[WW] Scoreboard, Stats, and Rules

[Don't panic]

comments in blue

ASSIGNMENT ORDER:
Village Core (all players) -> Werewolf Core + General Pool WW core roles (all players - Village Core) -> WW Exclusive (all players - Village Core - Werewolf Core) -> Villagers [General Pool or Village Exclusive] (all players - Village Core - Werewolf Core - Werewolf Exclusive)

That way, WW have first dibs on general pool, but villagers have better chance to get village exclusive.
yep, i'll add this

Bluff : yeah I don't see any reason to have it for the villagers. if no one objects, i'll move it to WWexclusives
Amplifier : Can't double WW kill right ? nope, nor the infection, just the special individual powers. it would work on the maniac or the kami if the kami power is moved to the regular WW exclusive pool (rather then 'above, as is now), and for the kami it only works if the kami is lynched in the right time frame

Night resolve : Just indicate clearly that every action resolve at the same time, but in order (the seer, if infected can't scan and wait for the action before killing).
this is a very important point. it is implied that everything at night occurs 'simultaneously', and the order of action is basically only a tool to resolve potential conflicts. the special should be always informed of the results of their night activity "in the morning", along with the narration and everyone else. this avoids having people knowing informations they shouldn't before time, and possibly willingly or unwittingly influencing the game.
for example, the seer should be informed of the scan in the 'morning', not when they send the PM or when the GG has time to reply, so they cannot act on that info during the night.
similarly, if the seer is killed the same night, they shouldn't be informed at all. they are dead, and didn't have time to receive/process the result of the scan. if they are resuscitated, they would still miss that night's info. (although i suppose this could be interpreted and acted upon differently by different GG),

order for the night actions

General Pool : Spy / Blocker / Amplifier
WW Exclusive : Smoker / Meddler / Maniac
Villager Core : Guard / Seer / Undertaker
WW Core : Kill and Alpha
General Pool : Seeker

again this should be acted as guideline to resolve conflicts, with the underlying idea that everything should be 'simultaneous' the 'kill' comes last, but it still influences the seer and other nighttime activities which require a result back.
action that affect others (block, amplifier, guard) i think can be seen either way, and for that if the 'simultaneous' idea cannot be applied then the GG will use their judgment, obviously as consistently as possible.

example: what happens if wolves kill blocker, blocker targets smoker, smoker covers alpha, seer scans alpha, leech targets seer (PMs not necessarily in this order)

Action that interfere : time of posting will dictate the order vs the 2. not sure what you mean here
Swapper / Leech / Scavenger

And since we have interference, a night can't be shorter (unless collapser?) Could be HUGE for villagers i like this, i think it could be a good twist for the collapser and could favor both village or wolves, or be a double-edged sword for the village (if wolves get order in and seer/guard do not),

has anyone braved reading post #38?
comments?
some role have ambiguous/multiple way to interpret them, should be focus on one, allow all, etc?
are the explanations clear? what should be improved?

 

[twietee]

comments in blue


has anyone braved reading post #38?
comments?
some role have ambiguous/multiple way to interpret them, should be focus on one, allow all, etc?
are the explanations clear? what should be improved?

Yes. I agree with most of your comments.

Except one: If I were a GG and the Necromancer revives the Seer I would then inform the Seer via PM about his scan the night he died. As you said all the nightly actions happen simultaneously so it wouldn't make sense to withhold that info imo. We just don't hand out the scan info (I guess) that night to make sure no post mortem comments interfere with the general game.

I like the idea of the collapser possibly collapsing the night-time as well a lot!

If there is a confict say swapper, leecher and scavenger occur all the same night and affect the very same player I'd resolve the order after time of PM. Or am I missing something here.

 

[Sythas]

comments in blue

Action that interfere : time of posting will dictate the order vs the 2. not sure what you mean hereSwapper / Leech / Scavenger

I mean that if the leech send an order during the night to leech the power of the seer. I'm saying that if the seer already gave his question, he'll get the answer and the leecher will have the power in the morning. IF the seer did not asked the question yet, could the leech ask the question instead.

BUT now I understand (and it's simpler for the GG) that everything happened at the same time during the night and should be easier to give the answer to the seer in the morning, while indicating he lost the power in the morning.

The only trouble with that, while I made my game is to have the time at the end of the night to resolve everything and make a plausible story. (including the guard protecting the kill, smoker, meddler and everything)

 

[Don't panic]

Yes. I agree with most of your comments.

Except one: If I were a GG and the Necromancer revives the Seer I would then inform the Seer via PM about his scan the night he died. As you said all the nightly actions happen simultaneously so it wouldn't make sense to withhold that info imo. We just don't hand out the scan info (I guess) that night to make sure no post mortem comments interfere with the general game.

I like the idea of the collapser possibly collapsing the night-time as well a lot!

If there is a confict say swapper, leecher and scavenger occur all the same night and affect the very same player I'd resolve the order after time of PM. Or am I missing something here.

i am fine with that interpretation re seer/necromancer (although as a GG i wouldn't do it that way). i think there are multiple ways to properly resolve conflicts. i am fine with any of them as long as they are used consistently within a game.
it also depends on if and how you visualize the power to actually 'work', within the thematic frame of the game.

 

[Tomorrow]

most eliminated before day2: tomorrow (3/11: 1xD1, 2xN1)

\-:

 

[Don't panic]

I mean that if the leech send an order during the night to leech the power of the seer. I'm saying that if the seer already gave his question, he'll get the answer and the leecher will have the power in the morning. IF the seer did not asked the question yet, could the leech ask the question instead.

BUT now I understand (and it's simpler for the GG) that everything happened at the same time during the night and should be easier to give the answer to the seer in the morning, while indicating he lost the power in the morning.

The only trouble with that, while I made my game is to have the time at the end of the night to resolve everything and make a plausible story. (including the guard protecting the kill, smoker, meddler and everything)

that seems fine.
as i said, there is not just one 'right' way to do it.

 

[Don't panic]

ok, i guess the superlong post of rules wasn't such a brilliant idea.
i'll try a bit at the time.

A)

VILLAGE CORE:
1. Seer - This player can choose one other alive player to scan the role of per night. (Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)
2. Guard - This player can choose one alive player to protect from death or infection (including self). This protection extends into the following game day and protects from all types of death (infection) except lynching. The same player cannot be protected twice in a row (Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)
3. Undertaker - This player can choose one dead player to scan the role of per night. (Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)

VILLAGE EXCLUSIVE:
1. Stalwart - This player is immune to one infection from the werewolves. (Passive, One-time use, Night-time)
2. Thug - This player survives one death via any means except lynching. (Passive, One-time use, Anytime)
3. Hunter - This player chooses one other alive player to kill instantly. If the target is protected, or is the thug, the attack fails. When the kill is ordered privately, the hunter is not disclosed, nor there is certainty that the death is necessarily due to the hunter (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-Nature).
4. Executioner - This player chooses one other alive player to substitute for the lynching victim that day. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

CAN the executioner save themselves?

5. Morpher - This player chooses one role from the General Pool they would like to assume. If that role is not assigned, they assume that role. If the role is assigned, the player can choose whether or not to assume the alignment of the other player (without being told what it is). For example, if that player is a villager (good guy), the Morpher is allowed to exchange PMs with that player and is a good player. If that player is a werewolf (bad guy), the Morpher is allowed to exchange PMs with all active werewolves and is a bad player. These choices must be made by the start of Day 2. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)

anyone disagree with the language above?
any further clarification needed?
executioner, yay or nay?

 

[twietee]

ok, i guess the superlong post of rules wasn't such a brilliant idea.
i'll try a bit at the time.


anyone disagree with the language above?
any further clarification needed?
executioner, yay or nay?

I think it's a good idea. I'd prefer to link to it instead of having one extremely long OP at the start of a game. Should be finalized then though - or I put one in here or the rules thread if not. Not sure if others agree with that though.

The wording is also fine imo. As a noob I'd eventually be a bit confused about what info Seer and Undertaker would exactly get (just roles? party/faction too?) but I'm a bit dumb re these kind of things.

I also think the Executioner would be funny to be able to save himself but maybe too OP and/or close to the thug. I'm fine with both ways.

One thing though: I was a bit bummed to learn the game before the last one that wolves win in case of equalizing ww/villager count. Why does it have to be that way? It would give those 'weaker' vote-manipulating roles (for villagers) much more importence during the endgame since the ww have the general advantage of being able to PM and plot hence being able to win the 'first come first serve' rule in case of a (in that situation likely) tie.

 

[chrmjenkins]

Responses in red.

here is a re-write of the ROLE DESCRIPTIONS, with some variations, clarifications, examples, and open questions:

Every player in the game will have a special role or ability. Roles are randomly assigned and there are more role types than there are players, so some roles are not guaranteed to be in the game. There are 5 categories of roles.

1. Village Core - These roles are always assigned and exclusive to villagers (good guys)
2. Village Exclusive - These roles can only be assigned to villagers (good guys) but are not guaranteed to be assigned.
3. General Pool - These roles can go to villagers (good guys) or werewolves (bad guys). They are not guaranteed to be assigned.
4. Werewolf Exclusive - These roles can only be assigned to werewolves (bad guys) but are not guaranteed to be assigned.
5. Werewolf Core - These roles are always assigned and exclusive to werewolves (bad guys)

Roles also have varying frequency, duration and nature (active vs. passive). These qualities are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Here are the types of roles:

1. Active - These roles specify a certain player/role as their target. Example: seer.
2. Passive - These roles are automatically performed without the player's input. Example: Die-hard.
3. One-time use - These roles can only be used once. Example: Amplifier
4. Recurring - These roles are used once every full game day cycle. Example: Guard.
5. Night-time - These roles can only be used at night. Example: Undertaker
6. Day-time - These roles can only be used in the daytime. Example: Soother
7. Anytime - These roles have no time restriction. Example: Leech
8. Private - These roles are only valid actions when PMed to the GM. Does not apply to passive roles. Example: Smoker.
9. Dual-nature - These roles can be used publicly or privately. When done publicly, their effect is immediate, if applicable. If performed privately, their effect takes place at the next day/night deadline, if applicable. Does not apply to passive roles. Example: Hunter

There may be roles that have other specific instructions unique to them.

VILLAGE CORE:
1. Seer - This player can choose one other alive player to scan the role of per night. (Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)
2. Guard - This player can choose one alive player to protect from death or infection (including self). This protection extends into the following game day and protects from all types of death (infection) except lynching. The same player cannot be protected twice in a row (Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)
Note: Added protection from infection
Protection from infection is ok in my book and is mostly flavor.
3. Undertaker - This player can choose one dead player to scan the role of per night. (Active, Night-time, Recurring, Private)

VILLAGE EXCLUSIVE:
1. Stalwart - This player is immune to infection from the werewolves. (Passive, One-time use, Night-time)
2. Thug - This player survives one death via any means except lynching. (Passive, One-time, Anytime)
3. Hunter - This player chooses one other alive player to kill instantly. If the target is protected, or is the thug, the attack fails (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-Nature).
if it is done privately, the GG does not disclose that the death is due to the hunter
Agree. I'm all for branching effects/narration based on different ways to use powers.
4. Executioner - This player chooses one other alive player to substitute for the lynching victim that day. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
the executioner CAN or CANNOT also save themselves?
Cannot. Too close to die-hard otherwise IMO.
5. Morpher - This player chooses one role from the General Pool they would like to assume. If that role is not assigned, they assume that role. If the role is assigned, the player can choose whether or not to assume the alignment of the other player (without being told what it is). For example, if that player is a villager (good guy), the Morpher is allowed to exchange PMs with that player and is a good player. If that player is a werewolf (bad guy), the Morpher is allowed to exchange PMs with all active werewolves and is a bad player. These choices must be made by the start of Day 2. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)

GENERAL POOL:
1. Reverber - This player can double his or her own vote for lynching. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
The double vote counts for majority lock, if present, when used publicly. If the power is used privately, it only counts TWICE at the deadline, when the vote doubled is disclosed (not the reason it was doubled). It doubles whatever the valid vote is, so the vote can be changed
I think a general discussion needs to occur about whether or not actions can be rescinded when PMed based on outcome. I'll admit I've not been strict in enforcing it, but I think it should be first PM/decision only.
2. Rioter - This player can double another's lynching vote. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
In the game, a rioter can target any other player (but not themselves) to ‘enhance’ their ‘decision’ to cast a vote.
If the rioting is done privately (via PM to the GG), that person’s last vote will be counted TWICE at deadline, when the vote doubled (but not the rioter, nor if it is rioting) will be disclosed by the GG. However, the rioting CAN be done overtly, in the thread, with a Rioting Post. In this case both rioter and rioted will obviously become public and the rioted vote will count double from that post on (so it can also affect majority threshold/lock).
If the rioted person changes vote or goes to ‘no vote’ (the rioter can not do anything about it), it is the current/final valid vote that counts double.
I do not think it should count to majority threshold. It seems the intent of the role is to be able to overcome majority threshold. Also, the issue with a private riot only having affect at the deadline is the event of a tie. If person A got the same votes as B, and person A arrived at that vote total via a riot, person B would actually be lynched because their majority 'technically' happened first in the thread.
3. Soother - This player can block another's lynching vote. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
Mechanics are similar to the rioter
Fine because the targets of the action would almost always be different. Maybe we could give the same player a choice?
4. Spy - This player follows the target of a specific night-time use role. Cannot follow the same role (or person in alternative mode) in consecutive nights. (Active, Recurring, Night-time, Private)
Example: the spy selects to spy on the activity of the Seer, he/she will be told the target of the seer, but not the result of the scan or who did the scan.
Alternative mode: the spy selects a player to spy on. If that player uses a power that night, the spy knows what power was used, but not the target
How is alternative mode different than Seer?
5. Oracle - This player can ask 1 yes or no question. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
6. Seeker - This player can identify the power being used on a specific player at night. (Active, Recurring, Night-time, Private)
Example: the Seeker selects to follow Player X, he/she will be informed of all activities targeting that player, but not who performed them.
Yes, example is what I believe is role intention.
7. Stretcher - This player can extend the lynching deadline by up to 12 hours anytime before it occurs (or max otherwise defined by the GG). (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
If used publicly, it is effective immediately and voids the majority lock for the rest of the day, until the new deadline decided by the Stretcher. If used privately, it become effective since the moment the GG makes it public, and voids majority lock from then on. If majority lock was reached in between the PM and the announcement, the stretching does not count and the stretcher can re-use the power at his/her discretion
Allowing them to choose the exact deadline within a limit is interesting, but we should be cognizant of it as a possible tactic to exclude those from certain timezones or checking-in strategies. Those aren't necessarily bad, just something to keep in mind. I don't like the second part about timing because a GG who isn't Johnny on the spot could ruin a well time action by the stretcher.
8. Collapser - This player can shorten the lynching deadline by up to 12 hours anytime before it occurs (or otherwise defined by the GG). (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
If the deadline is less then the max collapsing time away, the Collapser can end the day instantly. If used privately, it become effective since the moment the GG makes it public, with whatever vote situation is occurring then (not when the secret PM was sent. If majority lock was reached in between the PM and the announcement, the collapsing does not count and the Collapser can re-use the power at his/her discretion
Same issues as stretcher.
9. Blocker - This player can block the activity of one player for a day OR night-time period (not both). This does not apply to normal WW powers such as night-time kills, infection or kamikaze kills (unless kami is an exclusive power, rather than core). (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)
Agree.
Examples: a. if a Stretcher is expanding the deadline and removing the majority lock, the Blocker can make the extension collapse and the original deadline/majority lock is reinstate; b. or when a soother is ‘silencing’ a player, if the blocker targets the soother, the mellowed player goes back to normal status and their vote counts as normal; c. if the power is used at night on player W, and they are the guard, their activity is ineffective, but they do not know it; d. if they target a player that turns out to be the seer, the scan fails. E. if they target the oracle before an answer is provided in the thread, the question goes unanswered, without explanations by the GG
The last scenario is pretty brutal for the village, but that's how I would have ruled it without previously considering that scenario.
10. Amplifier - This player can enhance the potency of one other player's action for a day or night-time period. The amplified player gets notified of the extra power. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
It is a FORCED enhancement of the activity, not a second use. Thus, the target MUST use the power in that timeframe, although what they do with it is their choice.
For example, a seer will get a double scan that night, guard gets double protection that night, the hunter gets two kills (but they HAVE to be at that time, or they are BOTH lost). If a rioter is targeted, the Rioter MUST use the power and their rioting targets gets their vote TRIPLICATED, (not two separate double votes)
If the target’s power was already spent, nothing happens and the amplification is wasted.
Agree.
11. Necromancer - This player can revive one dead player. That player's power status returns to what it was just before death. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)
12. Die-hard - This player can survive one lynching attempt. Nobody is lynched in their place Agree.(Passive, One-time use, Day-time)
13. Judge - This player can save another player from lynching. No player is lynched that day to prevent redundancy with Executioner. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
14. Bluff - This player submits a private vote that is different than their public vote. Once enacted, the public vote from then on does not count, but the bluff can still ‘vote’ as usual. The bluff can also change their secret vote in the same session, or no-vote, but then the power is used (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Private)
Note: I changed this form how it was initially written because it was basically unusable for the village (I was the village bluff once, and there was no likely scenario to use it). Even as is, may it should become a wolf exclusive
It does not count, but the village would only know either at the deadline or when it should decide a lock situation, but doesn't. I still think it can be used to give wolves a false sense of security if they think their fellow wolf is safe when they aren't.
15. Swapper - This player may swap the powers of any two other players. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
Note: should this be applied to only living players, or can the power of a dead player be swapped as well?
Only alive IMO to be distinct from scavenger.
16. Leech - This player may steal the power of another live player. Power use status is preserved. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)
17. Scavenger - This player may steal the power of a dead player. Power use status is preserved. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Private)

WEREWOLF EXCLUSIVE:
1. Smoker - This werewolf may block one other player from any night-time scan activity. (Active, One-time use, Night-time, Private)
Example: the smoker selects to ‘cover’ player Y. if Player Y was the target of night activities/scans, they fail
Alternative mode: the smoker selects a PLAYER to block. If that player uses a power that night, it fails to work
2nd Alternative mode: the smoker selects a ROLE to block. If that role uses a power that night, it fails to work
2nd alt mode makes them the maniac in most usable scenarios. Fine with 1st alt mode though.

2. Meddler - This werewolf may provide fake scan results for the actions/status of another player (wolf or not) at night-time. If the action is a target, a random other player is chosen. (Active, One-time use, Any-time, Private)
Example: the meddler selects to ‘cover’ player Z. if Player Y was the target of night activities/scans, they give the wrong result if there are multiple activities, they ALL give the wrong result. If the Meddler provides a preferred answer, that is what is given as a scan result, if not the GG randomly selects one (possible) answer. For example, if the alpha wolf/rioter is protected by the meddler, and gets scanned by the seer, the result scan would be either something decided by the meddler beforehand or a random villager picked form the entire villager pool (core, exclusive, general) irrespective of whether they are in play or not. The meddler can exclude some specific roles. If the alpha was targeted by –for example- the amplifier, then one of the other players gets amplified that night. If the meddler choses to provide an answer it is only by type (scan vs target), not by specific action. That is he cannot provide separate fake scan answers for a scan by the seer or spy, nor a separate fake targets for hunter or amplifier.
If the meddling is done during day time, it only works if done BEFORE an action (e.g. public instakill) or before an answer is provided
Agree with interpretation and examples.
3. Maniac - This werewolf may choose one extra kill action or override an action protecting their target. (Active, One-time use, Night. private)
Should this be allowed to be used also during the day? If so should it be undistinguishable by the insta-kill, or should be clear the extra kill is a WW kill
This is too powerful IMO. They could instantly nuke the seer before they give out info, e.g.

WEREWOLF CORE:
1. Alpha - This werewolf may select one other player to convert to a werewolf in the night-time period. Normal protections apply. (Active, One-time use, Night-time, Private)
2. Kamikaze - This werewolf can kill a player of their choosing at the time of their death. Normal protections apply. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)

 

[Don't panic]

I think it's a good idea. I'd prefer to link to it instead of having one extremely long OP at the start of a game. Should be finalized then though - or I put one in here or the rules thread if not. Not sure if others agree with that though.

The wording is also fine imo. As a noob I'd eventually be a bit confused about what info Seer and Undertaker would exactly get (just roles? party/faction too?) but I'm a bit dumb re these kind of things.

I also think the Executioner would be funny to be able to save himself but maybe too OP and/or close to the thug. I'm fine with both ways.

One thing though: I was a bit bummed to learn the game before the last one that wolves win in case of equalizing ww/villager count. Why does it have to be that way? It would give those 'weaker' vote-manipulating roles (for villagers) much more importence during the endgame since the ww have the general advantage of being able to PM and plot hence being able to win the 'first come first serve' rule in case of a (in that situation likely) tie.

while i also think we should be given the executioner (and more generally everyone, creativity FTW) freedom to decide what to do with their power, the major drawback I see is not that is too OP, but that it becomes almost a given they will save the power for themselves, thus becoming redundant with other powers (die-hard) -edit: the thug survives attacks, not lynching

will edit language re: seer/undetaker to clairfy

the tie-WW-win thing is for the regular games (without special-special powers). it was to avoid that the last game would be a silly game to post first after narration, as it advantages people who can be around then too much.
with the tie-break it would also be silly.
with the multi-special is different. i think sythas calculated that, based on the remaining available powers, was impossible for the village to win.
but if there is a mathematical chance for the village to win, then definitively keep the game going.


rules: as we 'clean up' the rules i will post the 'good' version in the OP of THIS thread, then you can just link to here from your thread.

you should however put in your OP a "summary" of the game, especially since the rules in this thread will be general and allow for GG intevention
something like

-player list
-link to evening and morning narrations (plus special events if they occur)
-maybe link to the google-doc spreadsheet
-number of players
-range of wolves (including Morpher option, if used)
-type of day/night deadlines
-tie-break decider
-'variants' used (eg, NW, special rules and exceptions, etc.
-link to general rules and role description (OP in this thread)

EDIT: one more thought Re: executioner.
because they are village exclusive, they basically clear themselves as they avoid lynching.
so they do become instant WW fodder. not sure how this plays into the balance.
an infected executioner would be devastating.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Actually, while I appreciate that one long post at the beginning can be difficult to trawl through, I have to say that a post - easily remembered as Post 1 - that one can swiftly revert to, in order to check something (such as the definition of someone's powers) is extraordinarily helpful, and I'd certainly be in favour of a recapitulation of the roles and their respective powers and responsibilities in Post 1.

Certainly, I, for one, have had relatively frequent recourse to it since we have been playing the more 'complex' games.

Guys, re the Very Long Posts. And, - more to the point - on the posts & responses in different colours: (And a possible reason why some of us haven't reverted back to you on them).

While I love text, could I implore you please to insert paragraphs, or clear breaks between them - the sections - just to make them easier to read?

As they are, I find them awfully difficult to read as massive blocs of colour, that segue straight into another bloc of print, and I can feel my eyes flinching, squeezing and wincing and my temples start to throb just looking at them.

 

[Don't panic]

Thanks chris.

i will address a few at a time

GENERAL POOL:
1. Reverber - This player can double his or her own vote for lynching. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
The double vote counts for majority lock, if present, when used publicly. If the power is used privately, it only counts TWICE at the deadline, when the vote doubled is disclosed (not the reason it was doubled). It doubles whatever the valid vote is, so the vote can be changed

I think a general discussion needs to occur about whether or not actions can be rescinded when PMed based on outcome. I'll admit I've not been strict in enforcing it, but I think it should be first PM/decision only.

in this case, i think once the PM is sent, the power is used. however, i think it should act not on a specific post, but on the person voting. in other words, the reverber CAN change their vote in the thread as usual. whatever their final valid vote is, it counts double.
as far as majority lock, if it is done loudly as a public declaration in thread, from that moment on the vote of the reverber counts double. if s/he changes the vote, the new vote counts double. in presence of a majority-lock mechanism, it will affect it, and possibly lock.


2. Rioter - This player can double another's lynching vote. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
In the game, a rioter can target any other player (but not themselves) to ‘enhance’ their ‘decision’ to cast a vote.
If the rioting is done privately (via PM to the GG), that person’s last vote will be counted TWICE at deadline, when the vote doubled (but not the rioter, nor if it is rioting) will be disclosed by the GG. However, the rioting CAN be done overtly, in the thread, with a Rioting Post. In this case both rioter and rioted will obviously become public and the rioted vote will count double from that post on (so it can also affect majority threshold/lock).
If the rioted person changes vote or goes to ‘no vote’ (the rioter can not do anything about it), it is the current/final valid vote that counts double.

I do not think it should count to majority threshold. It seems the intent of the role is to be able to overcome majority threshold. Also, the issue with a private riot only having affect at the deadline is the event of a tie. If person A got the same votes as B, and person A arrived at that vote total via a riot, person B would actually be lynched because their majority 'technically' happened first in the thread.

OK on the threshold. the number of voters is the same, so the threshold stay. makes it more powerful and simple.

for the second point, it could go either way. a) the rioted can be counted as the 'very last vote' so it won't be sufficient to win the tie. or b) while it is only activated at the deadline, the doubling is of the last valid vote of the rioted person, so it is the timeline of that vote that counts. I wouldn't throw in c) the timing of the PM, as it only complicates things for the GG.
i think B) is the closest to the spirit of the power



3. Soother - This player can block another's lynching vote. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
Mechanics are similar to the rioter

Fine because the targets of the action would almost always be different. Maybe we could give the same player a choice?

not sure what you mean here

 

[chrmjenkins]

For the soother, I'm saying you'd almost always want to suppress the vote of a different person than you'd want to riot/double. So it's not a duplication of the same role. However, we could roll it into one and give the person the choice of soothing or rioting. I rather like the idea of alt. modes to consolidate the number of available roles while still preserving a lot of potential options for the villagers.

 

[Don't panic]

For the soother, I'm saying you'd almost always want to suppress the vote of a different person than you'd want to riot/double. So it's not a duplication of the same role. However, we could roll it into one and give the person the choice of soothing or rioting. I rather like the idea of alt. modes to consolidate the number of available roles while still preserving a lot of potential options for the villagers.

ah, i see.
i just meant 'same mechanics', in how the public/private voting aspects of it work, just didn't want to repeat everything i wrote. not that the roles are duplicated. they are opposite, but work in similar fashion.
i like them separate as there is more chance to see them at work. they are kind of sleeper roles, as they would be often ineffective but occasionally if used right they can have a big impact.
also it would be cool to see them work against each other
but if there is consensus on merging them, i am fine with that

to continue:

4. Spy - This player follows the target of a specific night-time use role. Cannot follow the same role (or person in alternative mode) in consecutive nights. (Active, Recurring, Night-time, Private)
Example: the spy selects to spy on the activity of the Seer, he/she will be told the target of the seer, but not the result of the scan or who did the scan.
Alternative mode: the spy selects a player to spy on. If that player uses a power that night, the spy knows what power was used, but not the target

How is alternative mode different than Seer?

in this mode it would be basically a seer light. if no power is used, no information is gained. if the power is used, not necessarily the alignment follows.

5. Oracle - This player can ask 1 yes or no question. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)

6. Seeker - This player can identify the power being used on a specific player at night. (Active, Recurring, Night-time, Private)
Example: the Seeker selects to follow Player X, he/she will be informed of all activities targeting that player, but not who performed them.
Yes, example is what I believe is role intention.

OK

7. Stretcher - This player can extend the lynching deadline by up to 12 hours anytime before it occurs (or max otherwise defined by the GG). (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
If used publicly, it is effective immediately and voids the majority lock for the rest of the day, until the new deadline decided by the Stretcher. If used privately, it become effective since the moment the GG makes it public, and voids majority lock from then on. If majority lock was reached in between the PM and the announcement, the stretching does not count and the stretcher can re-use the power at his/her discretion

Allowing them to choose the exact deadline within a limit is interesting, but we should be cognizant of it as a possible tactic to exclude those from certain timezones or checking-in strategies. Those aren't necessarily bad, just something to keep in mind. I don't like the second part about timing because a GG who isn't Johnny on the spot could ruin a well time action by the stretcher.

i wrote the second part because the GG cannot alway be ready to act, so the stretcher must decide whether to time it perfectly -and go public- or stay hidden and test their luck with the GG (of course they could PM the GG first to see if they are around).
the very last bit is to avoid that the stretcher uses the power, just to have it wasted just because the GG couldn't be around in time to implement.
thinking aboput it, it could be so that the GG simply sees the PM, verifies it was sent before the lock is reached, and communicates the new deadline and the fact that majority lock does not count for this round. i guess his is simpler and truer to form

8. Collapser - This player can shorten the lynching deadline by up to 12 hours anytime before it occurs (or otherwise defined by the GG). (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)
If the deadline is less then the max collapsing time away, the Collapser can end the day instantly. If used privately, it become effective since the moment the GG makes it public, with whatever vote situation is occurring then (not when the secret PM was sent. If majority lock was reached in between the PM and the announcement, the collapsing does not count and the Collapser can re-use the power at his/her discretion

Same issues as stretcher.

see above

 

[Don't panic]

next bit:

9. Blocker - This player can block the activity of one player for a day OR night-time period (not both). This does not apply to normal WW powers such as night-time kills, infection or kamikaze kills (unless kami is an exclusive power, rather than core). (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)
Agree.
Examples: a. if a Stretcher is expanding the deadline and removing the majority lock, the Blocker can make the extension collapse and the original deadline/majority lock is reinstate; b. or when a soother is ‘silencing’ a player, if the blocker targets the soother, the mellowed player goes back to normal status and their vote counts as normal; c. if the power is used at night on player W, and they are the guard, their activity is ineffective, but they do not know it; d. if they target a player that turns out to be the seer, the scan fails. E. if they target the oracle before an answer is provided in the thread, the question goes unanswered, without explanations by the GG
The last scenario is pretty brutal for the village, but that's how I would have ruled it without previously considering that scenario.

in light of other part of the discussion, should the Blocker have the option to target either a player, or instead a specific role? that is, can they say "block the meddler", or "block the seer", or only "block player A" (which is how i was seeing it so far)?

10. Amplifier - This player can enhance the potency of one other player's action for a day or night-time period. The amplified player gets notified of the extra power. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
It is a FORCED enhancement of the activity, not a second use. Thus, the target MUST use the power in that timeframe, although what they do with it is their choice.
For example, a seer will get a double scan that night, guard gets double protection that night, the hunter gets two kills (but they HAVE to be at that time, or they are BOTH lost). If a rioter is targeted, the Rioter MUST use the power and their rioting targets gets their vote TRIPLICATED, (not two separate double votes)
If the target’s power was already spent, nothing happens and the amplification is wasted.
Agree.


11. Necromancer - This player can revive one dead player. That player's power status returns to what it was just before death. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Private)
12. Die-hard - This player can survive one lynching attempt. Nobody is lynched in their place Agree.(Passive, One-time use, Day-time)
13. Judge - This player can save another player from lynching. No player is lynched that day to prevent redundancy with Executioner. (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Dual-nature)

14. Bluff - This player submits a private vote that is different than their public vote. Once enacted, the public vote from then on does not count, but the bluff can still ‘vote’ as usual. The bluff can also change their secret vote in the same session, or no-vote, but then the power is used (Active, One-time use, Day-time, Private)
Note: I changed this form how it was initially written because it was basically unusable for the village (I was the village bluff once, and there was no likely scenario to use it). Even as is, may it should become a wolf exclusive
It does not count, but the village would only know either at the deadline or when it should decide a lock situation, but doesn't. I still think it can be used to give wolves a false sense of security if they think their fellow wolf is safe when they aren't.

->i guess you are right, but the chances it is not used, or it is used just to mess around are pretty high (though i guess this could be entertaining). i still think it makes more sense as WW exclusive

15. Swapper - This player may swap the powers of any two other players. (Active, One-time use, Anytime, Dual-nature)
Note: should this be applied to only living players, or can the power of a dead player be swapped as well?
Only alive IMO to be distinct from scavenger.

->OK

 

[Don't panic]

last bit

WEREWOLF EXCLUSIVE:
1. Smoker - This werewolf may block one other player from any night-time scan activity. (Active, One-time use, Night-time, Private)
Example: the smoker selects to ‘cover’ player Y. if Player Y was the target of night activities/scans, they fail
Alternative mode: the smoker selects a PLAYER to block. If that player uses a power that night, it fails to work
2nd Alternative mode: the smoker selects a ROLE to block. If that role uses a power that night, it fails to work
2nd alt mode makes them the maniac in most usable scenarios. Fine with 1st alt mode though.

not sure why would s/he become the maniac.
but rereading, 2 and 3, are essentially the blocker so i guess we should stick to 1: the smoker produces a smokescreen around one person, and thus they cannot be 'seen'. for example the seer would know the scan failed, but they do not know why: blocker, smoker, something else?

3. Maniac - This werewolf may choose one extra kill action or override an action protecting their target. (Active, One-time use, Night. private)
Should this be allowed to be used also during the day? If so should it be undistinguishable by the insta-kill, or should be clear the extra kill is a WW kill
This is too powerful IMO. They could instantly nuke the seer before they give out info, e.g.

-> good point, scratch that

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Thanks, guys, for inserting spaces between the respective paragraphs, both coloured and plain.

It makes reading these thoughts - and amended discussions - an awful lot easier. Much appreciated.

 

[Don't panic]

Thanks, guys, for inserting spaces between the respective paragraphs, both coloured and plain.

It makes reading these thoughts - and amended discussions - an awful lot easier. Much appreciated.

you're right of course, sorry about that.


does post #60 address your earlier concerns?

basically twietee would have a summary of the general characteristics/status of the game, and then a link to the OP of this thread where the detailed rules will be listed.

also, the colored table summarizing the roles is on the bottom of the google-doc spreadsheet where i keep the record of the votes, linked to in my sig.

i will update it if necessary with the final decisions from this discussion

 

[Scepticalscribe]

you're right of course, sorry about that.


does post #60 address your earlier concerns?

basically twietee would have a summary of the general characteristics/status of the game, and then a link to the OP of this thread where the detailed rules will be listed.

also, the colored table summarizing the roles is on the bottom of the google-doc spreadsheet where i keep the record of the votes, linked to in my sig.

i will update it if necessary with the final decisions from this discussion

If the quick précis of the roles (and powers) could be included in Post 1, I would be grateful.

Re the space breaks, I used to get migraines (since my wisdom teeth were addressed three years ago, I have been mercifully free of them; but tonight, seeing those blocs of colour, I felt a clenching of jaw and squinting of pained eyes, and tension in temples, and so I simply cut and ran. Grateful that you amended that).

Re Collapser and Stretcher - could you please clarify what exactly is planned with the role of stretcher as I am still unclear as to the exact parameters you seem to have in mind. (Last complex game out, I was a stretcher before I was topped, but never had a chance to use my power).

Now, re times zones, - having assumed I was on top of things - I was caught by the use of the Collapser power in the last game, as I think all of us in Europe (and elsewhere) were. However, that is life; there are elements of the game that are random, and clever use of certain one-off powers can alleviate positions, and neutralise other situations.

While I suspect it may have been used to pre-empt some of us who were elsewhere when the (collapsed) deadline occurred, - or was invoked - such is life. While I was (slightly) put out at the time, with the luxury of time to think, it was a clever use of a power in a given situation, and that sort of tactical awareness is what we ask of participants.

 

[twietee]

y
basically twietee would have a summary of the general characteristics/status of the game, and then a link to the OP of this thread where the detailed rules will be listed.

Exactly. I'll try to make the 'design' a bit easier on the eye thouhg.

But with these complex roles I believe one should have a 'as lengthy as needed' explanation - possibly with a short example, like what DP did already - and a shorter one in the OP with a link to the other. I'll try to set it up this week-end but must admit that it's quite some work so I'll basically leave them as they are except those mentioned manipulating deadlines. I think it's a bit better to tone down on the possibilities alittle now instead of messing around because of first timer gg and being in a different time-zone. Have to think on that though.

I'll definitely have/add all the goodies in the OP of course like links to day/nights etc pp and how I will implement the infamous dice-roll (muhahaha)..

 

[Don't panic]

If the quick précis of the roles (and powers) could be included in Post 1, I would be grateful.

Re the space breaks, I used to get migraines (since my wisdom teeth were addressed three years ago, I have been mercifully free of them; but tonight, seeing those blocs of colour, I felt a clenching of jaw and squinting of pained eyes, and tension in temples, and so I simply cut and ran. Grateful that you amended that).

Re Collapser and Stretcher - could you please clarify what exactly is planned with the role of stretcher as I am still unclear as to the exact parameters you seem to have in mind. (Last complex game out, I was a stretcher before I was topped, but never had a chance to use my power).

Now, re times zones, - having assumed I was on top of things - I was caught by the use of the Collapser power in the last game, as I think all of us in Europe (and elsewhere) were. However, that is life; there are elements of the game that are random, and clever use of certain one-off powers can alleviate positions, and neutralise other situations.

While I suspect it may have been used to pre-empt some of us who were elsewhere when the (collapsed) deadline occurred, - or was invoked - such is life. While I was (slightly) put out at the time, with the luxury of time to think, it was a clever use of a power in a given situation, and that sort of tactical awareness is what we ask of participants.

stretcher.
the reason i initially introduced the role of the stretcher in the 'mistborn' game (where it was called 'pulser' in accordance with the book's nomenclature) was mainly because it was one of the 16 metal powers and it was paired with the collapser (slider there) as all powers are in antithetic pairs (as you well know ) in the mistborn world.
it fit well with the deadline-based format (it would be in fact pointless in a no deadline format), but it certainly is one of the 'weak' powers, meaning that it unlikely will have very dramatic effects in most games. however, i do think we also need some weaker powers around to allow for the importance of the social/deductive aspect of the game. and they are still better that nothing at all

while the collapser can be used in multiple ways, including some good immediate tactical moves (e.g., as defense to close the day in a moment where you (or one you wish to protect) are at risk but temporarily are not in the lead, as offense to force lynching of someone speciifc, etc.), and strategic (playing with time zones, preventing a last minute switcharoo, etc.), the stretcher i see mostly as a strategic power and mostly defensive one.
the stretcher could be used to neutralize the collapser (and thus possibly expose them), to neuterize the ambush aspect of a switcharoo or other last-minute moves, to avert (at least temporarily) an apparently certain lynching by adding more time to the clock (we have seen in the last game how player's mood -and votes- can change dramatically in a short time) or, in games where majority lock is enabled, to eliminate that option from one lynching that is not going well from the stretcher's perspective.
if stretching is in play, majority lock is disabled and the day will end at the (newly decided) deadline. this gives the stretcher and their team time to try something. it could also be used to establish 'goodiness' or otherwise influence the meta-game.

as i mentioned, it is not one of the strong powers, nor one of the easiest to use. it is a more subtle power, but it could be decisive if used well.

in the mistborn game, if i remember right, the stretcher/pulser extended one of the deadlines, just to have the collapser/slider re-close it shortly after. While the collapsing did not result to be tactically useful then and was mostly wasted, the stretching -which had been used publicly- did work to pretty much clear the stretcher, since the lynched player he attempted to help turned out to be a villager. so in that game the stretching was more useful than the collapsing



speaking of deadlines, how are you going to set them up, Twietee?

no deadlines, fix 'day' length, ~same time of the day, majority lock, over-time (if so , how do you plan to resolve the ties)?

 

[twietee]

more conservative. deadlines yes. bit flexible too (weekend etc). majority lock too. aaand no overtime.

but going to post that stuff on monday in the thread.

 

[Don't panic]

more conservative. deadlines yes. bit flexible too (weekend etc). majority lock too. aaand no overtime.

but going to post that stuff on monday in the thread.

so ties are decided the standard way (first to the post)?

i like that because it leaves a lot of 'game' options in the hands of the players.


remember, monday is Memorial Day in the US, so there might be slower activity.

over the weekend i'll try to wrap up the rules discussion if i have time, and post a 'consensus' version in the OP of this thread.

although it might have to wait until tuesday

 

[twietee]

so ties are decided the standard way (first to the post)?

i like that because it leaves a lot of 'game' options in the hands of the players.


remember, monday is Memorial Day in the US, so there might be slower activity.

over the weekend i'll try to wrap up the rules discussion if i have time, and post a 'consensus' version in the OP of this thread.

although it might have to wait until tuesday

yes, ties solved the oldschool way.

Monday is a holiyay here as well. game will start end of next week so no rush. not gonna lie: not that much time at hand anyway right now and will be busy enough preparing the narrations as much as possible - bit afraid about that tbh.

 

[chrmjenkins]

I just had an idea for a "Saw" themed game where a random player is chosen. If no majority is reached by the deadline, that player dies. Could be an interesting idea, though we'd have to figure a way to balance a wolf's outs via power use if they are randomly chosen.