive, none of this is possible, especially not right out of the box. It makes so much sense to buy a Dell instead.
 

BigPrince

macrumors 68020
Dec 27, 2006
2,053
111
Wrong: (no disrespect)


Combo Drive is a type of optical drive that combines CD-R/CD-RW recording capability with the ability to read (but not write) DVD media. The term was popularized by Apple Computer as a name for the low-end substitute for their high-end SuperDrive, which was designed to both read and write DVD and DVD recordable media. The device was created as a mid-range option between a CD burner and a DVD burner, which at the time the combo drive was introduced was generally an expensive option costing in excess of US$300 a unit.

Combo drives are becoming less and less common on new systems, though they do occasionally appear in lieu of CD-only drives on low-end computers to lower production and sale costs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_drive

EDIT:
You've edited your post and made some other statements. Please clarify so I may concur or counter. I am not aware how an iPod relates to a SuperDrive and GarageBand to a SuperDrive or airport express or iPhoto.
 

MacSA

macrumors 68000
Jun 4, 2003
1,803
5
UK
Can you be any more over-dramatic and exaggerative?




(yes, exaggerative is a word)


Err No. I think it sums things up perfectly.

You can't go into a shop in the UK and buy a computer with a combo drive...unless it's an Apple Mac of course :rolleyes:
 

MacSA

macrumors 68000
Jun 4, 2003
1,803
5
UK
Yes very useless.

It stops you from posting on You Tube, watching through Front Row, stop you using your Apple TV (or other streaming device), and stops you from hooking your computer to a TV or projector for viewing.

Yes, missing a SuperDrive makes MOST of iLife usless.

/end sarcasm

Can you explain how you Burn the Movie you created in iMovie with the included iDVD software to you CD burning combodrive?
 

BigPrince

macrumors 68020
Dec 27, 2006
2,053
111
Can you explain how you Burn the Movie you created in iMovie with the included iDVD software to you CD burning combodrive?

These types of activies don't require one to burn anything...my point is that there are other things one can still do without a superdrive. Not everything you do in iLife has to go to a dvd...
 

MacSA

macrumors 68000
Jun 4, 2003
1,803
5
UK
He's saying that you're conclusion that not having a DVD burner makes "most of iLife useless" is pretty ridiculous:


But it's not ridiculous though is it? You still haven't explained how you burn a DVD movie in iDVD on your CD Combo drive.

iLife is one of Apple's big selling points and is always brought out in the PC vs Mac debate.
 
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