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Wow. This monkey dude has a huge chip on his shoulder. Coming from a long history on the mac side(I'd say 15 years) I can tell you that the OP has a legit opinion. If you don't stand up and say something, nothing ever changes.:)

I doubt 1 person is going to change Apple's mind tbh. :)
 
i understand macenforcer's take on the whole apple inc issue.
the main problem is..
1. we, the consumers are not united at all.

the recent removal of the apple remote form the penryn MBPs divided us already, many forum members believe it's just right since nobody uses them anyway or everyone has 4-5 spare at home gathering dust..
the consumers themselves are rationalizing the company's move!:mad:
without even considering the fact that the cost to build the current MBP is less than the previous generation.

similar things happened to the ipods, when every new generation loses the docks etc

and all of us should agree on one thing..
ALL companies ( apple included) have " business first, consumers second" mentality, that's how they profit, that's how they survive!

thank you!
my fellow americans! i need your support this november:D
 
The operating system is enough reason to fork over the cash, the amount of time and money it has saved me is invaluable. In the long run, you save money with Mac OS.

Not to mention less stress related illnesses associated with using windows therefor - health benefits!
 
the recent removal of the apple remote form the penryn MBPs divided us already, many forum members believe it's just right since nobody uses them anyway or everyone has 4-5 spare at home gathering dust..
the consumers themselves are rationalizing the company's move!:mad:
without even considering the fact that the cost to build the current MBP is less than the previous generation.

The forum is full of appeasers; you've got people here who still claim the Magsafes aren't defective. Whenever Apple cheapens out, there will always be people willing to fall on the sword and defend a multinational corporation they attached their self-identities to. Some folks will forever belong to the "Apple, right or wrong" club--even if it were revealed each $2000 MBP cost 1/10th of that amount to mass produce. Best to take such folks with a grain of salt.
 
The forum is full of appeasers; you've got people here who still claim the Magsafes aren't defective. Whenever Apple cheapens out, there will always be people willing to fall on the sword and defend a multinational corporation they attached their self-identities to. Some folks will forever belong to the "Apple, right or wrong" club--even if it were revealed each $2000 MBP cost 1/10th of that amount to mass produce. Best to take such folks with a grain of salt.

Amen. What's worse are those that can't get past their own ideals of a great computer... i.e. don't bash the machine I use because it's perfect.... kind of people. If you find fault with one of Apple's products it obviously must be your own fault because I this and I that.

Then there are those that want to nit pick at the smallest details of the Mac like they are real issues.... don't get me wrong, nothing said here fits that motif, but when people complain about there being no SD card reader or more USB ports it pisses me off. How about there is real desktop replacement laptop, the 17" is just a larger 15". Where's my killer headless Mac besides the Mac Pro? Why is the iPhone such a waste of time?

Apple's starting to fail both at industrial design and high end features IMHO, and i hope people start realizing that the lack of different OS colors and USB ports are the least of Apple's problems with their machines.

p.s. And yes... let's start with the faulty MagSafe adaptor.
 
The forum is full of appeasers; you've got people here who still claim the Magsafes aren't defective. Whenever Apple cheapens out, there will always be people willing to fall on the sword and defend a multinational corporation they attached their self-identities to. Some folks will forever belong to the "Apple, right or wrong" club--even if it were revealed each $2000 MBP cost 1/10th of that amount to mass produce. Best to take such folks with a grain of salt.

Then why bother reading this forum or even visiting this website?
 
Digital Skunk said:
Amen. What's worse are those that can't get past their own ideals of a great computer... i.e. don't bash the machine I use because it's perfect.... kind of people. If you find fault with one of Apple's products it obviously must be your own fault because I this and I that.

Then there are those that want to nit pick at the smallest details of the Mac like they are real issues.... don't get me wrong, nothing said here fits that motif, but when people complain about there being no SD card reader or more USB ports it pisses me off. How about there is real desktop replacement laptop, the 17" is just a larger 15". Where's my killer headless Mac besides the Mac Pro? Why is the iPhone such a waste of time?

Apple's starting to fail both at industrial design and high end features IMHO, and i hope people start realizing that the lack of different OS colors and USB ports are the least of Apple's problems with their machines.

p.s. And yes... let's start with the faulty MagSafe adaptor.

Agreed on all counts.

Then why bother reading this forum or even visiting this website?

Because there are lots of good folk here who don't blindly defend Apple at every opportunity. The ones who don't equate themselves with Apple products are the ones who offer the best advice.
 
So apple computers have really become a rippoff now that they use intel and they keep trying to gouge consumers even more with the charging of the remote. So what is the deal? I have been waiting for a new macbook pro for a long time and with the release of the penryin macbooks I gave up. Been using OS X for a long time, ever since it came out but I think I have finally given into the MS darkside. Here is why.

Macbook and macbook pro same design since forever. No option to remove the hard, no option to remove the optical bay, no sd card, no 2 button trackpad, did I say same design. THe biggest problem is the fans. WHY do the fans keep spinning all the time? Its poor design.

Finally said screw it and got a thinkpad T61 14" laptop. WOW. Here is what I got.


- 2.5GHz Penryin T9300
- 2GB Ram on one chip
- 250GB Hard Drive
- Built in webcam
- Removable superdrive. Can put battery there or anothe hard drive
- Trackpad and touchpad
- 3 usb ports
- Firewire port
- Spill resistant keyboard
- The nicest keyboard ever made
- Wifi N and Verizon WAN and bluetooth
- Screen goes ALL the way back
- Integrated graphics ( I don't play games)
- Modem, Ethernet
- Upgradeable CPU socket!!!
- PCMCIA Slot
- Express Card SLOT


Oh and the fans have NEVER come on yet. THe laptop runs very cool. Plus I can replace this cpu with something faster later if I want. No need to buy a whole new laptop.

So its basically the best laptop ever made. Just doesn't run OSX. I say screw os x. If I am being ripped of and torchered over it then it becomes too rediculous to keep using.

I havn't totally given up on Apple. Will wait to see if they ever come to their senses.

Oh by the way, that whole configuration listed above cost me only....Ready?

$1190. SHIPPED. And it didn't cost extra to get the black one. Don't hate me because I want the best hardware ok.

Fan keep on spinning while running MS windows or OSX? I use Photoshop a lot and play games on OSX, the fan doesn't turn on that often...

"No 2 button trackpad" -> That is how Apple has been since Day 1!

I wanted a Thinkpad before until IBM disappeared and turned into Lenovo Thinkpad....
 
Because there are lots of good folk here who don't blindly defend Apple at every opportunity. The ones who don't equate themselves with Apple products are the ones who offer the best advice.

Well the thing which annoys me is when people expect MS Windows to work perfectly on a mac (with bootcamp)--> Perfectly meaning perfect power saving features, perfect fan control, perfect video drivers etc etc. Okay, they want to get the most out of their $$$....

If the applications that one uses are all windows based, then why bother getting a Mac?
 
there are couple of silly things spoken always abt windows laptop. One its infested with virus and spyware/adware that it always crashes. I have bought 4 different windows laptops in last 8 yrs and I have not faced any issue. I just ensure I have firewall/virus/spyware software installed and every one of them is a freeware.

Other thing is that windows laptop is made up of cheap components(hyundai like) while macbook has lexus like components. That is another ********. Most of the components in the market are commoditized. We have intel proc/chipset/seagate/hitachi/corsair etc. Check review

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?article=T61andR61&newsID=3685

Most important is Thinkpad operates significantly cooler than macbook pro. I have seen all the generations of macbook/pro and every one of them gets too hot.

But mac looks cool plus osx is awesome. But apple need to either spec up macbook(more customizable options) or reduce price on macbook pro.

Please elaborate on "while macbook has lexus like components"... You mean the case and the CPU? I read from somewhere that the macbook (pro?) is made by Asus...
 
I doubt 1 person is going to change Apple's mind tbh. :)

Not just one baby:)
That whole line about change was for effect but just look at all these unhappy people.
I for one am still waiting for a good video card for my mac pro...(this is not an attempt to thread jack):)
 
If people keep buying Apples, they aren't going to change.

Same for Thinkpads. They stay back and old-looking because it works.
 
This thread is never going to end. Some people will just never agree.

If you want to buy a mac, great.
If you want to buy a thinkpad, great, but what's the point in going to a mac forum to tell everyone what they already know?

We already know macs are more expensive, we already know that dell and leveno are cheaper, but we bought a mac anyway. So how is this thread going to affect us? The only thing this thread does is cause arguments.
 
This thread is never going to end. Some people will just never agree.

If you want to buy a mac, great.
If you want to buy a thinkpad, great, but what's the point in going to a mac forum to tell everyone what they already know?

We already know macs are more expensive, we already know that dell and leveno are cheaper, but we bought a mac anyway. So how is this thread going to affect us? The only thing this thread does is cause arguments.

Well said, if you ever make it to Napa, CA, allow me to buy you a bottle of wine/beer!
 
Please elaborate on "while macbook has lexus like components"... You mean the case and the CPU? I read from somewhere that the macbook (pro?) is made by Asus...

Apple uses components from better manufacturers. For instance cheap laptops might come with wireless controllers from Broadcom while Apple may use Intel ones.
 
Maybe by the 8th page of posting, someone could kindly provide some benchmarks of the two systems processing the same task! =D

I have the odd feeling the original post was trying to justify the price difference by a hardware assessment, not OS stability and not anesthetics . So telling him one of those things makes the macbook pro "better" is contrary to what is being discussed.

So here's my shot at it, to give a better comparison between the two (because saying "i dont need dedicated graphics" equates to "i dont need a macbook pro level of apple" anyway). Ill be using the of a T61P built as close to the macbook pro as possible.

CPU:
T61P: Intel Core 2 Duo processor T9300 (2.5GHz 800MHz 6MBL2Cache)
MBP: Intel Core 2 Duo processor T9300 (2.5GHz 800MHz 6MBL2Cache)
Verdict: The Same (the same thing, self-explanatory)

Memory:
T61P: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
MBP: 2 GB PC2-5300 DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)

Hard Drive:
T61P: 250GB Serial ATA Hard Disk Drive, 5400rpm
MBP: 250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)
Display:
T61P: 15.4 WSXGA+ TFT (Max. Resolution 1680x1050)
MBP: 15.4 WSXGA LED (Max. Resolution 1440x900)
Verdict: T61P (while the Macbook Pro does have a newer, LED-style display, since 1440x900 WSXGA laptops fit in 14.1" laptops, that is not enough to justify the loss of resolution. Of course, resolution is once again, personal preference, but I am under the assumption you want the highest level of resolution. If you cant read 1690x1050 at 15.4", that's your problem, not the computer's)

System Graphics:
T61P: NVIDIA Quadro FX 570M (256MB DDR3) Nvidia Specifications Chart
MBP: NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT (512MB DDR3) Nvidia Specifications Chart
Verdict: MBP (for the moment) (while the specification links are general specifications, as graphics cards will vary from model to model, unless someone can provide me with information such as Memory bandwidth information, or Max resolution output, I can only award this to the macbook pro with the higher allocation of dedicated memory)

Optical Device
T61P: DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim
MBP: 8x Double-layer SuperDrive
Verdict: The Same (Both 8X dual layer dvd writers which I could not find sufficient problems in for either product via google)

Wireless Card
T61P: Intel Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN (802.11n)
MBP: Airport Extreme (802.11n)
Verdict: The Same (different manufacturers, although I could not find any reason why one network card outperformed the other, and there are too many variables to determine this, so they are again, at a tie)

Bluetooth
T61P: Integrated Bluetooth PAN
MBP: Integrated Bluetooth
Verdict: The Same (self-explanatory)

Touchpad
T61P: Standard Ultranav single-point contact touchpad + trackpad
MBP: Multitouch touchpad
Verdict: MBP (one of the not so price-significant advantages of the MBP, though is a highlight hardware-wise nonetheless)

Aux. Ports
T61P: 3USB, 1Firewire 400, 1 Modem, 1 Ethernet, 1 PCMCIA/Express slot
MBP: 2USB, 1Firewire 400, 1 Firewire 800, 1 Ethernet, 1 Express slot
Verdict: The Same (Firewire 800? PCMCIA? 1 more USB? justifies nothing, really)

Weight
T61P: 5.9lbs (via google searches)
MBP: 5.4lbs (via apple official specifications)
Verdict: MBP (no one wants the heavier laptop, right? unless you're preparing for an expected robbery and will be smashing them with it)

Actual Prices
T61P: $1479.75
MBP: $2,499.00

Price Difference: 1019.25 (for the T61P)
So needless to say, in terms of Hardware you would be saving $1019.25 USD. Which OS to use? Which one is Anesthetically more appealing? That's a preference call. Apples or Oranges much? =)
 
Actual Prices
T61P: $1479.75
MBP: $2,499.00

Price Difference: 1019.25 (for the T61P)
So needless to say, in terms of Hardware you would be saving $1019.25 USD. Which OS to use? Which one is Anesthetically more appealing? That's a preference call. Apples or Oranges much? =)

You are listing the price difference of over a grand, but are leaving out things that will obviously narrow the gap.

For instance, a 9 cell thinkpad battery that will last almost as long as the standard battery in a MBP. Cost via lenovo.com is $179.00 on sale for $120. Now the price difference is only $900. You also made you comparison of the graphics cards based on resolution. What is the difference in cost of a 256MB laptop video card and a 512MB laptop video card?

I realize that it may seem like I am nickel and dime-ing it down, but if you are going to show a cost comparison like that, then you have to be willing to do a true apples-to-apples comparison.

Lastly, it doesn't exactly take a degree in economics to figure out where the rest of the price difference comes from... VOLUME!!! I would bet my next paycheck on the fact that Lenovo crushes apple in the number of units sold category. That alone allows them to reduce their profit margin per machine, because they more than make up for it with the number of machines sold.

If you want to see the price of you MB and MBP come down, start converting everyone you know. Nothing else is going to work. Apple has investors who expect a certain profit margin and rate of growth every year. They aren't going to ruin themselves financially because you are being pissy about paying $19 for a remote.

that's my $.02.
 
Wow!!!

Agreed on all counts.



Because there are lots of good folk here who don't blindly defend Apple at every opportunity. The ones who don't equate themselves with Apple products are the ones who offer the best advice.
**
This is by far the dumbest quote I have ever read!!! LOL Yeah I can give a great opinion on Porsche, or Yacht because I don't own one or equate myself with one...are u kidding me????!! HA HA HA HA

This is a ridiculous thread

Those who cry can't afford to buy!
 
Believe me, I've switched to PC too after being a mac user for a long time. AFter about a year I came back to the mac, I just can't leave it

you'll be back i bet =]
 
Lastly, it doesn't exactly take a degree in economics to figure out where the rest of the price difference comes from... VOLUME!!! I would bet my next paycheck on the fact that Lenovo crushes apple in the number of units sold category. That alone allows them to reduce their profit margin per machine, because they more than make up for it with the number of machines sold.

If you want to see the price of you MB and MBP come down, start converting everyone you know. Nothing else is going to work. Apple has investors who expect a certain profit margin and rate of growth every year. They aren't going to ruin themselves financially because you are being pissy about paying $19 for a remote.

that's my $.02.

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A BRAIN!!!!!!!!! YES OF COURSE! APPLE MUST CHARGE MORE BECAUSE THEY SELL LESS! HELLO! DUH! THANK YOU GRN99EX BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR THIS. YOU MAY BE ONE OF THE ONLY ONES HERE WITH A BRAIN. :eek:
 
FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A BRAIN!!!!!!!!! YES OF COURSE! APPLE MUST CHARGE MORE BECAUSE THEY SELL LESS! HELLO! DUH! THANK YOU GRN99EX BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO HEAR THIS. YOU MAY BE ONE OF THE ONLY ONES HERE WITH A BRAIN. :eek:

I don't know you, and haven't been on this forum long enough to know whether or not you are being sarcastic with your post. Looking at the comparison from the poster I replied to, I realized one more useful tidbit in the volume/profit reasoning. I shouldn't have missed it before, but I have been up for the better part of 20 hours traveling for work.

When you look at the video cards that were posted in the comparison, the one glaring thing that stands out, is the difference in dedicated memory. This is most definitely attributed to the needs of Lenovo's major line of business... Corporate America! Any company that needs to order tons of machines will gladly sacrifice resolution and VRAM, for more HD space and RAM. Even at that, I regulary have customers who have to upgrade the RAM in the "spec machines" they buy.

Apple's major line of business is the general consumer. If you don't believe me, go price out a Solaris Sunfire series machine, and you will find that you can get at least 2 screaming Solaris machines for the price of a completely maxed out Mac Pro. I have only been using a mac for about 4 months, and have worked on every type of machine out there, from an OS/390 MF, OpenVMS Alpha/VAX, OS/2, AS/400, all the way down to my past thinkpads, and my current MAC. Regardless of how much someone wants to cry foul, and get their panties in a bunch, the bottom line is that the company's bottom line is thier top priority. When they get away from that, and things don't go as planned, REALLY bad things happen.

Bear Stearns anyone?
 
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