Leopard doesn't do it any different, as I mentioned earlier Mac OS X is a logic based system. Could you please enlighten me on the inconsistencies and what about it that doesn't work all the time? I'm not seeing what you mean.
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Why is the green "plus" button so broken?
- Thread starter EvryDayImShufln
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Leopard doesn't do it any different, as I mentioned earlier Mac OS X is a logic based system. Could you please enlighten me on the inconsistencies and what about it that doesn't work all the time? I'm not seeing what you mean.
He is referring to (I believe) the fact that in Safari, the (+) resizes the window so the horizontal scroll area is as small as possible (meaning, that it resizes the window to try and fit the width of the page, nothing more).
In Calculator, (+) switches between standard, scientific, and some other, really cool looking mode for hex and binary and stuff.
In iTunes, (+) switches between showing you everything and the miniplayer
In Quicktime, (+) is broken and does nothing
Are you seeing it now?
Nothing is perfect, though i am sure that HLDan would love to tell us why we are wrong about OS X not being perfect.
Frankly, the inconsistencies would irk me more if I needed it for more things than Safari and Word Processing (where it accomplishes the same function). I guess part of the issue comes from it being a plus sign really. Think about it. X closes the window, it does that in every application (in some it also quits the app). The minus minimizes the window... that also makes sense. But with it being a + you immediately think 'X closed it, - minimized it... this must either maximize it or simply make it larger'. It is logical to think that. If it were an ampersand, then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because the symbol would have nothing to do with the functionality, which would be best since the functionality is different based on the app that you are using (which makes sense... are you really going to need to maximize Calculator?)
Perhaps that should be the larger issue. Not whether or not a person is stuck on Windows conventions, or OS X conventions, but rather the button choice is poor (on Apple's part) in that it does not always function as it would logically be assumed to function based on its peer's functionality.
QuickTime is not f***ing broken! It's just that you haven't set the second state for the Zoom button to resize to. Go open a video and hit the Zoom button. Nothing, right? Now drag the corner and hit the Zoom button. OMG! It behaves normally!
Personally I've never had a problem with the zoom, but I grew up with Macs. You just need to keep in mind that is has different but useful purposes with each application. If you don't like reading a webpage in the size that it was meant to be viewed in, move your hand a total of 10", and you have manually resized it for your viewing pleasure!
Boy oh boy, I really sometimes have to wonder why do people leave Windows in favor of the Macintosh when they want the Mac to work like Windows.
except i never left windows. have been using macs since well forever at home. whats wrong to want to maximize a screen????
short term mac user? ok i guess since you know me haha. ive been using macs since early 1990s. family has had nothing but macs since before I was born.......
they should change it since its useful. wtf does the green button do. its almost random in its behavior
i guess unlike you, i can see flaws in apple related products and dont see everything apple does as "perfect"
what's wrong with having the option again? oh yea since YOU dont need it right lol
oh yea...seems im older than you which mean YOU are the relatively short term mac user lol. dont ever assume about people hows that?
That's difficult to believe from your posts, but OK.
People in this thread explained it to you many times. There are also many other threads about it. How could you be such a long time Mac user and still not get it.
That couldn't be further from the truth.
You literally just said it should be changed - despite the fact that a lot of people posted saying they want it the way it is. Why? Just because YOU don't like it the way it is?
You also haven't really explained why "zoom to fit" is not a good idea. Why do you need any window to be bigger than the content it is displaying? Don't give use that "it helps me focus" bit either - people that say that probably still need training wheels on their bicycles.
Being older doesn't mean you've used Macs longer. Besides, I think that was a reasonable assumption since you're ranting about how you want to maximize everything, which I don't think most people who have had Macs for 10+ years would be doing. I guess thats a second wrong assumption I made - that you would be able to pick up on it's purpose by now.
Besides, you can't be more than 6 months older than me.
When i first got my Mac, I distinctly remember the (+) button switching it between starting size and fit to screen size. Perhaps I am wrong, I am not infallible.
With apologies to the "Everything Apple does is Perfect" crowd (this is a Mac site after all), there have been some good points raised regarding the green button being one of the small bunch of flaws in OS X that scream out "bad usability" and would make Jakob Nielsen want to hit things. And yes I've studied HCI and user interface design and all that business.
Doing things differently is fine (I'd never maximise anything on a 20" screen anyway, YUCK), the slogan is "Think Different" after all. However doing things inconsistently is not, it confuses and frustrates the user. Users are saying "why is it doing xyz?" to computers enough as it is (I hear it from my mother at least every half hour) without the OS adding to it. Another area where this happens is the Finder. One minute it's a browser style window (that one was a Microsoft invention AFAIK, when they integrated Internet Explorer with Windows Explorer in IE4 / Win95OSR2), the next minute it's a spatial window (no buttons/toolbar/etc), it can't seem to make its mind up which it is especially with .dmg's. I'm not the only one to have mentioned this.
Having said that, the OP was doomed from the moment he mentioned the word "Windows". That automatically gets most of the forum population here into "attack mode" and makes them lose all sense of logic or objective opinion. Windows was a bad argument from the outset, not helped by the fact that it has some terrible usability issues of its own. (E.g. installing Office: Ooh a progress bar that goes to the end... and then starts from the beginning again! That's informative! Gives you that nice "walking up an escalator that's going down" feeling.)
To balance out the OS X / Windows arguments, OS X has its fair share of actual *bugs* too. E.g. Safari and form buttons. At the bottom of this edit window I have "Cancel", "Go Advanced" or "Cancel". I think I'll hit the first "Cancel", that ought to save it!
Doing things differently is fine (I'd never maximise anything on a 20" screen anyway, YUCK), the slogan is "Think Different" after all. However doing things inconsistently is not, it confuses and frustrates the user. Users are saying "why is it doing xyz?" to computers enough as it is (I hear it from my mother at least every half hour) without the OS adding to it. Another area where this happens is the Finder. One minute it's a browser style window (that one was a Microsoft invention AFAIK, when they integrated Internet Explorer with Windows Explorer in IE4 / Win95OSR2), the next minute it's a spatial window (no buttons/toolbar/etc), it can't seem to make its mind up which it is especially with .dmg's. I'm not the only one to have mentioned this.
Having said that, the OP was doomed from the moment he mentioned the word "Windows". That automatically gets most of the forum population here into "attack mode" and makes them lose all sense of logic or objective opinion. Windows was a bad argument from the outset, not helped by the fact that it has some terrible usability issues of its own. (E.g. installing Office: Ooh a progress bar that goes to the end... and then starts from the beginning again! That's informative! Gives you that nice "walking up an escalator that's going down" feeling.)
To balance out the OS X / Windows arguments, OS X has its fair share of actual *bugs* too. E.g. Safari and form buttons. At the bottom of this edit window I have "Cancel", "Go Advanced" or "Cancel". I think I'll hit the first "Cancel", that ought to save it!
I'll chime in. Now that we have spaces i feel that the green button should maximize. I want itunes full screen on one desktop, safari full screen on one, mail full screen on one, unision/transmission/otherapp on the other and I have ichat set to appear in all spaces and with a click in the dock its on top.
Anyway at least option/shift/command click maxamize.. no reason for that not to be added.
Anyway at least option/shift/command click maxamize.. no reason for that not to be added.
It was probably still switching between "Standard State" and "User State", but either Standard or User were being constrained by the screen size.
The button didn't change, the screens did.
Dude, get over yourself, I appreciate you not talking about me in the 3rd party. You can post directly to me and for the record your attitude is just like many who would rather join a bunch of negative people rather than point out anything good. You are just like misery who loves company. Also, if Apple's OS X is a bother for you I think Microsoft makes...what's it called???
Hopefully this should put this thread to rest. This link will show both pluses and minuses of the Zoom (Mac) Maximize (Windows) button. Both show strengths and weaknesses so there is no "right way". Personally I still think maximizing to a full browser screen is stupid as it hampers my work but anyway check this out.
http://www.xvsxp.com/interface/max_vs_zoom.php
http://www.xvsxp.com/interface/max_vs_zoom.php
If nobody's said it already (haven't finished the whole thread), double-clicking the Title Bar should maximize, double-clicking a 2nd time should return it to normal (like Windows); zoom button should remain as is.
I love using OS X, and really hate having to use Windows... but that doesn't mean that I have to blindly think that everything in OS X is the best possible thing with no room for improvement.
My point was that I have been seeing you post stuff where if anyone questions why OS X does something a certain way, regardless of whether or not they mention Windows, you show up and start spewing this drivel about how they are wrong, Apple, OS X, Steve Jobs and you are right, and if they don't like it, they can get the F out. Seriously, is that kind of zealotry necessary? It is just an Operating System after all, nothing more, nothing less.
And for the record, I get just as annoyed at the Vista Zealots on another forum i frequent. Or those that come to MacRumors and spout off about how *****ty the OS is and why can't it be more like Windows. Why o why did Steve Jobs personally break my computer!
I wouldn't rather join a bunch of negative people, I would like to join a group of people that are willing to look at things relatively objectively and say "Huh, that could be better" or "You know, it really would be great if OS X had this Windows feature (or vice versa)" without getting their panties in a twist over the fact that someone deigned to speak poorly about the Great and Powerful OS X.
There are basically two sides to this debate.
One is, "I want it to maximize." The other is, "Zooming is the better behavior, because it makes optimal use of screen real estate."
See the difference? There is a logical justification behind one of these arguments. See if you can tell which one.
Then there is a corrolary to the first argument, which says, "Zooming is bad, because some applications don't zoom properly, like iTunes." However, this is still not a valid argument against zooming. It is merely a powerful indictment of some boneheaded interface designers at Apple, who seem to gain more and more control with every release.
One is, "I want it to maximize." The other is, "Zooming is the better behavior, because it makes optimal use of screen real estate."
See the difference? There is a logical justification behind one of these arguments. See if you can tell which one.
Then there is a corrolary to the first argument, which says, "Zooming is bad, because some applications don't zoom properly, like iTunes." However, this is still not a valid argument against zooming. It is merely a powerful indictment of some boneheaded interface designers at Apple, who seem to gain more and more control with every release.
I think perhaps an opt-click would be a good idea due to all the switchers these days. Or a third party hack... there's a good shareware market for someone
As I've said on this forum before, with the current screen sizes I think a great option would be something that removes everything else... wallpaper, icons, dock, other windows, everything... and leaves just the window of the app you have open at whatever size you set on a plain or lightly patterned non-distracting background. Basically the same idea as maximise, without the ridiculous width you'd get on today's screens.
Writeroom has the right idea.
As I've said on this forum before, with the current screen sizes I think a great option would be something that removes everything else... wallpaper, icons, dock, other windows, everything... and leaves just the window of the app you have open at whatever size you set on a plain or lightly patterned non-distracting background. Basically the same idea as maximise, without the ridiculous width you'd get on today's screens.
Writeroom has the right idea.
You keep saying that we're all "blindly" following Apple, when in fact everyone that has posted in favor of the current function of the zoom button has given you pretty compelling evidence that it is the better way. The best that the pro-maximize people can come up with is "I want to focus" - which is nonsense. You just keep blindly ignoring the argument being made.
There is almost never, ever a need to maximize anything. Deal with it.
This discussion is going nowhere fast. Nobody on either side of the issue can seem to see and respect that other people don't have the same preferences they do. Come on, people, it is preference more than anything else. And unfortunately Apple doesn't like giving you preferences. That is the one place where I have always liked Windows, because they give you a choice in many things where Apple does not (not in this issue, but in many other cases). Really, that's all I want, a choice. Give me the OPTION to zoom or to maximize. Regardless of what some on here say, there are times where they both have their place. Please remember the first word in USER interface!
I'll agree that this conversation is not headed anywhere useful, but here are is my view:
I'd love maximize...especially on my macbook i always maximize windows. OS X made it easy by handing us expose to switch between windows, so i maximize what i'm working on, then switch with expose. why would i want to waste portions of the screen while i'm surfing the web or whathaveyou? instead of scrolling around i'm looking at what i want to see.
There is of course a point after which most windows don't need to be maximized, but for me that's after the 1680x1050 mark, and for me production programs such as CS3 are still maximized even on a 30".
Adobe got it perfect with CS3 with their options to maximize your workspace, or even cut out the dock etc. and just have a black background. but they left the old free floating windows option for people such as my girlfriend who despise anything maximized. i always maximize CS3 to the first option; if i'm working on a photo that's what i want to see; i have a second monitor if i need a finder window or something, and expose as well.
Point is apple should just give the option somewhere instead of leaving a button on every window that many folks won't use (often because what it will do is a bit of a mystery).
I'd love maximize...especially on my macbook i always maximize windows. OS X made it easy by handing us expose to switch between windows, so i maximize what i'm working on, then switch with expose. why would i want to waste portions of the screen while i'm surfing the web or whathaveyou? instead of scrolling around i'm looking at what i want to see.
There is of course a point after which most windows don't need to be maximized, but for me that's after the 1680x1050 mark, and for me production programs such as CS3 are still maximized even on a 30".
Adobe got it perfect with CS3 with their options to maximize your workspace, or even cut out the dock etc. and just have a black background. but they left the old free floating windows option for people such as my girlfriend who despise anything maximized. i always maximize CS3 to the first option; if i'm working on a photo that's what i want to see; i have a second monitor if i need a finder window or something, and expose as well.
Point is apple should just give the option somewhere instead of leaving a button on every window that many folks won't use (often because what it will do is a bit of a mystery).
I was talking about HLDan's blind following of Apple... not anyone else's... and if you read back, I am on YOUR SIDE!!!! I think maximizing windows is stupid, especially on widescreen monitors, and especially on OS X.
I am not blindly ignoring crap. I am talking about people like HLDan (him specifically really, so the rest of yall are cool...) that if they see someone question the ways of OS X get all huffy about it, and start talking about how the other person is an idiot for not 'getting it' essentially. So how am I in the wrong?
Also, how about you, for blindly ignoring the other 3 freaking paragraphs that I have in my post that you quoted? You know, where i clarify what I am talking about.
You know what? I actually agree with you wholeheartedly except for one thing. I have been on the Mac for 10 years now and not only did I start on Windows and used it for 3 years I went to school for computer science and learned only on Microsoft's DOS, yeah the hard way of programming. Now, I totally feel that OS X has room for improvement and no matter what Apple adds to it people will always complain what it's lacking.
My issue with your views as well as others is that NOBODY makes a suggestion on new ways to improve OS X, all they say is "This button in OS X should work "LIKE WINDOWS". That gets tired because it sounds as if Windows is the right way and those people as well as yourself should be running Windows, right? It makes zero sense to refer back to some other OS and suggest that the Mac should do it the way the other OS does it.
If you want improvement it's makes more sense to suggest new ways to improve the system rather than say, "The Mac should do this and that "LIKE WINDOWS".
Now, would like to hear my suggestion to improve OS X? After all of these years of evolution (especially since I feel that OS X is way ahead of Windows) I think that Apple should be able to make the OS start up instantly and no boot time.
Another suggestion, Apple should allow the user to change the look of the UI in any way we see fit as long as it doesn't change OS X's functionality. I for one don't want my Mac to look like someone else's and I hate haxies.
I am having a real issue with Apple about not creating Mail, AddressBook and iCal into one program. They are all in sync with each other but I have to open 3 different programs?
See those are all features I would like see improvement that has nothing to do with comparing it to Windows.
I don't see the Nintendo Wii mimicking features of the Xbox or the PS3 and the Wii it outselling all of them and remember the Nintendo used to be the underdog. You stay ahead by doing something new and different.