Why is apple sooo greedy?

[youradhere4222]

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how I can legally run OS X on non-Apple platforms.

Dude, it's an operating system.

In the end, they're not Mac OS X or Windows Vista, it's an operating system. Seriously, there are so many logical fallacies in your arguments.

Look at it this way, is Starbucks a monopoly because they sell Starbucks coffee? Is HP a monopoly because they're the only distributor of HP laptops?

Nope.

 

[katejones]

windows has updated and needs restart, restart now or in 5 minutes?

 

[vansouza]

So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

How are you enjoying OS X; oh wait you aren't.

 

[macenforcer]

Some of these arguments are just hilarious. The bottom line is apple is charging twice as much for its hardware. Its a ripoff. They are no longer inovative. They have not done anything cool or useful in yrs. Where is the verizon or att wan? Where is the blu-ray (yes lenovo offers bluray on R series), where is dock port? No office or business person will EVER buy a mac because of this problem alone. You appeasers can blah blah all you want about supply and demand but the reason apple sells less than lenovo is becuase there are smart consumers out there and they are not buying apple. Apple needs a realty check, then they will start to move forward.

 

[makasin]

I think Apple's computers, like the MacBook Pro, are great systems and reflect the way they design the OS. The reason why they don't have a dock and bluray(which isnt even THAT immediately important, for me at least) is because they beleive in simplicity and elegance. Look at the MBP for example. Its made of all aluminum, on the underside there arent any fans/plastic peices/and dock connections. This is done because Mac users dont really need it. They designed the computer so that you can put in on your bed for example without worrying about it freaking out coz the fan is clogged. Plus, with the advent of USB, I dont really see the point of having a dock connector. How about I just plug in my USB hub that has everything I need at home attached to it? Isnt that like a dock connector? And if I've got an external monitor, Ive got a full-blown DVI port that I can convert to VGA, S-Video or Composite using an adapter, which BTW is much easier to lug around than a huge peice of plastic dock. I believe that Apple designs things for a reason. Docks aren't the most useful things anymore. Sure they were when computers didn't have many connections and the connections that they did have were huge ugly parallel ports and such, but with firewire and usb, I dont see it as a REQUIREMENT.

Plus, what makes you think Apple is targeting the business user anyways?
Its targetting the professional who likes to do things at home and on the go.
I'm an electrical engineering student, and Ive used this computer everywhere I go. I havent seen a single Windows notebook that has 5 hours of battery life without being extremely crippled spec-wise. Maybe things have changed, but I've been a windows fanboy up until last year and had many computers and haven't heard a single report from anyone saying that their battery lasts more than two hours. And why is that? Its not like the hardware is so drastically different. Its just that Apple's OSX is a closed platform, so they can focus on each computer THEY design and are able to squeeze out as much performance and battery life as possible, using either hardware or software schemes. I'd love to see a Dell run for more than 3 hours on a stock (not 12 Cell 50lb extended battery) battery.

 

[saltyzoo]

I carry two laptops in my bag every day. One is my MBP and the other is my works T61. I have to take the T61 home every day to be able to VPN to the office to do support when needed.

I have yet to ever consider using the T61 at home except for using VPN to work when forced too. I can't fathom voluntarily doing it.

The MBP is lighter, thinner, faster (damn the specs, reality is reality), and more flexible (unix is much more useful to me than 10 billion windows applications).

Oh, and the dock port? What the heck is the point in that. Am I too lazy to plug 3 whole things in every morning, just so I can have half the apps crash when I wake up the machine when it's not in it's port? Not really.


But, to each his own. Enjoy.

 

[lauph]

I carry two laptops in my bag every day. One is my MBP and the other is my works T61. I have to take the T61 home every day to be able to VPN to the office to do support when needed.

Im quite sure MBPs can do VPN...

 

[saltyzoo]

Im quite sure MBPs can do VPN...

Of course they can. Unfortunately, I'm also quite sure I'd be fired if I got caught doing it from a non-corporate laptop. Not saying it makes sense, but for security reasons they take it very seriously. Via that VPN I have access to a large database of banking records.

 

[vansouza]

Docks

Why does Apple have to make them?? Third party players make docks already Apple does not have to be the one who makes something for a solution to exist. If you need a dock you can have one now that it is mentioned here, I think I will order one for my work desk. Thanks..

 

[ssteve]

...$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

It sounds like you are happy with your purchase. I want to tell you that I am happy that you are happy. BTW Thanks for letting me know what is available in non-Apple computers.

 

[trip1ex]

Maybe by the 8th page of posting, someone could kindly provide some benchmarks of the two systems processing the same task! =D

I have the odd feeling the original post was trying to justify the price difference by a hardware assessment, not OS stability and not anesthetics . So telling him one of those things makes the macbook pro "better" is contrary to what is being discussed.

So here's my shot at it, to give a better comparison between the two (because saying "i dont need dedicated graphics" equates to "i dont need a macbook pro level of apple" anyway). Ill be using the of a T61P built as close to the macbook pro as possible.

CPU:
T61P: Intel Core 2 Duo processor T9300 (2.5GHz 800MHz 6MBL2Cache)
MBP: Intel Core 2 Duo processor T9300 (2.5GHz 800MHz 6MBL2Cache)
Verdict: The Same (the same thing, self-explanatory)

Memory:
T61P: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
MBP: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)

Hard Drive:
T61P: 250GB Serial ATA Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm
MBP: 250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)
Display:
T61P: 15.4 WSXGA+ TFT (Max. Resolution 1680x1050)
MBP: 15.4 WSXGA LED (Max. Resolution 1440x900)
Verdict: T61P (while the Macbook Pro does have a newer, LED-style display, since 1440x900 WSXGA laptops fit in 14.1" laptops, that is not enough to justify the loss of resolution. Of course, resolution is once again, personal preference, but I am under the assumption you want the highest level of resolution. If you cant read 1690x1050 at 15.4", that's your problem, not the computer's)

System Graphics:
T61P: NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (256MB DDR3) Nvidia Specifications Chart
MBP: NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT (512MB DDR3) Nvidia Specifications Chart
Verdict: MBP (for the moment) (while the specification links are general specifications, as graphics cards will vary from model to model, unless someone can provide me with information such as Memory bandwidth information, or Max resolution output, I can only award this to the macbook pro with the higher allocation of dedicated memory)

Optical Device
T61P: DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim
MBP: 8x Double-layer SuperDrive
Verdict: The Same (Both 8X dual layer dvd writers which I could not find sufficient problems in for either product via google)

Wireless Card
T61P: Intel Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN (802.11n)
MBP: Airport Extreme (802.11n)
Verdict: The Same (different manufacturers, although I could not find any reason why one network card outperformed the other, and there are too many variables to determine this, so they are again, at a tie)

Bluetooth
T61P: Integrated Bluetooth PAN
MBP: Integrated Bluetooth
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)

Touchpad
T61P: Standard Ultranav single-point contact touchpad + trackpad
MBP: Multitouch touchpad
Verdict: MBP (one of the not so price-significant advantages of the MBP, though is a highlight hardware-wise nonetheless)

Aux. Ports
T61P: 3USB, 1Firewire 400, 1 Modem, 1 Ethernet, 1 PCMCIA/Express slot
MBP: 2USB, 1Firewire 400, 1 Firewire 800, 1 Ethernet, 1 Express slot
Verdict: The Same (Firewire 800? PCMCIA? 1 more USB? justifies nothing, really)

Weight
T61P: 5.9lbs (via google searches)
MBP: 5.4lbs (via apple official specifications)
Verdict: MBP (no one wants the heavier laptop, right? unless you're preparing for an expected robbery and will be smashing them with it)

Actual Prices
T61P: $1479.75
MBP: $2,499.00

Price Difference: 1019.25 (for the T61P)
So needless to say, in terms of Hardware you would be saving $1019.25 USD. Which OS to use? Which one is Anesthetically more appealing? That's a preference call. Apples or Oranges much? =)

Great comparison, but obviously not the best one for Apple. The MBP model above the entry model is a money grab for Apple no doubt. It's much like the black Macbook.

Go down to the entry level MBP and you'll see a much better comparison.

Also there's many things you missed.

The MBP has a slot loading disc player. MUch nicer and more expensive part.

The all-aluminum build of the MBP is much nicer than black plastic and more expensive.

The weight of the Thinkpad is probably more than you stated because, afaik, you don't get exact weights on Lenovo's site only the minimum starting weight.

One reason the MBP has so much power in a small form factor is because it uses Lithium Polymer batteries which are more expensive than what the competition uses which are Lithium ion batteries.

The 570 vid card is based on a 8600GTM as afaik. I don't think it's as nice for gaming or as fast though. (edit: I think one difference is 256-bit memory interface on the 8600, 128-bit on the 570.)

You don't take into account the back-lit keyboard.

I'd be surprised if the MBP didn't have better speakers and a better sound chip also.

The MBP is also built to drive 2 external monitors of the 30" size. Is that true of the Thinkpad?

Firewire 800 is a more expensive feature than an extra USB port. If you need access to external drives for hi-end video work or something like that than you'll want that faster port.

I would also speculate that the MBP monitor is much nicer. And afaik the LED monitors are more expensive and I bet the panel is a nicer one than in the Lenovo. This may not seem important, but it really is if you're doing a cost comparison.

I'm not trying to say MBP's aren't expensive laptops, but there are some more reasons than meets the eye as to why they cost more than a Thinkpad.

And as with most things it costs a lot more to get that last or extra 10% than the first 90%.

 

[ju5tin81]

I don't think Apple is nearly as greedy as you would make them out to be. Sure, their margins tend to be higher than other computer manufacturers, around 30% they usually state in their financials. But if you think they can manufacture the $2500 MacBook Pro, sell it for $1200 and still make any profit, I think you're wrong. A 30% margin means it costs them about $1923 to manufacture that MBP they sell for $2500. And that $1200 Thinkpad is not the SAME computer.

And I've said it before, so I'll just link to my previous post again: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/4542947/

You must admit though, suddenly pulling the £9 remote, which will hinder the Front Row experience immensely, for the sake of £9, on a multimedia machine that's £1299 is very 'cheap' of Apple.

How long before software restore disks become an add-on? Very 'budget' PC approach. Apple's all about the experience, but it's potentially harming a successful lines 'luxury' experience for the sake of £9. Front row is surely one of the selling points...

In store demos it'll for ever be "Hey look at this, but oh yeah, the remotes an extra""

 

[Apogee]

The all-aluminum build of the MBP is much nicer than black plastic and more expensive.

Erm, thinkpads are not made from plastic at all. Instead they are made with some form of titanium composite that is coated in a polymer. It is very space age materials used in its construction really.

To give credit where it is due at least with a Thinkpad I can afford to *drop* it without even giving a thought about it getting a dent or a scratch. Indeed in campus demonstrations Thinkpads are thrown and smashed against walls to prove their durability.

 

[trip1ex]

Erm, thinkpads are not made from plastic at all. Instead they are made with some form of titanium composite that is coated in a polymer. It is very space age materials used in its construction really.

To give credit where it is due at least with a Thinkpad I can afford to *drop* it without even giving a thought about it getting a dent or a scratch. Indeed in campus demonstrations Thinkpads are thrown and smashed against walls to prove their durability.

Some Thinkpads feature "Magnesium, carbon fiber reinforced plastic or titanium composite cases"

Composite being a keyword there too. Anyway no one said Thinkpads weren't tough, but they aren't using alumuminum which I believe is a much more expensive material to use in laptops. I could be wrong. Maybe Apple is fooling me there.

 

[Joko]

ok can we please stop reviving this pointless thread.

 

[saltyzoo]

ok can we please stop reviving this pointless thread.

You first!

 

[macenforcer]

The reason why they don't have a dock and bluray(which isnt even THAT immediately important, for me at least) is because they beleive in simplicity and elegance.

Love how people rationalize lack of features as simplicity and elegance. LMFAO!

 

[burningrave101]

I'd love to see a Dell run for more than 3 hours on a stock (not 12 Cell 50lb extended battery) battery.

3 hours should be fairly easily attainable on a stock 6 cell battery on something like the XPS m1330 with LED-backlit display. The 9 cell battery lasts upwards of 4-5+ hours. Neither one are very heavy.

 

[e12a]

just for the sake of argument, rearding that relatively well put together comparison between a T61 and (high end) MBP,

someone else mentioned you forgot sound. Yes, I dont think the Lenovo has digital optical audio (although limited) and optical input. MBP wins in the sound department. That can be a deal breaker for some.

There are good deals on computers out there. Apple does not have to be one of those companies--no one is forcing you to buy a Mac. If you like an IBM, go for it. If you want a good deal on a MBP get last generation's or a refurb.

At work we have a 15.4" dell latitude laptop that is huge. probably 1.5x thicker than my MBP next to it. But it does have a nice 1680 x *** screen which I was pleasantly surprised to find. Unfortunately the chip that powers the nice screen was a simple Intel GMA chipset.

 

[macgroovy]

OS X can handle all ram but needs 3gb to run properly.

I'm wondering why you say the MBP needs 3GB to run OS X properly?? What do you mean by that? I have the stock standard 2GB and things seems to fly pretty fast. Not doubting you, just curious.

 

[TimeWaster101]

I don't know you, and haven't been on this forum long enough to know whether or not you are being sarcastic with your post. Looking at the comparison from the poster I replied to, I realized one more useful tidbit in the volume/profit reasoning. I shouldn't have missed it before, but I have been up for the better part of 20 hours traveling for work.

When you look at the video cards that were posted in the comparison, the one glaring thing that stands out, is the difference in dedicated memory. This is most definitely attributed to the needs of Lenovo's major line of business... Corporate America! Any company that needs to order tons of machines will gladly sacrifice resolution and VRAM, for more HD space and RAM. Even at that, I regulary have customers who have to upgrade the RAM in the "spec machines" they buy.

Apple's major line of business is the general consumer. If you don't believe me, go price out a Solaris Sunfire series machine, and you will find that you can get at least 2 screaming Solaris machines for the price of a completely maxed out Mac Pro. I have only been using a mac for about 4 months, and have worked on every type of machine out there, from an OS/390 MF, OpenVMS Alpha/VAX, OS/2, AS/400, all the way down to my past thinkpads, and my current MAC. Regardless of how much someone wants to cry foul, and get their panties in a bunch, the bottom line is that the company's bottom line is thier top priority. When they get away from that, and things don't go as planned, REALLY bad things happen.

Bear Stearns anyone?

oh no I wasn't being sarcastic. i really was agreeing with you. Sorry if it sounded sarcastic. it wasn't meant to.

 

[Etrain]

So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal?
...
Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop.

Apple is a uniquely positioned company. Your argument is like saying Taco Bell sells cheaper burritos than Chipotle. Of-course they do, they target totally different customers.

When you buy anything Apple you aren't buying a computer, iPod, iPhone, or whatever, you are buying the something of value called design, ease of use, and even OS X. That is Apple's core competency over other companies within a given industry (phones, computers, music players, etc.).

Comparing Apple's products to any other brand will obviously lead you away from Apple because they are almost ALWAYS priced above the competition because their target market is not primarily concerned with price. The typical Apple buyer is most concerned with status, prestige, ease of use (ie no viruses), and design.

Why would Apple charge less for something when no other company is offering what they offer? Stop thinking about it just as a computer, because you are buying a list of somethings of value that aren't even typically associated with computers. Again, those SOVs are status, prestige, ease of use (ie no viruses), and design.

Honestly, if price is your main concern than the Thinkpad you bought is the right choice. You are in good company as last time I checked Apple's market share is under 20% of the computer industry. Apple doesn't compete based on price. You will always find something cheaper elsewhere.

Simply put, Apple offers a different product than any other computer manufacturer. All the other brands are becoming commodities while Apple is sticking out because they are different. For you, it seems the price is paramount so you totally made the right choice. For me though, I appreciate the SOVs Apple offers that no one else can offer.

Good, my marketing degree is paying off already!

 

[macenforcer]

You know I find it hard to believe people would actually say apple doesn't need to increase specs and lower prices. I wouldn't be surprised if all the people saying this are working for the Apple machine and they have a whole department dedicated to squashing talk like this on macrumors. You got found out!

 

[TimeWaster101]

You know I find it hard to believe people would actually say apple doesn't need to increase specs and lower prices. I wouldn't be surprised if all the people saying this are working for the Apple machine and they have a whole department dedicated to squashing talk like this on macrumors. You got found out!

bottom line is they are overpriced, but you have a few things going against them decreasing in price:

1. Greed. Of course, what company isn't this way.
2. Premium quality (thinner components cost more as well. also the slot drive is expensive.)
3. Like someone above said, only they offer certain features and people have shown their willing to pay it.
4. Quantity-Apple just isn't a huge computer supplier. Less sales of a unit=more expensive price per unit.

However, I must agree they should lower them. For instance, I know people that would love to own a mac, but due to finances are unable. This is sad, but unforetunatley their just not cheap machines. One thing I can say is that at least they hold their value well and last a LONG time. I've had the ibook I'm typing on for 4 years, and besides having to replace the superdrive, its ran as fast as it did day 1. Never could say that for any PC I've owned.

Also, just OSX is worth the extra money.

And the biggest problem with your argument is:

It shouldn't be a Macbook Pro vs Thinkpad, but Macbook vs Thinkpad argument. When you do that, you get two computers with similar components and prices. So Whalla! Also I've searched other PC brands for similar specs to the Macbook pro and personally didn't feel the Pro was that overpriced.

But hopefully you like your thinkpad... You'll hate Vista/Xp though... I could bet money you'll be back to mac by the end of the year.

 

[Apogee]

Some Thinkpads feature "Magnesium, carbon fiber reinforced plastic or titanium composite cases"

Composite being a keyword there too. Anyway no one said Thinkpads weren't tough, but they aren't using alumuminum which I believe is a much more expensive material to use in laptops. I could be wrong. Maybe Apple is fooling me there.

Actually I don't consider aluminum to be a "boon" on Apple's part. I have seen enough colleagues carrying around Macbook Pros with dinged corners to be careful about carrying my own around.

What's so great about aluminum? You get them for free with your $0.50 can of soft drink!