Why don't apple give a full screen option

[robbieduncan]

Wait. Are people now calling a maximised window full screen? Because that's not very sensible. They are different things and mixing the definitions will only lead to confusion.

A maximised window is just a normal window that happens to cover the entire screen, but not the menu bar.

A full-screen app takes over the whole screen, like Aperture does in full screen mode.

These two things are not the same thing and cannot be used interchangeably.

 

[Nick T.]

Maximised windows are not part of a well designed UI. It wastes desktop space which could be used for other tasks while you are using the main application.

In my opinion a well-designed user interface is one which enables user workflow to be as efficient and effortless as practical. I do not think that a well-designed UI should act as Big Brother (especially Apple, considering their 1984 SuperBowl TV commercial) and prevent me from wasting desktop space.

It may be true that few users want to run any application maximized, I don't have the numbers, but there certainly are some: spreadsheet users and owners of 12" laptop screens come to mind with little thought.

In OS X one has to catch the titlebar and drag the window's position to the upper left corner of the screen, then grab the lower right corner of the application and drag the corner to the lower right corner of the screen. Not a pretty operation.

IMO it would not harm OS X's purity to incorporate valuable features from other operating systems; even the hated Windows.

 

[robbieduncan]

In OS X one has to catch the titlebar and drag the window's position to the upper left corner of the screen, then grab the lower right corner of the application and drag the corner to the lower right corner of the screen. Not a pretty operation.

Gaaaaaaaaaah!

That's not full screen: that's a maximised window. Please stop using one term when you mean the other.

 

[Nick T.]

LOL - - I was correcting my post and responding to you when you posted your complaint.

 

[robbieduncan]

LOL - - I was correcting my post and responding to you when you posted your complaint.

LOL indeed, but it's quite important. If you see my first post in this thread you'll see that I was making points about full-screen apps regarding the loss of the menu bar, difficulties with drag and drop etc. Had the OP said maximise I wouldn't have had to say that. But as the OP said full screen, not maximise I think we have to take him/her at their word: they want a button (blue) on every app that makes it take over the whole screen, removing the menu bar and dock, just like Aperture or Quicktime when they go full screen.

 

[Nick T.]

LOL indeed, but it's quite important. If you see my first post in this thread you'll see that I was making points about full-screen apps regarding the loss of the menu bar, difficulties with drag and drop etc. Had the OP said maximise I wouldn't have had to say that. But as the OP said full screen, not maximise I think we have to take him/her at their word: they want a button (blue) on every app that makes it take over the whole screen, removing the menu bar and dock, just like Aperture or Quicktime when they go full screen.

I was laughing at the situation - - both of us responding to the other at the same time. I apologize for not making that clear.

I totally agree with your insistence on using correct terms. Without them effective communication is unlikely.

 

[PlaceofDis]

really there is no need for a maximized window for most apps, unless you want just wasted space.

sure some apps could use it, but for the OS to handle it, a lot would have to be re-done and the UI would have to incorporate it better. if a certain app would be better maximized, write to the programmers and ask for a maximized option, or even a fullscreen option like fullscreen iphoto/aperture.

 

[IJ Reilly]

IMO it would not harm OS X's purity to incorporate valuable features from other operating systems; even the hated Windows.

It's not a matter of "purity," it's a question of whether it makes any sense within the UI scheme. The Microsoft method is related to the way Windows handles menus, attached to the top of every window, not to the top of the Desktop as on the Mac. Rather than emulate the old and frankly irrelevant Windows method on the Mac, I'd prefer if OSX handled resizing via the green widget more logically and consistently. If for instance I set the Safari window to the size I prefer, then click on the green widget twice, the window sizes down to seemingly arbitrary dimensions, then back to another one OSX thinks is right. Instead, it should snap back to my previous setting. Apple has never gotten this feature right, IMO.

 

[Nick T.]

really there is no need for a maximized window for most apps, unless you want just wasted space.

sure some apps could use it, but for the OS to handle it, a lot would have to be re-done and the UI would have to incorporate it better. if a certain app would be better maximized, write to the programmers and ask for a maximized option, or even a fullscreen option like fullscreen iphoto/aperture.

If a user wants to waste space, it should be his/her option to do so.

As an old-time systems programmer I must disagree with you about who is responsible for maximizing a window. That is most assuredly an operating system function.

An efficient OS should be consistent across all applications, otherwise the user ends up with chaos. OS X leaves the green button up to the application and its implementation certainly is chaotic.

 

[robbieduncan]

An efficient OS should be consistent across all applications, otherwise the user ends up with chaos. OS X leaves the green button up to the application and its implementation certainly is chaotic.

I agree 100% with that. The button looks the same on all windows but it's behaviour differs. This is not good. In fact it's against Apple's own HIG to have the same control do different things.

 

[jackc]

AFAIK, the lack of maximized windows in the best thing about the MacOS experience.

I'm going to tell people that when they ask if they should switch to Mac

 

[bankshot]

Reading this thread and all of the similar ones that came before, I get the feeling that if Apple computers couldn't use the letter "Q", we'd get fanboys claiming:

• There's really no need for it.
• That letter is for people who can't find synonyms without it.
• I haven't used that letter in years.
• The lack of that letter is the best thing about the MacOS experience.
• I don't understand folks who switch to OS X only to complain that it doesn't have that letter.

Now doesn't the above sound a little ridiculous in a very slightly altered context? It reminds me of Neutral Gamer's sig:

THE TRUE FANBOY, WHEN PRESENTED WITH GOOD NEWS ABOUT THEIR PRODUCT, WILL, INSTEAD OF PRAISING IT, ATTACK OTHERS.
Ask yourself, are YOU a fanboy?​

Contrary to the popular fanboy message, maximizing a window can be useful in some situations. Perhaps you never encounter those situations, but I certainly do. Any time I'm working in an application and having to refer to more data than fits on the screen, I can minimize my time spent uselessly scrolling back and forth by making the window as large as possible. Simple as that, there's a useful case that many people do encounter on a regular basis. In a way, it is about multitasking more efficiently, contrary to some of the attacks in this thread: instead of multitasking between different apps, you are multitasking by working on and referring to different pieces of data in the same application or document.

The green button is frustrating to many of us for reasons already stated in this thread: primarily that it is inconsistent across applications. The fact that maximizing a window is more of a hassle than it needs to be (reposition it in the upper left corner, drag the lower right corner to resize -- because none of the other corners do a resize operation) only adds to the frustration. It's not about being like Windows, it's about having all of the tools necessary to work efficiently on a wide variety of tasks with different requirements and workflows.

 

[-::ubermann::-]

I need it, i have a 13" screen

 

[skwij]

It would offend me, for one. People who like the way Windows works should use Windows. People who don't like Windows enough to Switch should not expect OSX to become Windows because they are to lazy to learn the least little thing about their new operating system.

Agreed.

If I ever am subjected to a Windows box, the "maximised" windows drive me absolutely bonkers. I find myself resizing downwards so I can actually get some work done.

Hard to believe I've only been on OS/X for a couple of years, and that it took me less than a month to come to prefer the way OS/X handles window sizing.

 

[motulist]

Full screen is VERY useful for some tasks no matter how big your screen is.

For instance many people get easily distracted when doing something that's boring or anxiety causing and it only takes the slightest distraction to get them to procrastinate. When I'm writing a boring report, the only way I can get it done is if I see only the text on screen and nothing else. Why do you think the program WriteRoom and other word processors full screen views exist? (and p.s. WriteRoom is in the macheist bundle at the moment.)

When I'm doing a task that I really don't want to do, all it takes for me to procrastinate (and many people like me) is something like noticing a file sitting on my desktop behind my word processor window . I'll see it and think to myself "oh I forgot I had that file sitting there, let me just put it into the correct folder. But wait, now I remember why I put it on my desktop, I wasn't sure if it was from day 1 or day 2 of those appointments. Let me just go through that file to figure out which day it was from so I can put it in the correct folder." And then I am completely off task.

Other similar distractions include accidentally moving the mouse to the side that unhides my dock, which creates a zillion distractions. For instance it might make me notice that my torrent program shows that one of the big files I was downloading in the background is now completed. Or if I accidentally click anywhere outside of my word processor window which will bring a different background program to the front and completely distract me. Even at best, accidentally clicking outside of my word processor window will switch the front program to the finder, which I'll then have to notice and then switch back to my word processor, which is a big break in mental processes and breaks up my word-based flow of thoughts.

And some programs have a lot of control palettes that are very easy to miss with your click because they have no border, and that'll switch your front program, and if you don't immediately notice that your front program has switched then you'll be racing along and have gone through several key commands before you notice that weird stuff is happening on screen that are not the actions that your key commands were supposed to invoke.

In summary, while content-sizing is fine and even preferable in many cases, there still is definitely a very strong need for many people to have true full screen windows. And this is coming from a long time hard core Mac user.

Just because Apple does something, that doesn't mean it's right.

 

[heatmiser]

Reading this thread and all of the similar ones that came before, I get the feeling that if Apple computers couldn't use the letter "Q", we'd get fanboys claiming:

• There's really no need for it.
• That letter is for people who can't find synonyms without it.
• I haven't used that letter in years.
• The lack of that letter is the best thing about the MacOS experience.
• I don't understand folks who switch to OS X only to complain that it doesn't have that letter.

Now doesn't the above sound a little ridiculous in a very slightly altered context? It reminds me of Neutral Gamer's sig:


Contrary to the popular fanboy message, maximizing a window can be useful in some situations. Perhaps you never encounter those situations, but I certainly do. Any time I'm working in an application and having to refer to more data than fits on the screen, I can minimize my time spent uselessly scrolling back and forth by making the window as large as possible. Simple as that, there's a useful case that many people do encounter on a regular basis. In a way, it is about multitasking more efficiently, contrary to some of the attacks in this thread: instead of multitasking between different apps, you are multitasking by working on and referring to different pieces of data in the same application or document.

The green button is frustrating to many of us for reasons already stated in this thread: primarily that it is inconsistent across applications. The fact that maximizing a window is more of a hassle than it needs to be (reposition it in the upper left corner, drag the lower right corner to resize -- because none of the other corners do a resize operation) only adds to the frustration. It's not about being like Windows, it's about having all of the tools necessary to work efficiently on a wide variety of tasks with different requirements and workflows.

Agreed on all counts. The AKB club (Apple Knows Best™) would cheer if Apple suddenly required the iSight to transmit images at random intervals to Apple headquarters. There'd be a chorus of people screaming loudly NOTHING TO FEAR MEANS NOTHING TO HIDE AMIRITE???

It's part of what makes the forums fun to read, though. I've never been on a computer site where so many were so unwilling to acknowledge imperfections in their software/hardware of choice.

Anyway, thankfully more and more programs are acknowledging the need for full-sizing, and a number of programs now include the option. Writeroom is one. Minefield (Firefox 3) is another.

 

[Nick T.]

All Mac users would benefit from reading this post again.

Reading this thread and all of the similar ones that came before, I get the feeling that if Apple computers couldn't use the letter "Q", we'd get fanboys claiming:

• There's really no need for it.
• That letter is for people who can't find synonyms without it.
• I haven't used that letter in years.
• The lack of that letter is the best thing about the MacOS experience.
• I don't understand folks who switch to OS X only to complain that it doesn't have that letter.

Now doesn't the above sound a little ridiculous in a very slightly altered context? It reminds me of Neutral Gamer's sig:

Contrary to the popular fanboy message, maximizing a window can be useful in some situations. Perhaps you never encounter those situations, but I certainly do. Any time I'm working in an application and having to refer to more data than fits on the screen, I can minimize my time spent uselessly scrolling back and forth by making the window as large as possible. Simple as that, there's a useful case that many people do encounter on a regular basis. In a way, it is about multitasking more efficiently, contrary to some of the attacks in this thread: instead of multitasking between different apps, you are multitasking by working on and referring to different pieces of data in the same application or document.

The green button is frustrating to many of us for reasons already stated in this thread: primarily that it is inconsistent across applications. The fact that maximizing a window is more of a hassle than it needs to be (reposition it in the upper left corner, drag the lower right corner to resize -- because none of the other corners do a resize operation) only adds to the frustration. It's not about being like Windows, it's about having all of the tools necessary to work efficiently on a wide variety of tasks with different requirements and workflows.

And this post also.

Full screen is VERY useful for some tasks no matter how big your screen is.

For instance many people get easily distracted when doing something that's boring or anxiety causing and it only takes the slightest distraction to get them to procrastinate. When I'm writing a boring report, the only way I can get it done is if I see only the text on screen and nothing else. Why do you think the program WriteRoom and other word processors full screen views exist? (and p.s. WriteRoom is in the macheist bundle at the moment.)
When I'm doing a task that I really don't want to do, all it takes for me to procrastinate (and many people like me) is something like noticing a file sitting on my desktop behind my word processor window . I'll see it and think to myself "oh I forgot I had that file sitting there, let me just put it into the correct folder. But wait, now I remember why I put it on my desktop, I wasn't sure if it was from day 1 or day 2 of those appointments. Let me just go through that file to figure out which day it was from so I can put it in the correct folder." And then I am completely off task.

Other similar distractions include accidentally moving the mouse to the side that unhides my dock, which creates a zillion distractions. For instance it might make me notice that my torrent program shows that one of the big files I was downloading in the background is now completed. Or if I accidentally click anywhere outside of my word processor window which will bring a different background program to the front and completely distract me. Even at best, accidentally clicking outside of my word processor window will switch the front program to the finder, which I'll then have to notice and then switch back to my word processor, which is a big break in mental processes and breaks up my word-based flow of thoughts.

And some programs have a lot of control palettes that are very easy to miss with your click because they have no border, and that'll switch your front program, and if you don't immediately notice that your front program has switched then you'll be racing along and have gone through several key commands before you notice that weird stuff is happening on screen that are not the actions that your key commands were supposed to invoke.

In summary, while content-sizing is fine and even preferable in many cases, there still is definitely a very strong need for many people to have true full screen windows. And this is coming from a long time hard core Mac user.

Just because Apple does something, that doesn't mean it's right.

It's people like bankshot and motulist that keep me from giving up on OS X altogether. Voices of sanity in are rare in Apple forums.

 

[Cromulent]

.
It's people like bankshot and motulist that keep me from giving up on OS X altogether. Voices of sanity in are rare in Apple forums.

You mean people with differing opinions to yourself would make you change OS? Wow... just wow.

 

[HLdan]

I've never been on a computer site where so many were so unwilling to acknowledge imperfections in their software/hardware of choice.

Anyway, thankfully more and more programs are acknowledging the need for full-sizing, and a number of programs now include the option. Writeroom is one. Minefield (Firefox 3) is another.

Okay so when you say people are "unwilling" to acknowledge imperfections in software/hardware you are basically saying people are unwilling to AGREE with the switchers complaints. The perception of what is actually imperfect is of personal choice.

As far as the maximized windows outside of Safari and iTunes name a program built-in on OS X that doesn't maximize with the green button that would actually benefit from maximizing?

 

[heatmiser]

Okay so when you say people are "unwilling" to acknowledge imperfections in software/hardware you are basically saying people are unwilling to AGREE with the switchers complaints.

Nah. I'm just referring to how so many here relentlessly defend Apple's decisions in lieu of considering such decisions from other perspectives. This doesn't mean agreeing with switchers. It simply means listening to varying opinions without declaring them irrelevant, or condescendingly implying people with different needs don't truly understand the operating system.

As far as the maximized windows outside of Safari and iTunes name a program built-in on OS X that doesn't maximize with the green button that would actually benefit from maximizing?

I don't have to. OS X isn't simply designed to run programs built into OS X; the overwhelming majority of programs an OS is designed to run are designed by 3rd parties. And there are many programs and types of applications out there that would benefit from the ability to easily full screen them. Two such types of apps are web browsers and word processors.

 

[Nick T.]

You mean people with differing opinions to yourself would make you change OS? Wow... just wow.

Not quite.

I’ve been a computer user since long before microcomputers were introduced. On microcomputers I’ve used (and programmed for) CP/M, Cromix, Micronix, MS-DOS, all versions of Windows, two or three versions of Linux, and OS X (no programming). In those almost 40 years I’ve never been attacked because of my preferred operating system - - except by Macintosh users. Back in the Apple II days the Apple users were generally more intelligent and better informed than the CP/M users, and were always helpful and informative. It was common for them to acknowledge that the 8080 was far superior to the 6502, and by the time that Apple switched to the 68000 it was too late. Things have certainly changed!

For the past year or so I’ve been running an Intel Mac mini side-by-side with a WinXP machine on an evaluation basis. I’ve even upgraded the RAM and HDD to make it more comparable to the XP box. So far the hardware has been excellent, although pretty difficult to upgrade compared to a standard desktop box. The software is another story however.

Many applications are poorly done, and the operating system is a mixed bag; the Unix kernel is excellent as is it’s command line interface, but the GUI has a number of shortcomings. For example: the “green button” and the Trash are trash. It also has some strengths, such as its Search capabilities.

I can easily live with the shortcomings, but when I walk into an Apple Store or post on an Apple forum with a problem there is almost without exception an overwhelming babble of Mac fanatics that have completely lost touch with reality. That makes it pretty difficult to get useful technical assistance, and without a support group learning the inner depths of any OS is very difficult.

I’ve been relying on David Pogue’s Missing Manual series of OS X books. But now I’m starting to find inaccuracies, and most of them seem to be based in Pogue’s fanboi attitude about Macs.

At this point I would not stop using Windows (on a Windows box, not Bootcamp) for a number of reasons. I’ll continue playing with the mini, hoping for some unlikely improvements in the operating system. I’ll not buy a MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, or iMac - - the hardware is just too limiting compared to what is available as “standard” PCs.

 

[heatmiser]

At this point I would not stop using Windows (on a Windows box, not Bootcamp) for a number of reasons. I’ll continue playing with the mini, hoping for some unlikely improvements in the operating system. I’ll not buy a MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, or iMac - - the hardware is just too limiting compared to what is available as “standard” PCs.

Agreed. Hardware deficiencies far outweigh the limitations of the operating system. The lack of a reasonably priced and reasonably powered tower is one reason why I won't consider an Apple desktop. Secondly, the fact that Apple doesn't offer anything better than 1280x800 for anything less than two grand is why my next laptop will certainly be something other than an Apple. There are too many trade-offs to justify my spending more for less in this market.

 

[Nick T.]

Okay so when you say people are "unwilling" to acknowledge imperfections in software/hardware you are basically saying people are unwilling to AGREE with the switchers complaints. The perception of what is actually imperfect is of personal choice.

HLDan - - You come as close as any one to exemplifying the close minded attitude that is so common among Mac fanbois! I wonder how many real dollars you have cost Apple by driving customers away from Macs.

You seem to justify OS X’s shortcomings by saying that complaints are a matter of personal preference or personal choice. My personal preference is that whatever OS I’m using provides an efficient working environment. Is that asking too much?

The are some things that are better implemented in OS X; there are some things that are better implemented in Windows.

 

[motulist]

Okay so when you say people are "unwilling" to acknowledge imperfections in software/hardware you are basically saying people are unwilling to AGREE with the switchers complaints.

What a total ad hominem argument. I'm hardly a switcher and I have the same complaint.

The perception of what is actually imperfect is of personal choice.

Exactly, so why are you telling the many people who hold this opinion that their personal choice is not valid? OS X is great and miles better than any other OS I've used, but it is far from perfect. And even though there shouldn't be options do everything under the sun because this would lead to clutter and disorganization, for such a strongly desired feature that has very powerful well-reasoned arguments in its favor, there really ought to be at least an option to enable that feature.

As far as the maximized windows outside of Safari and iTunes name a program built-in on OS X that doesn't maximize with the green button that would actually benefit from maximizing?

See my previous comment quoted in the first comment on this page, I spell out many situations where a maximize feature is critical.

 

[HLdan]

In those almost 40 years I’ve never been attacked because of my preferred operating system - - except by Macintosh users.

I can easily live with the shortcomings, but when I walk into an Apple Store or post on an Apple forum with a problem there is almost without exception an overwhelming babble of Mac fanatics that have completely lost touch with reality. That makes it pretty difficult to get useful technical assistance, and without a support group learning the inner depths of any OS is very difficult.

I'm going to address what you said because what I've noticed with people running Windows or the so-called switchers is they have a short memory of how rudely they have treated Mac users in the past as well as the present.

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this:

3+ years ago if a Mac user walked into a coffee shop they would get the evil eye by PC users as if the Mac user had the plague and had no right showing their face in public with a Mac. That sort of smugness has greatly put Mac users on the defense.

Secondly this superiority attitude with Windows users needs to stop, it's how Windows users constantly and I mean constantly put down the Mac community for having the smallest marketshare and it just shows how the Windows community reminds the Mac community that they think they are more superior.

Here comes a switcher that is happy about getting a new Mac but has things he doesn't like about it but rather than make useful suggestions to truly improve the OS they want the Mac OS to run like the Windows OS that they just dumped in favor of the Mac. It never stops, they only want to rant about the Mac OS not doing what Windows can.
Honestly it needs to be a worthwhile suggestion rather than, " I wah wah want it like Windows."