Why I'm switching to PC after 17 years of being on a Mac

[Restlesslegs]

I'll say this on behalf of the majority of users, not necessarily you or MR members. The design is what the mass market wants in a portable computer. Small and light are keys to portability.

This is a very interesting statement (and very relevant to the discussion) - and somehow it drills down to the core of the problem, I think. Because either you got something fundamentally wrong - or Apple (and I believe it's Apple).

A "pro" machine could not be further away from a "mass market device". It is supposed to be a specialised tool which is highly flexible (ports), powerful (cpu und gpu) and comes with great battery life.

But then again I guess you're absolutely right - this is a mass market device, not a pro device, because Apple is no longer interested in this fringe group. Same with the ipad pro, it is simply a marketing badge to differentiate product lines. At one point I was sure the guy who designed the box for the new MBP made a terrible mistake and originally they were supposed to print "MacBook Air 15" on them... This is what the new device is for me. And this is the new reality (and a reality which makes sense from a financial perspective, I guess). Let's face it - "people like us" (I have been using Macs since 1992 and make my money with them) are no longer important.

Oh, and speaking of money - I have a 20 year background in advertising, communication and brand development. Dropping the backlit Apple is the dumbest decision you could have made... Just my opinion.

 

[johannnn]

I understand YOUR line of reasoning. But the slimmer design(puke), removal of ports(double puke), improved display, "improved" keyboard, improved trackpad, etc... are equivalent to prior model's price increases. But NOW we have an iWatch built into the MBP as well. THAT is not going to come down in price as much as these other changes will. Sorry, expect ANY Mac with this tool bar to remain higher price than normal.

Even if that is the case, you can still buy the MBP without it.

 

[thesaint024]

This is a very interesting statement (and very relevant to the discussion) - and somehow it drills down to the core of the problem, I think. Because either you got something fundamentally wrong - or Apple (and I believe it's Apple).

A "pro" machine could not be further away from a "mass market device". It is supposed to be a specialised tool which is highly flexible (ports), powerful (cpu und gpu) and comes with great battery life.

But then again I guess you're absolutely right - this is a mass market device, not a pro device, because Apple is no longer interested in this fringe group. Same with the ipad pro, it is simply a marketing badge to differentiate product lines. At one point I was sure the guy who designed the box for the new MBP made a terrible mistake and originally they were supposed to print "MacBook Air 15" on them... This is what the new device is for me. And this is the new reality (and a reality which makes sense from a financial perspective, I guess). Let's face it - "people like us" (I have been using Macs since 1992 and make my money with them) are no longer important.

Oh, and speaking of money - I have a 20 year background in advertising, communication and brand development. Dropping the backlit Apple is the dumbest decision you could have made... Just my opinion.

Take it easy, you sound like a jilted lover. You guys are all taking this very personally. Apple is making devices that will sell the best for their main demographic. Mass market may not be quite as accurate as main demographic since these devices obviously are on the higher end of the price spectrum.

I personally don't agree that this is no longer a "pro" machine. I think you and the anti-MBP crowd have different perspective on what a "pro" machine should be. You all seem to want mobile workstations, battery and size be damned. The thin and light strategy that you all hate so much is kind of what traveling, mobile "pros" seem to want. This obviously doesn't satisfy all since you guys are so vocal about another direction.

Regarding CPU's, technology just isn't moving as fast lately since intel and other chip makers are focusing on same speeds at cooler temps and lower power draw. I wasn't expecting huge leaps in raw speed since we all know what intel is doing. I can't speak to the GPU since it's a non-factor personally. Many others have chimed in on the choice of GPU for the 15". Honestly, they probably don't make a "real" MBP (as defined by you) because they wouldn't sell many of them. Of all of the software engineers I work with, I believe only one has a PC like that. The others all seem to use MBP's or lower power, "mainstream" laptops. I'm not one of them, so I don't really know how they use them, but it's just one anecdotal sample for you.

At the end of the day, this is a laptop. It's meant to be carried around and last for hours on battery. It's not meant to replace a desktop workstation or fill every possible desktop need. It's priority is mobility. I think Apple is very clear on their product lines and each of their purpose. It is intuitive to me. When I go looking for a laptop, I'm not looking for a behemoth speed machine. I'm looking for mobility and good enough to do things on the fly. Since I dock on a desktop, I like that I can use it at full, unthrottled speeds. On the go, low power, slower speeds. This makes perfect sense. A franken-machine with 10 various, inflexible ports and 3 hour battery don't make much sense for a mobile computer to me. People who need massive power usually find it more practical to do what they need on a desktop, without the power and heat constraints that laptops are designed for. You seem to be looking for a machine in between the behemoth I describe and the new MBP, but again, I don't think those would sell very well. IMHO.

Again, I'm just trying to interpret the logic behind the design choices. They don't fit everyone's needs clearly. I don't know that Apple ever designed laptops for your "fringe" group, the past computers' technology may have just fit your needs at the time. More on the logo, I never liked the glowing logo. But it never stopped me from buying the MBP before, because in the end, who gives a s**t.

 

[therealseebs]

Even if that is the case, you can still buy the MBP without it.

Well, sort of. You can buy a 13" model with very low specs, or a year and a half old model, without the touchbar. You can't get a high-end MBP without the touchbar.
[doublepost=1481658167][/doublepost]

Agree with much you are saying, I just think you should compare Apple`s to well Apple`s and I agree that the 2016 is the best portable Mac yet for anyone considering using for the likes of 3D gaming.

I think I would rather compare Apple's product lineup to competing products, not just to their own. And I think you may be right about that, but if so, that's pretty damning, because the machine is pretty bad for 3D gaming, but then, it's true that they've never released a laptop which actually had a reasonable GPU and enough power for it, so.

 

[Queen6]

I think I would rather compare Apple's product lineup to competing products, not just to their own. And I think you may be right about that, but if so, that's pretty damning, because the machine is pretty bad for 3D gaming, but then, it's true that they've never released a laptop which actually had a reasonable GPU and enough power for it, so.

Once you put the 2016 up against the PC OEM completion it starts to become far less attractive. They are nice notebooks no debated needed, however they also represent very poor value to the average user, unless they have no concerns on the pricing. We should be pushing forward with technology, not marking time for the sake of an aesthetic.

MBP has never been gaming orientated, however it`s supposed to be orientated for some specific usage, one would think Adobe`s Premier being one...

The disparity in performance here is a joke for a premium product, with the trade off`s for being thiner easily apparent. I know I for one would prefer twice the performance over saving 1/8" (3mm). Same stands for the battery life, it will likely Apple past the Kaby Lake release to deliver solid numbers again. Apple is on a path of ever diminishing returns, albeit a very lucrative one.

Personally am considering a VR ready portable, it will absolutely not be a Mac, as Apple is seemingly incapable of producing a machine able enough...

Q-6

 

[Count Blah]

Even if that is the case, you can still buy the MBP without it.

Not a 15"

 

[leman]

A "pro" machine could not be further away from a "mass market device". It is supposed to be a specialised tool which is highly flexible (ports), powerful (cpu und gpu) and comes with great battery life.

Well, MacBook Pro was always a mass market device. I find it weird that a simple part of the brand naming could be this confusing. If you follow its development, you would easily see that its entire design legacy is agains specialisation. The MBP is about adaptability and versatility (and that is why its strives to find the optimal balance between portability, battery and performance, in a way that no other laptop really achieves). I guess the only real 'specialisation' of the MBP has been this certain 'premiumness'.

Once you put the 2016 up against the PC OEM completion it starts to become far less attractive.

And yet the competition makes their own design compromises. The Surface line sacrifices CPU performance for the sake of portability. The Dell XPS sacrifices battery for the sake of being, not really sure what, cheaper I guess?

The disparity in performance here is a joke for a premium product, with the trade off`s for being thiner easily apparent. I know would prefer twice the performance over saving 1/8" (3mm).

And as I have pointed out in my previous post, this performance disparity only exists because the software developer in question does not have a proper implementation for OpenCL/Metal. Most likely the CUDA path accelerates many more workflow elements, while the OpenCL/Metal ones are just used to accelerate an odd thing here and there. Can't really blame the laptop on developer's lack of effort. Look at Final Cut performance for what is possible with the MBP's hardware.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Well, MacBook Pro was always a mass market device. I find it weird that a simple part of the brand naming could be this confusing. If you follow its development, you would easily see that its entire design legacy is agains specialisation. The MBP is about adaptability and versatility (and that is why its , in a way that no other laptop really achieves). I guess the only real 'specialisation' of the MBP has been this certain 'premiumness'.

Yes I agree Apple products are mass produced for mass markets and assembled on a factory line like many other products.

Premium is only a reflection of the cost of components used, bundled services and sale price, it's not like they are crafted in a workshop in Switzerland for example.

One could say you have specialised by buying a MAC and picking a restrictive OS and ECO or engaged in some exclusive specialisation due to the premium price, but that would be splitting hairs.

Whilst all OEM's strive to find the optimal balance between portability, battery and performance you omitted cost and the your targeted demographic.

As for adaptability and versatility it's self evident that the new MBP has narrowed this band and its these grievances rightly or wrongly we see echoed.

The sentiment felt by those that feel they bought in to some family or ECO or brand loyalty is real and extensive and to not understand this is the real weird thing. Its is easy to be dismissive when your not affected.

Personally I have no loyalty to Apple or MS but that does not mean I do not sympathise with those that made both financial and conscious decisions to stick with Apple for numerous reasons over the years. Apple would not be where it is today without these users/owners.

 

[Queen6]

And yet the competition makes their own design compromises. The Surface line sacrifices CPU performance for the sake of portability. The Dell XPS sacrifices battery for the sake of being, not really sure what, cheaper I guess?

Surface Book is pitched against the 13" MBP, not the 15" with performance levels being pretty much equal, exceeding once the dGPU is thrown into the equation, given I own both. 2016 MBP brings faster SSD and P3 gamut display. Surface Book 2 will very likely bring 10 Nvidia graphics to the table and other surprises. Personally I am planning to purchase one, another lost sale for Apple. 2016 13" MBP doesn't even come close, as long as you can work in Microsofts OS.

Dell already has it`s 13" XPS out on Kaby Lake with the 15" XPS in the wings, personally I have no real hands on experience so I don't comment either way. Kaby Lake offers just minimal improvement on CPU, with again the focus being power consumption & integrated graphics. The XPS 15" obvious advantage for those that need, is expandability with both SSD & RAM user configurable, yet still in a very portable package. The XPS is universally praised, it may not be produced to the same exacting standards as the new 15" MBP equally it`s up to scratch, with the MBP now in the same boat for battery runtime of the sake of 3mm (1/8").

MBP is already behind the curve on the GPU side, by the summer of next year ever more so, with even some budget OEM`s offering 1050 dGPU`s. Like I have said for a long time the "thinner" thing is over. I don't know anyone who wants to sacrifice performance & battery runtime on a high performance professional level notebook, who is actually relying on one for a living. Same as myself many have been and still are long time Mac users, yet they are now looking elsewhere. Same the price does not intimidate, however the value is lacking, a comment echoed by many.

And as I have pointed out in my previous post, this performance disparity only exists because the software developer in question does not have a proper implementation for OpenCL/Metal. Most likely the CUDA path accelerates many more workflow elements, while the OpenCL/Metal ones are just used to accelerate an odd thing here and there. Can't really blame the laptop on developer's lack of effort. Look at Final Cut performance for what is possible with the MBP's hardware.

Very likely a conscious business decision, as developing such high level SW has it`s costs, and after all Apple is hardly insentivising them to do so, given the continuous retreat from the sector, so you really can't blame the developer for not supporting the platform...

As I have stated the MBP is becoming less useful as a tool, step outside of Apple`s highly optimised bubble and other systems can be significantly faster, at very least fast enough for the users needs and offer far greater value, the good is they look great. You continuously praise Apple, yet seemingly disregard literally thousand of post`s and concerns by longterm MR members & Mac users. Personally we as Apple users and customers of their premium computing solutions deserve far more than what is currently being delivered.

Q-6

 

[leman]

Premium is only a reflection of the cost of components used, bundled services and sale price, it's not like they are crafted in a workshop in Switzerland for example.

What I mean by "premiumnes" is that processes and components used by Apple are often something special. Like take the aluminium extrusion thing for the Mac Pro, or the unibody enclosure (which was a very new thing back then), or the more expensive display aspect ratios, or die-thinned custom GPUs etc.

As for adaptability and versatility it's self evident that the new MBP has narrowed this band and its these grievances rightly or wrongly we see echoed.

Well, the thunderbolt 3 makes it the most adaptable and versatile laptop on the market. Admittedly, the peripheral market is not what it should be still, but its a matter of time. But you can do things with this laptop that you can't do with any other (like connecting a server worth of storage units + multiple external monitors if needs to be). Don't forget that you have 16 PCI-E 3.0 lanes in total to connect your devices too. No other laptop and not many desktops offer that.

Personally I have no loyalty to Apple or MS but that does not mean I do not sympathise with those that made both financial and conscious decisions to stick with Apple for numerous reasons over the years. Apple would not be where it is today without these users/owners.

That is very true. Its a very difficult situation to balance. Apple however always was very progressive in its decisions — here, I am not using the term 'progressive' in any kind of commendatory meaning, simply referring to the fact that Apple usually opts for breaking changes that adopt new tech, in contrast to more conservative approach as seen by MS and others, who put much more value on backwards compatibility. If stability and backwards compatibility is a main goal, Apple was always a wrong brand to go with. But I certainly understand what you are saying and I agree that this is putting unnecessary inconvenience on many users who just want to get things done.

Just to rant a bit (as I like to), I believe that Apple is also trying to address these later issues with what they have been doing lately. On the hardware side, USB-C and TB3 are an attempt to finally solve the connectivity issue. Yes, right now there are still inconveniences, but few years from now, when USB-C is the main connector on the market, the MBP will be the first computer ever to have embraced the new standard, while computers with legacy connectors will be stuck with oversized ports without any functionality. On the software side, Apple has made a number of steps that ensure long-term software quality. First one is Swift, which will allow one to build more stable and future-proof applications. For example, one of Swift design goals (albeit not yet implemented AFAIK) is resilience and library versioning which among other things allows one to formalise API changes in a way that supports very high runtime performance. Another one is rootless, which prevents third-party from hacking the system components (something which was very popular in OS X, which leads to number of breaking issues when the system is updated etc.).

 

[SteveJUAE]

What I mean by "premiumnes" is that processes and components used by Apple are often something special. Like take the aluminium extrusion thing for the Mac Pro, or the unibody enclosure (which was a very new thing back then), or the more expensive display aspect ratios, or die-thinned custom GPUs etc.

Well, the thunderbolt 3 makes it the most adaptable and versatile laptop on the market. Admittedly, the peripheral market is not what it should be still, but its a matter of time. But you can do things with this laptop that you can't do with any other (like connecting a server worth of storage units + multiple external monitors if needs to be). Don't forget that you have 16 PCI-E 3.0 lanes in total to connect your devices too. No other laptop and not many desktops offer that.

That is very true. Its a very difficult situation to balance. Apple however always was very progressive in its decisions — here, I am not using the term 'progressive' in any kind of commendatory meaning, simply referring to the fact that Apple usually opts for breaking changes that adopt new tech, in contrast to more conservative approach as seen by MS and others, who put much more value on backwards compatibility. If stability and backwards compatibility is a main goal, Apple was always a wrong brand to go with. But I certainly understand what you are saying and I agree that this is putting unnecessary inconvenience on many users who just want to get things done.

Just to rant a bit (as I like to), I believe that Apple is also trying to address these later issues with what they have been doing lately. On the hardware side, USB-C and TB3 are an attempt to finally solve the connectivity issue. Yes, right now there are still inconveniences, but few years from now, when USB-C is the main connector on the market, the MBP will be the first computer ever to have embraced the new standard, while computers with legacy connectors will be stuck with oversized ports without any functionality. On the software side, Apple has made a number of steps that ensure long-term software quality. First one is Swift, which will allow one to build more stable and future-proof applications. For example, one of Swift design goals (albeit not yet implemented AFAIK) is resilience and library versioning which among other things allows one to formalise API changes in a way that supports very high runtime performance. Another one is rootless, which prevents third-party from hacking the system components (something which was very popular in OS X, which leads to number of breaking issues when the system is updated etc.).

Thanks for your enthusiasm as you know I have been told I'm a little Apple cynical

Whilst Apple may have had a slightly longer reputation for some nice design touches than some, but not all OEM's they are not hitting many wow factors, maybe simple as it's limited to improvements of clamshell formats only, but otherwise I guess they are improving where they think it counts however there seems not general acceptance of the touch bar and KB.

I don't think Apple is unique to TB3 according to this http://www.ultrabookreview.com/10579-laptops-thunderbolt-3/ as of a few days back there were over 50 laptop/portables although the MBP 15 does have 4 of them.

Going with my own experience of just USB-C dongles over the last year with 2 MacBook's and 1 Samsung device it's not all plain sailing and I was surprised how often I ran in to connectivity issues and all dongle`s are not equal and I only have OEM ones no amazon clones.

So best of luck with TB3 if you recall when USB 1st came out and the promise of daisy chaining 15 devices LOL

Funny my take on MS backward compatibility is admirable and shows commitment to both new and old and recently took advantage of it to breath new life in to an old 2007 Sony TP1 Biscuit tin media device we use just for streaming, the operation was flawless and no searching for drivers from Sony at all.

I also like where MS is going with one OS or apps across all platforms and devices some parts are not as smooth as Apple (yet) but others are simply smarter including the ones that embrace touch and pen input and the best part they are available to all and you do not have to invest in same branded devices to take advantage ie IPhone/IOS is not excluded from the party

I must say I was surprised that the new MBP was trimmed down in terms of battery as it was one feature every other laptop had trouble competing with but personally it's not a deal breaker as any high-end device I use is never far from a socket but many that claimed bragging rights for Apple endurance along with magsafe are sure red faced now