WWDC: New Tiger Features

[killmoms]

Where is the stream?

It has been pointed out several times in this thread already, but it's linked right from the front page. There's also a 300MB version that can be downloaded as a file back a couple pages.

--Cless

 

[reno]

Please Read if you were disappointed by WWDC 2004

If you were disappointed by this year's WWDC, then you probably have an issue with depression or in general have a negative attitude and would've been disappointed no matter what was announced. Yes, it would've been nice to see a refresh of the iMac and/or iPod lines. However, if you were paying attention, you really should've been blown away by Tiger. That was, and should've been, the focus of the keynote as it is simply incredible how intelligent and powerful this OS is going to be. Apple truly is ahead of the competition and for those of you who commented in these forums that the changes in 10.4 are "minor" ... you are either dim-witted or really ignorant about the current state of operating systems. OK, so I'm steamed over reactions to an operating system, and I guess I need a little perspective, but so do those who reacted negatively to this year's WWDC, especially the details regarding Tiger. If you don't see the awesome benefits of Spotlight, Automator, Dashboard, H.264, iChat, Safari RSS, etc., then you must just be using your computer for email and games ... so why are you even checking out the WWDC details? In fact, for those of you who were disappointed, I recommend a penance of one week using Windows XP. That should give you enough perspective to really appreciate what Tiger is all about.

 

[Master Windu]

Why are people not impressed with SpotLight?

It seemed to me that SpotLight is the most useful tool shown in the keynote was Spotlight. I bet that a new file system is required to drive the operation. I bet the upgrade will nessarly be destructive to current data and settings. An upgrade from a panther system should be fine for some. The currently selling emac will meet the min specs I am sure. Sorry G3 or G4 < 1.25 Ghz. G4's may need a memory upgrade to work.

 

[Mac-Xpert]

XP-ish, Finder looking like it's parents are Windows Explorer and the first level of the Start Menu. Spotlight, looks like XP's task pane and Explorer grouping. Mind you, this doesn't bother me. I prefer XP so I'm thinking OS X is just getting better and better

I think Apple gets slammed because when they reach out and borrow a few ideas, they still claim "Invented here"

Oh really? And where does XP use meta-data to search through files? And where is the expose-like feature in XP? And what about the dashboard and the automator.

Right, they're nowhere to be found. It was Microsoft that copied elements from Mac-OS-X for XP and not the other way around. Only in your (or Bill's ) dreams XP would be as good as Mac-OS-X.

Sorry kid, try again...

 

[billyboy]

As long as we have choice, bring it on

I love the idea of expose-d utilities, but at the same time I hope developers give us the options not to use Dashboard, and if we want, to stick with menubar icons or Konfabulator or whatever tickles our fancy.

For instance, just looking at my menu bar, I think a lot of the shortcuts will end up better off in Dashboard - calculator, Menu Calendar, iAddress, sidekick, Menu Preferences - so I hope the developers of those products will be able to get their programmes Dashboarded. On the other hand, the Synergy iTunes controls and song displays, The Unread, system uptime, classic, sound icon, international, fast user switching and iClock will be (for me) better left on permanent display in the menu bar ie They are neat, I refer to them pretty much all the time, and to be one click away in a Dashboard would make those particular utilities less useful.

 

[superstring]

Under-hyped Features

First time poster here...

I admit, when I looked through Apple's website, I felt the new features were not all that exciting, but after watching parts of the keynote, it is quite a bit more exciting that I initially thought.

Smart Folders in the Finder - One thing that seems only subtly implied is that with Spotlight, you can make use of smart folders in the finder. Imagine making a folder that shows all documents modified in the last day and putting that in the side dock. It would automatically update, and, be accesible to every program in the open and close dialog box! And that is just the tip of the iceberg. You could set up a smart folder for that would show all images regardless of what subfolders they are located in. And from the demo, it is blazingly, almost instantaneously fast. I am very organized with my folder structures too (as another poster mentioned as a reason for not needing Spotlight), but this opens up a whole new world of organizing that will further enhance the organized person's ability to find information and files.

Cross Application Simple Automation - I have never taken the plunge and tried to write any scripts, but have often wished I could automate and get programs to work together. The new visual automating feature looks extremely intuitive and simple. From the demo at WWDC, he built a script that would download linked images (the high res images linked from the thumbnails), create a photo album and import them into iPhoto, then make a slide show and import it into iDVD. All with just a few clicks of the mouse! and the script could then be saved and would appear in a drop down menu when using Safari. This kind of simple scripting is HUGE. You can essentially add features to existing programs to make them do whatever you want (I am sure there are limits, but still, this is something that will just continue to evolve).

Realtime Effects at the System Level - Having access to the library of realtime effects that are being built into the system opens up a ton of new possiblities for applications. Imagine programs making use of the blur and colorizing filters to make deemphasize background windows and shifting the focus to the top window you are using. There are millions of other opportunities to use these features and since they rely on the graphics card, they can be easily implemented without slowing down other application processes that use the main processor. and programs like Motion even use this to create realtime content manipulation. And Steve did even mention in the address that he would hope that Adobe would use this to build realtime effects into Photoshop (imagine the benchmark comparisons -Guassian blur on 300M file - Photoshop running on Powermac 1.6GHz single proc 0.00001 seconds - same test on top of line Dual Pentium machine 30.0000 seconds - i made these numbers up and they are just for example)

Anyway, I guess I see a huge potential that will be built right into the OS. And considering the lead time that developers will have to implement even more of these features, by the time this does come out, it will seem like one of the most feature packed releases ever (just my two cents).

 

[MorganX]

>>Oh really? And where does XP use meta-data to search through files?<<

I've already given my thoughts on current OS X finder borrowing form Explorer. And the presentation of Spotlight mimicing Explorer's "Arrange by groups" and the task pane. Regarding the Tiger Demo/Alpha of meta-search that is not in the hands of users yet, Longhorn 4074 and previous builds; Been in development and in testers hands long before Steve Jobs just invented it.

>>And where is the expose-like feature in XP?<<

Windows has had the most functional part of this for 10 years. Tile/Cascade/Minimize. The rest is covered by the taskbar (more efficiently IMO) and the show desktop toggle and MDI (the lack of which is still a major weakness of the Mac OS to many).

>>And what about the dashboard and the automator.<<

The Dashboard in the preannounced tiger would be the dashboard in the Alpha Longhorn, including RSS feeds. Again, Lonhorn dasboard is a better implementation IMO.

Automator, with the exception of task scheduling and scripting (that would be Windows task scheduler) Windows has no equivalent. However, I would say these ideas were borrowed mainly from Adobe and task scheduler and given the Apple polish. Which is nice, but not invented or revolutionary.

>>Right, they're nowhere to be found. It was Microsoft that copied elements from Mac-OS-X for XP and not the other way around.<<

You mean like taskbar (dock) and Finder (explorer) protected memory, window management (i.e. Expose), fast user switching, When did mac OS get a built in TCP/IP stack and dial-up configuration right? iChat (messenger), Encrypting file system (of sorts). For anyone that knows better, this you copied me crap is just ridiculous, and that's why Steve Jobs' is PT Barnum to the vast majority of the IT world.

>>Only in your (or Bill's ) dreams XP would be as good as Mac-OS-X.<<

Only certain types of Mac users dream about this sort of thing. The equivalent in the PC side of the fence dream about case mods and liquid cooling. Edit: the PC side also, unfortunately, dream about writing the next big virus.

 

[quasan]

another feature I saw in tiger is that you will have a dyndns if you are a .mac user the name of your dyndns will be computername.accountname.mac.com

 

[MorganX]

I stand corrected

Someone was kind enough to gently let me know that there are hundreds of automation apps with much of the functionality of Automator for XP. Mostly shareware and freeware such as www.robotask.com.

However, clearly Tiger's Automator has much much more polish. The polish and UI is one reason I don't think freeware/shareware/oss will ever compete with proprietary software companys. Anyway, they're not "in" the OS, yet.

 

[Mac-Xpert]

Regarding the Tiger Demo/Alpha of meta-search that is not in the hands of users yet, Longhorn 4074 and previous builds; Been in development and in testers hands long before Steve Jobs just invented it.

Hmm, well actually the meta-search was a BeOs idea. And BeOs was founded by ex-apple employees. So no, Apple is not the first one with this, but they certainly did not need Microsoft for this. And no it's not in peoples hands right now, but it will be early 2005, while Longhorn will likely not be out till 2007. So Mac-Os will have this feature long before Longhorn does in a released system.

Windows has had the most functional part of this for 10 years. Tile/Cascade/Minimize. The rest is covered by the taskbar (more efficiently IMO) and the show desktop toggle and MDI (the lack of which is still a major weakness of the Mac OS to many).

The windows solution isn't quite as elegant as the Expose function in Mac-OS, which gives you a overview of all windows at ones.

I (and I'm sure most Mac users) am glad that Os-X does NOT feature MDI. MDI does not allow for easy drag and drop, and it neither allows you to have two documents in two applications open at the same time and position them on the screen in such a way that you can look at them both and easily copy elements (or text) between them. I much prefer the Mac-Os way of doing things. (hint: that's why I use the Mac.. )

The Dashboard in the preannounced tiger would be the dashboard in the Alpha Longhorn, including RSS feeds. Again, Lonhorn dasboard is a better implementation IMO.

The Dashboard seems like a flexible function that relies also on third party development, so who knows what it's features will be.

Automator, with the exception of task scheduling and scripting (that would be Windows task scheduler) Windows has no equivalent. However, I would say these ideas were borrowed mainly from Adobe and task scheduler and given the Apple polish. Which is nice, but not invented or revolutionary.

I don't care if it's not revolutionary, If it's useful, that's enough for me.

You mean like taskbar (dock) and Finder (explorer) protected memory, window management (i.e. Expose), fast user switching, When did mac OS get a built in TCP/IP stack and dial-up configuration right? iChat (messenger), Encrypting file system (of sorts). For anyone that knows better, this you copied me crap is just ridiculous, and that's why Steve Jobs' is PT Barnum to the vast majority of the IT world.

The dock, was already available in Next step, long before windows. Protected memory (and things like Pre-emptive multitasking) where already available in unix. The finder was already available in 1984. And Explorer was based on Netscape Navigator. So I don't see your point here.

The reason that I first responded to your post, was that you seem to imply that Windows was the inspiration for Mac-OS which is just nonsense. Sure Windows has it's own merits and handy functions. But everybody knows that Microsoft "lends" more from Apple than the other way around.

BTW, why do you spend so much time on a Apple board if you like XP so much? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[MorganX]

And no it's not in peoples hands right now, but it will be early 2005, while Longhorn will likely not be out till 2007. So Mac-Os will have this feature long before Longhorn does in a released system.

That's the point. What is the point? Longhorn is in people's and developers hands. But Apple may release first. Hmmm. This means what to whom?


>>MDI does not allow for easy drag and drop, and it neither allows you to have two documents in two applications open at the same time and position them on the screen in such a way that you can look at them both and easily copy elements (or text) between them. I much prefer the Mac-Os way of doing things. (hint: that's why I use the Mac.. )<<

I've owned several Macs, and started on Apples. I can tell you I really don't follow you here. The ability to manages open Windows has been one of the biggest benefits of Windows over the years. You have to windows open, position them next to each other and drag and drop. Want it perfect, use tile vertically, or horizontally for spreadsheets and drag and drop. See pics.


>>I don't care if it's not revolutionary, If it's useful, that's enough for me.<<

(Automator) It's useful, slick, a great new implementation of existing technology. All these existing pieces are now infinitely more useful to non-programmers and programmers alike. So if we agree on that, why does it appear we're arguing?

>>The dock, was already available in Next step, long before windows. Protected memory (and things like Pre-emptive multitasking) where already available in unix.<<

No argument here. But that won't stop Steve Jobs from claiming to be the first to have them.

>>The finder was already available in 1984.<<

But it didn't begin to mimic Windows Explorer/My Computer until OS X.

>>And Explorer was based on Netscape Navigator. So I don't see your point here.<<

Windows Explorer is GUI presentation of the root-file tree metaphor extended to all logical system resources as well as physical (device manager.)

>>The reason that I first responded to your post, was that you seem to imply that Windows was the inspiration for Mac-OS which is just nonsense. Sure Windows has it's own merits and handy functions. But everybody knows that Microsoft "lends" more from Apple than the other way around.<<

The MacOS came before Windows, they both got jump started by PARC. It's not my intended implication that Windows has been the inspiration for Mac OS. In response to Jobs' outlandishness, I do imply that OS X has been borrowing more from Windows of late. And the whole "Copy this Redmond" theme of WWDC makes Apple look foolish to most people in IT. Maybe Steve doesn't know, Redomond doesn't care what he says. It is more insulting to potential Apple using PC People.

"I" don't really have a problem with borrowing. That's how it works. Half-Life 2 borrowed from id's Castle Wolfenstein. But they are two entirely different beasts. That's how it's worked since everyone borrowed their ideas, and hired staff, from Xerox PARC.

>>BTW, why do you spend so much time on a Apple board if you like XP so much? Doesn't make sense to me.<<

That depends, when you say Apple do you me Mac platform or Apple Inc. You can like one without the other, nothing will happen to you. Seriously though, why do I have to dislike XP to own or like a lot of things about Macintosh? Do you know that most 30-somethings in the IT profession started on Apple II's? And Vic 20s, Trash-80s, and Timex Sinclairs.

Let's not get into age old debates that have no end. But I do want clarification on your opinoin of MDI.

(in Z-order)
1) multiple docs (Can drag and drop between them as is)
2) right click, cascade (can drag to taskbar icon, proggy comes to top, drop)
3) 2 word docs (can drag and drop as is)
4) if neat freak, right click & tile vertically, drag and drop (tile horizontally for spreadsheets and the like)

Been this way for a long time now. To me Expose is giving pseudo MDI to OS X and it's been loooooong overdue.

 

[jakemikey]

Comparing Expose to Windows' tile/cascade feature brings one word to mind: desperation.

It's a desperate comparison.

From your profile I see that you're (MorganX) not running Panther, so I assume you may have seen Expose in a store, maybe in a demo or something somewhere, but you certainly don't use Expose on a daily basis, and you're not intimately familiar with its functionality. Your apparent lack of experience with Expose explains your comparison to Windows' tile/cascade. About the only thing they have in common is that all open windows can be revealed. Expose is much more. It organizes, classifies, and manages all open windows dynamically. The user can effortlessly organize windows in many different ways, all with very little input.

It's pointless to argue about "features", or "things that my OS can do". If you look at it like that, there's very little difference between OS X and Windows. And as time goes by and OSs become more advanced, there will probably be even fewer "differences". What DOES differ is HOW these features are implemented. That is where OS X and Windows differ dramatically. Apple has an undeniable talent for novel implementation of old or even contemporary ideas. Microsoft doesn't.

When you think about the vast resources MS has, compare that to Apple's resources, Windows just becomes a joke compared to OS X. With the weight MS has behind it, OS X should never in any universe be competetive with Windows, but it is...it's even better (by that I mean better implemented).

I use Windows every day in my lab. It's apparent that you (MorganX) don't have a balanced Mac/Windows daily routine, so that gives your comments on current OS X developments vs. XP/Longhorn less credibility (nothing personal, it's just a fact). I wouldn't presume to go into a Longhorn forum and talk about why Tiger is better than Longhorn.

 

[Freg3000]

Comparing Expose to Windows' tile/cascade feature brings one word to mind: desperation.

It's a desperate comparison.

From your profile I see that you're (MorganX) not running Panther, so I assume you may have seen Expose in a store, maybe in a demo or something somewhere, but you certainly don't use Expose on a daily basis, and you're not intimately familiar with its functionality. Your apparent lack of experience with Expose explains your comparison to Windows' tile/cascade. About the only thing they have in common is that all open windows can be revealed. Expose is much more. It organizes, classifies, and manages all open windows dynamically. The user can effortlessly organize windows in many different ways, all with very little input.

It's pointless to argue about "features", or "things that my OS can do". If you look at it like that, there's very little difference between OS X and Windows. And as time goes by and OSs become more advanced, there will probably be even fewer "differences". What DOES differ is HOW these features are implemented. That is where OS X and Windows differ dramatically. Apple has an undeniable talent for novel implementation of old or even contemporary ideas. Microsoft doesn't.

When you think about the vast resources MS has, compare that to Apple's resources, Windows just becomes a joke compared to OS X. With the weight MS has behind it, OS X should never in any universe be competetive with Windows, but it is...it's even better (by that I mean better implemented).

I use Windows every day in my lab. It's apparent that you (MorganX) don't have a balanced Mac/Windows daily routine, so that gives your comments on current OS X developments vs. XP/Longhorn less credibility (nothing personal, it's just a fact). I wouldn't presume to go into a Longhorn forum and talk about why Tiger is better than Longhorn.

There was a farmer who had a dog and Bingo was his name-o.

B-I-N-G-O!

You hit the nail on the head, and saved me a lot of time from having to write the same thing.

 

[MorganX]

Comparing Expose to Windows' tile/cascade feature brings one word to mind: desperation.

It's a desperate comparison.

That's a great Apple love letter. All adjectives and no substance.

Now why don't you tell me specifically what technical abilities of Expose aren't catch-up to the Windows management Windows has had for years in Tile/Cascade/Minimize/Show Desktop.

Mac users see Expose as something revolutionary because they've had a single focus UI until recently. Windows users have never had unmanageable Window clutter or difficulty finding and managing active Windows.

Now, factually speaking, reply to my comparison. Ok, it's desperate, now how so? Just commenting that Expose is so much more is not good enough. How is it "so much more." You went on and on about Apple's "undeniable talent and all this other BS," now go ahead and tell me about the revolutionary features and functionality of Expose as it relates to the debate I was having with Mac-expert. I'm waiting. And you're right, I sold my iMac a month before Panther was released. But I didn't need to use Expose more than once to get a pretty damn good idea about what it does. Now enlighten me on what I'm missing from lack of daily use to realize the revolutionary benefits of basic Multiple Window Management that only Apple has been lacking the past 10 years or so.

Edit: You do know every window has a it's own title, the active Window is always highlighted in the title bar and on the taskbar. Things of this nature Expose adds to OS X are just routine, housekeeping that only Mac OS' have lacked until recently.

 

[whooleytoo]

That's a great Apple Love/MS hate letter. All adjectives and not substance.

Now why don't you tell me specifically what technical abilities of Expose aren't catch-up to the Windows management Windows has had for years in Tile/Cascade/Minimize/Show Desktop.

After doing a Show Desktop in Windows, how do you restore all windows to their original positions with one button click?

How do you do a Show Desktop, then drag from the desktop to one of the windows you just hid?

How do you 'untile' windows from their tiled positions back to their original locations?

How do you tile all windows in all applications with one button press?

etc..etc..

 

[MorganX]

>>After doing a Show Desktop in Windows, how do you restore all windows to their original positions with one button click<<

Right Click > Show Open Windows - After you Show Desktop, it becomes, Show Open Windows. Since most of the time using a Mac OS you have to consume time with shortcuts keys you can use WindowsKey-D. It's a show desktop/open windows toggle. All Windows are restored to their original positions.

>>How do you do a Show Desktop, then drag from the desktop to one of the windows you just hid?<<

Drag the item to the application button on the taskbar and hover. The Folder or Application will pop open, Drop. If it is a group of apps, say 10 Explorer Folders, hover over the group button, the button will popup a list of all the grouped folders, hover over the one you want it will open on the desktop, Drop.

I will concede the group functionality was not present pre-XP.

>>How do you 'untile' windows from their tiled positions back to their original locations?<<

Right Click > Undo Tile - Undo Tile only becomes availabe after you have done a tile.

>>How do you tile all windows in all applications with one button press?<<

Right Click > Tile Horizontally or Vertically.

Edit: One note here, all child Windows are contained in a parent Window. So, you don't have to worry about all the floating palettes in Photoshop and Office. They will be managed in the parent Window. Adobe is the exception. They leave the Tool palette hanging as a separate entity. All other palettes are well behaved.

None of that is particularly exciting. It's basic Window management. Until OS X, maybe Mac OS didn't need it. Expose does do it's window management with nice effects though. After this post, let's just end it at that.

 

[whooleytoo]

Thanks MorganX, I actually wasn't aware of many of those!

Not that I'm trying to weasel out of my original point, but the Windows implementations of the same concepts is considerably more cumbersome in my opinion (more keypresses/clicks required to perform the same operations). Plus, the way Windows tiles windows makes it nigh on useless for window identification when lots of windows are open - you're left with little more than a menubar and scrollbars for each window. And I don't know how many of these options would be available if you're using an app which has the taskbar hidden (you'd be required to switch out of the app to use these..)

Finicky points perhaps, but the devil's in the details..

 

[jakemikey]

Now why don't you tell me specifically what technical abilities of Expose aren't catch-up to the Windows management Windows has had for years in Tile/Cascade/Minimize/Show Desktop.

I was referring specifically to how Expose handles grouping by applications. Sure, both Windows and OS X can do "all or nothing"-type window management, but as far as I know, tile can't dynamically display windows according to app and then fluidly cycle to the next app. I hit F10, it shows all open Word docs, nothing else. I hit command +` and it cycles through all open apps, each time showing only that app's windows (scaled, not cropped as in tile), Photoshop, Safari, Finder, etc. Sure, Windows has contextual menus than can do a lot of what Expose does, but there's no unified concept that was designed to handle as many scenarios as Expose, and that do it as well.

This whole exchange just supports my main point. It's pointless for us to argue about features (I say, "Expose does this very well" you say, "well I can kinda do the same thing in Windows with this command..." I say, "okay, but how about this..." and it just goes on). They do a lot of the same things. The point is implementation. Expose is fluid. It's like comparing an iPod to one of the other various and sundry MP3 players out there. They do the same thing, but how many people lust after a Dell Jukebox?

Now with all that said, I admit pre-Panther OS X was in a world of hurt as far as window management goes.


Have a great 4th of July weekend, everybody!!!

 

[broken_keyboard]

- Core Image/Video: Wow. I've never know a company to put this much in an API. This should make the Mac the platform of choice for video app writers. If there is such as thing as a cool API, this is it

- Spotlight search: I don't know what else you could ask for in a local search. Looks really good. If they could get it to work across the corporate network it could be a killer app to get Macs in the workplace.

- Safari RSS: Maybe a bit ahead of it's time. Because at this point in time of a lot of sites keep their HTML more up to date than their RSS (they are slack) so services that scrape HTML such as news.google.com will give better results.

- Automater: People have been trying to get visual scripting right for a long time. I don't know whether they have done it, I would have to try it out for myself to know.

- iChat AV: Improved video quality and big conferencing are very cool. If only this great app was compatible with the Microsoft chat network.

 

[Mac-Xpert]

That's the point. What is the point? Longhorn is in people's and developers hands. But Apple may release first. Hmmm. This means what to whom?

Obviously only released systems count. The Tiger preview is also in developers (that's peoples) hands by your reasoning, so again your argument is moot.

I've owned several Macs, and started on Apples. I can tell you I really don't follow you here. The ability to manages open Windows has been one of the biggest benefits of Windows over the years. You have to windows open, position them next to each other and drag and drop. Want it perfect, use tile vertically, or horizontally for spreadsheets and drag and drop. See pics.

All right I have to confess that I don't use XP that much. So you’re right that in certain applications you can put documents side by side. BUT Windows is not very consistent at it. You might like to try the same thing in Excel. I bring this up because I regularly had difficulties using Excel on the PC and not being able to open more than one window at a time. You can do this easily with the Mac version. It appears that you have to re-launch excel to open another window. You can't simply open a new document within the same application, while having another one open. It works differently in other apps like Word. That's not very intuitive or consistent. Anyway I still don't see the benefit of having the document window with the whole menu bar and panels all in one window. It only takes up unnecessary screen space. I only find it confusing and therefore don't see any benefit of MDI. Also the window cascading feature of XP still can't touch the convenience of seeing the content of each open window with one keystroke. Imagine you have 20 Photoshop images open and you want to look at them all at ones while being able to go back to the one you are working in. The cascading/tile feature of XP won't be any good for that. Expose will allow you to do just that with one keystroke. Another thing with MDI is that many (less experienced I guess) users have the tendency to close the applications by clicking on the X symbol of the window while the really only want to close the document. I see my fellow co-workers on PC's doing this all the time when they for instance open a PDF file in Acrobat and then want to close it to open another one. They close Acrobat instead of just the PDF file. So they’re constantly restarting Acrobat to look at different PDF's. Now you might say that this is because they don't use the system in the right way, but what I'm saying is that the MDI system is just not intuitive, otherwise these sort of things wouldn't happen in the first place.

(Automator) It's useful, slick, a great new implementation of existing technology. All these existing pieces are now infinitely more useful to non-programmers and programmers alike. So if we agree on that, why does it appear we're arguing?

I guess we aren't on that point.

>>The dock, was already available in Next step, long before windows. Protected memory (and things like Pre-emptive multitasking) where already available in unix.<<

No argument here. But that won't stop Steve Jobs from claiming to be the first to have them.

Hmm. Next was also owned/started by Steve Jobs, so one might say he was the first for some of these things after all.

>>The finder was already available in 1984.<<

But it didn't begin to mimic Windows Explorer/My Computer until OS X.

>>And Explorer was based on Netscape Navigator. So I don't see your point here.<<

Windows Explorer is GUI presentation of the root-file tree metaphor extended to all logical system resources as well as physical (device manager.)

First of all I don't really like the more Explorer like column view option in the finder of Mac-Os-X and prefer the Os-9 like list view style. That being said I still don't think apple took it from Microsoft. Instead I again have to point to NextStep. Here is a link you might like to check out to learn more about NextStep which formed the base for the current Mac-Os-X.

The MacOS came before Windows, they both got jump started by PARC. It's not my intended implication that Windows has been the inspiration for Mac OS. In response to Jobs' outlandishness, I do imply that OS X has been borrowing more from Windows of late. And the whole "Copy this Redmond" theme of WWDC makes Apple look foolish to most people in IT. Maybe Steve doesn't know, Redomond doesn't care what he says. It is more insulting to potential Apple using PC People.

But Apple didn't copy/borrow quite as much from XP as you seem to imply in your previous posts. I do agree that it is not too smart to say things like "Copy this Redmond"

>>BTW, why do you spend so much time on a Apple board if you like XP so much? Doesn't make sense to me.<<

That depends, when you say Apple do you me Mac platform or Apple Inc. You can like one without the other, nothing will happen to you. Seriously though, why do I have to dislike XP to own or like a lot of things about Macintosh? Do you know that most 30-somethings in the IT profession started on Apple II's? And Vic 20s, Trash-80s, and Timex Sinclairs.

I mean on a web forum dedicated to Apple and to the Macintosh. In other words this forum. I don't say you have to dislike XP at all. But it just seems funny to me that you come out here to criticize Mac-OS-X and state somewhat unfounded claims that Apple borrows their ideas from Microsoft, and claiming you like XP better. You won't find me posting 800+ messages on a XP/Microsoft dedicated forum saying how much better Mac-OS-X is

 

[hansen]

copy copy copy

is it so terrible to be inspired by others? It might be that the MS guys did some useful stuff on their own that Apple can use in OS X. Apple copied electricity from Ørsted with no credits! I mean everything we all do is based on history. Copy/improve is how we move forward.

 

[Mac-Xpert]

is it so terrible to be inspired by others? It might be that the MS guys did some useful stuff on their own that Apple can use in OS X. Apple copied electricity from Ørsted with no credits! I mean everything we all do is based on history. Copy/improve is how we move forward.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with being inspired by others. I do however find it annoying when someone (like the way MorganX did) starts to make all sorts of unfounded/incorrect claims that Mac-OS-X in getting it's features from XP. With comments like

XP-ish, Finder looking like it's parents are Windows Explorer

That's just silly and simply not correct as I here above stated.

That's all..

 

[MorganX]

>>I mean on a web forum dedicated to Apple and to the Macintosh. In other words this forum. I don't say you have to dislike XP at all. But it just seems funny to me that you come out here to criticize Mac-OS-X<<

Disagreeing about how "revolutionary" certain features are, are not criticizing it. My biggest criticism of Mac OS over the years has been the lack of decent Window management which Expose actually addresses.

>>and state somewhat unfounded claims that Apple borrows their ideas from Microsoft,<<

I think we've pretty much determined, and many before us have as well, that that's a matter of opinion.

>>and claiming you like XP better. <<

I do. I like a lot of things including some Apple products. One thing I don't like is Steve Jobs and his cult. Other than that, Apple is like every other company. I like some things, dislike others. Besides, if it weren't for people like me who like XP (with no regard for whether or not we like Macs as well), who would Mac users have to claim superiority over? And if there's no one to claim superiority over, can you still be superior?

 

[MacFan25]

I'm really looking forward to Tiger. The new features seem great, and they all seem like things that I will actually use. First, the new video code, H.264 is great. I was really amazed at how much better it helped the videoconference screenshot that is shown on Apple.com. I believe that it is really going to help Quicktime.

Spotlight is one of those features that probably should have been implemented a while back into the OS, but... I think that I will definitley be using this feature a lot. I will probably find myself saving a lot of time from this feature, since I won't have to sort through tons of folders in the Finder anymore.

I believe I will also use Dashboard quite a bit. One of the reasons I don't use Stickies too much, is because I don't want to have to open it up all the time, and then close it. Nor do I want stickies all over my desktop. But if I can just hit a key, and they come up, then that problem will be solved.

It will be interesting to see how much Tiger will cost, and when they will start taking orders. I would say it will be $129 like Panther, which I would be willing to pay for Tiger.

 

[mmmbop]

>>Right, they're nowhere to be found. It was Microsoft that copied elements from Mac-OS-X for XP and not the other way around.<<

You mean like taskbar (dock)

Microsoft borrowed the idea for the taskbar from RISC OS, which had it way back in the early nineties.

Rarely is something entirely new found. But Apple above most have a knack for getting the implementation right.