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WWDC - One Day More... Final Thoughts

Dell v Apple

Dell Dimension XPS

Pentium® 4 Processor at 3GHz with
800MHz front side bus
1024MB DDR SDRAM at 400Mhz
120GB Ultra ATA/100 7200RPM Hard Drive
4x DVD+RW/+R Drive w/CD-RW including Roxio's Easy CD Creator®
128MB DDR ATI RADEON? 9800 Graphics Card with TV-Out and DVI (can do dual monitors)
56K PCI Telephony Modem
Dell Gigabit Ethernet
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition
Dell Music, Movie and Photo Software

$2,508.00 (add approx $198.00 shipping and handling)

$2,706.00

Apple Power Mac

Power Mac G4 Dual 1.42GHz w/2MB L3 per proc.
167MHz front side bus
512MB DDR333 SDRAM (PC2700)
120GB Ultra ATA drive
Apple SuperDrive
ATI Radeon 9700 Pro w/128MB DDR
56K internal modem
Gigabit Ethernet
Mac OS X
iApps

$2,999.00

Processor: DELL, admit it, PCs are faster
Bus: DELL, no comparison
Ram: DELL, faster and more of it
HD: DRAW
Optical Drive: APPLE, hardware is the same, but Mac is easier to use
Graphics Card: DELL
Modem: DRAW
Ethernet: DRAW
OS: APPLE (XP isn't horrible, but it is crappier and deteriorates with time)
Software: APPLE, (for software included, for software you can purchase, DELL)

Overall, be honest here, the Dell is the better buy. Hardware wise, there is no comparison. It would have been worse had there been the same amount of RAM in each machine. The Apple system is a joke. Software wise, the Mac is better but Windows XP isn?t the **** hole everyone here makes it out to be. Now lets come back tomorrow and see if the situation is different. For those of you who think i'm trolling, I'm posting this on a dual 1.25 G4 (the very machine I'm criticizing). Now come out with a 970 Powerbook so I can buy one Apple.
 
So you're saying the difference in price is what at the most $500 when you make the ram quantity equal. I'm sorry but the speed difference and the much greater software package on top of the more friendly OS makes $500 look like nothing. For 98% of most users out there they will never notice the 10 seconds in a day that the Dell system might have saved them on processing time. I still say though that the Mac has less maintenance and less down time equallying more work time. Also the as many pros put it the workflow is just much much better on the Mac and it takes less time to learn which equals more time to work.
 
Random and kinda of off topic

Lets say the Uber all in one world peace machine is announced at WWDC and is shipping immediatly.

Would I be able to get my education discount?

Do they release to both stores same time?
anyone have any experiences with this?

They better not make me wait any longer for my 15"
I have projects Scheduled for next week and I hate my "home made laptop" (a mid tower PC I built and put a shoulder strap on, lol) I don't let my G4 tower take road trips.
 
Originally posted by Frobozz
Anyone here getting snug with their ignore list besides me? :)
Click to expand...
Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't even know such a feature existed until you mentioned it. Very, very handy.
 
Re: Random and kinda of off topic

Originally posted by digi002
Would I be able to get my education discount?

Do they release to both stores same time?
anyone have any experiences with this?
Click to expand...

yes, yes, and yes. three and a half years ago when the 500mhz G4 was released at macworld tokyo, i was able to order mine from the apple store for education scant moments after the keynote.
 
Re: Random and kinda of off topic

Originally posted by digi002
Lets say the Uber all in one world peace machine is announced at WWDC and is shipping immediatly.

Would I be able to get my education discount?

Do they release to both stores same time?
anyone have any experiences with this?

They better not make me wait any longer for my 15"
I have projects Scheduled for next week and I hate my "home made laptop" (a mid tower PC I built and put a shoulder strap on, lol) I don't let my G4 tower take road trips.
Click to expand...

I ordered my Dual/GHz/DDR back in August 2 hours after they were announced on the eductaional discount. I have always worked up the deal online and then called them. Sometimes you get some really interesting help over the phone including additional discounts and/or accesories.
 
since when?

just wondering...since when did macintosh users care about the price about their product when it comes to the high end? isn't the whole point of buying a mac to have a better overall computing experience despite the price? don't we have different values in the first place? and besides, we KNOW are compuers are better in the first place, and now that we have IBM on our side...we'll be able to shell out new competitive machines quickly. i think the old days of the G4s lagging behind are over, just 12 more hours of it guys! the G4 is outdated, and everybody is making comparisons of G4 hardware that was updated in january to dells tops of the line stuff, where's the logic in that?
 
Re: Dell vs. Apple

A couple of things you forgot...

Norton Antivirus for Windows

Not only the cost, but the time to install, download updates, etc...

Second, the costs should be amortized over the life of the products. If you really want to make this decision based on costs, then productive output should also be evaluated over the life of the products as well.

My sister had a Dell. It lasted 2 years. Her Mac is now 3 years old and still in use. The Mac cost a bit more than the Dell, but is better in *many* ways in terms of user experience.

The Dell may have had a faster CPU, bus, memory, and graphics card, but that speed difference was totally eaten up by all the problems she had with the Dell. Further time was wasted installing and updating Norton Antivirus.

And here's the kicker... During a period of time when she was lax about updating Norton, her Dell got a virus. It wiped out everything. Photos, documents, etc...
 
Okay, earlier today (June 22, 2003) I went to the Dell site to configure some systems in preparation for tomorrow's WWDC keynote. I'm not a complete newbie to the Dell site having visited there several times over the last few years, however, I must say that their site sucks big time in comparison to the clear, well designed, and functional Apple Store. Anyway, I selected a top-end and low-end system from each store and tried to make similarly configured systems. There is no way that you can match systems exactly, so I attempted to match memory configurations, drives, peripheral ports, and basic hardware features. The Dells were configured without displays ("Video Ready").

Hopefully this will bring to an end the long and largely off-topic discussion concerning Dell versus Apple pricing. This may also prove useful after tomorrow's WWDC keynote.

Here is what I found (prices do not include shipping or taxes):

** Low-End Systems **
-------------------------
Dell Dimension 8300
@ 2.6GHz $1269 (price includes $100 mail-in rebate).

Power Mac G4
@ 1.0GHz $1599 (price includes upgrade to 512MB RAM).

** High-End Systems **
-------------------------
Dell Dimension XPS
@ 3GHz $2259 (price includes $100 mail-in rebate).

Power Mac G4
Dual @ 1.43GHz $2699 (standard configuration).
-------------------------
-------------------------

**Dell Advantages**
Low end $330 cheaper.
High end $440 cheaper.
Dells offer more options, could be made even lower cost by eliminating DVI/dual monitor support and/or Firewire (Firewire is std. on XPS).

USB 2.0
Faster and higher-end graphics cards (required for DVI and dual monitor support).
AGP 8X graphics port.
Multi-channel audio output.
Includes legacy serial and parallel ports.

Includes bundled office application suite.

High-end Dell comes with free upgrade to 1GB RAM.
Low-end Dell offers significantly better processor performance than the 1GHz Power Mac G4. Low-end Dell also includes external speakers.

Dell offers free in-home service for one year.

**Apple Advantages**
One Firewire 800 and two Firewire 400 ports (Dell XPS has two Firewire 400 ports, Dell 8300 may only have one externally accessible Firewire 400 port).
Power Macs equipped as shown contain four empty PCI slots for additional expansion capabilities (Dells have fewer empty slots, use PCI slots for modem, 1Gb Ethernet (AFAIK), Firewire/sound card).
Power Macs are wireless ready.

iApps offer better integration over Dell's mix of third-party music, photo, and video tools (IMO).
Includes Developer tools (only an advantage for "geeks" and software developers).

No need for mail-in rebate.
Apple Store a much superior buying experience, easier to configure and determine choices (IMO).

-------------------------
-------------------------

Further details on the configurations:

** Low End **
-------------------------
Dell Dimension 8300 for $1269 (price includes $100 mail-in rebate)

2.6GHz Pentium IV, 512MB DDR SDRAM (free upgrade from std. 256MB), 60GB ATA100 HD, DVD-ROM and CD-R/W dual drives, Sound Blaster Audigy sound card (for Firewire support), Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers with Subwoofer (std. no extra cost), Logitech optical mouse, Dell Gigabit Ethernet, 56K PCI Data/Fax Modem, ATI Radeon 9800 Graphics w/128MB DDR video memory (required for DVI and dual monitor support), MS Windows XP Home Edition, WordPerfect Productivity Pack with Quicken New User Edition, Dell Jukebox, Dell Picture Studio, Dell Movie Studio Essentials.
-------------------------
-------------------------
Power Mac G4 for $1599

1GHz PowerPC G4, 512MB DDR SDRAM, 60GB Ultra ATA/100, DVD-ROM/CD-R/W Combo drive, built-in stereo audio in/out, built-in Gigabit Ethernet, built-in 56K internal modem, NVIDIA GeForce4 MX w/64MB DDR video memory, built-in FireWire 800, Bluetooth Ready, Airport Extreme Ready (802.11 b/g), Mac OS X, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, iCal, iChat, iSync, DVD Player, Mac OS X Mail, Acrobat Reader, Art Director?s Toolkit, FAXstf, Graphic Converter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner and Preview, Developer Tools, Project Builder, Applescript Studio, InterfaceBuilder, gcc compiler.
-------------------------

** High End **
-------------------------
Dell Dimension XPS for $2259 (price includes $100 mail-in rebate)

3.0GHz Pentium IV, 1GB DDR SDRAM (free upgrade from std. 512MB), 120 GB ATA100 HD, 4X DVD+R/RW DVD burner with Roxio's Easy CD Creator, Sound Blaster Audigy sound card (std.), Logitech optical mouse, Dell Enhanced Multimedia Keyboard, Dell Gigabit Ethernet, 56K PCI Data/Fax Modem, ATI Radeon 9800 Graphics w/128MB DDR video memory (required for DVI and dual monitor support), MS Windows XP Home Edition, WordPerfect Productivity Pack, Dell Jukebox, Dell Picture Studio, Dell Movie Studio Plus with Roxio VideoWave Movie Creator.
-------------------------
-------------------------
Power Mac G4 for $2699

Dual 1.42GHz PowerPC G4, 512MB DDR SDRAM, 120GB Ultra ATA/100, SuperDrive DVD-R DVD burner with iDVD, built-in stereo audio in/out, ATI Radeon 9000 Pro w/64MB DDR video memory, built-in FireWire 800, built-in Gigabit Ethernet, built-in 56K internal modem, Bluetooth Ready, Airport Extreme Ready (802.11 b/g), Mac OS X, iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, iDVD, iCal, iChat, iSync, DVD Player, Mac OS X Mail, Acrobat Reader, Art Director?s Toolkit, FAXstf, Graphic Converter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner and Preview, Developer Tools, Project Builder, Applescript Studio, InterfaceBuilder, gcc compiler.
-------------------------
 
Re: Re: Dell vs. Apple

Originally posted by MacSlut


And here's the kicker... During a period of time when she was lax about updating Norton, her Dell got a virus. It wiped out everything. Photos, documents, etc...
Click to expand...

I think the threat of viruses is overstated on PC's. I run NAV Corp edition on my desktop but nothing on my laptop. In my computing history I have never caught or detected a virus on my system. I attribute it to my computing method. If I don't know where it came from I don't open it. If it’s a download from a sketchy site I scan it. This is my 10 year anniversary running Windows (Do I throw a party or cry?) and I have yet to get any type of virus infection. Just as its smart to practice safe sex it’s also smart to practice safe computing. I don't know enough about OSX to speak intelligently about the system so I will ask. If someone wrote a virus and a person executed a program from an e-mail attachment does the logged in user have enough rights to the system to cause damage? If so I would say Macs users need safe computing habits as bad as PC users. If not then I will add it to my growing list of why I'm getting a powerbook this fall.

PS- What type of Dell? The Inspirons are designed for the general public and from everything I’ve heard the quality sucks butt. The Latitudes are more business oriented. (I have a Lat CSx.) and the quality is pretty dang high.
 
with SMP, yes, and i don't think they will even use that, but something more advanced. you can get servers with a lot more than 4 procs in them.

the 3d-rendered fakeness of that page should have clued you in just a little bit ;)
 
Re: since when?

Hi Weezer;

Dell was choosen for comparison out of the blue, there are certainly enough other players in the market. If people take a rational look at what is on the market {especially the new AMD stuff} the can develop some idea of what could possibly be coming from Apple. Obviously there are no gaurantees here, but there is a great deal of potential transfer from the PC world. In any event the Dell does indicate how far Apples G4 hardware lags the rest of the industry.

Some of that transfer may result from Apple being part of the HyperTransport team, and some of that from new memory and harddisk technology. Though some do not want to admit it there are performance issues with yesterdays (only a few hours now) MAC hardware. Understanding the capabilities and price points, of PC on the makret today, can give us a feel for what Apple will introduce later today.

Yes the user experience is an important part of the equation. Equally important is the ability to make good us of your hardware, by getting things done quickly. For some applications the hopefull introduction of the 970 PC's will put Apple in the peformance lead agian.


Originally posted by weezer160
just wondering...since when did macintosh users care about the price about their product when it comes to the high end? isn't the whole point of buying a mac to have a better overall computing experience despite the price? don't we have different values in the first place? and besides, we KNOW are compuers are better in the first place, and now that we have IBM on our side...we'll be able to shell out new competitive machines quickly. i think the old days of the G4s lagging behind are over, just 12 more hours of it guys! the G4 is outdated, and everybody is making comparisons of G4 hardware that was updated in january to dells tops of the line stuff, where's the logic in that?
Click to expand...
 
At this time I have to think that everybody on the planet knows how badly Motorola has impacted Apple. Which in a nut shell is what I've been trying to point out, Apple needs a 970 based machine or something like it really bad. Anybody that thinks that a nice user interface will make up for poor machine performance in the long run is out of touch. Just look at what is left of the minicomputer industry. I really do wish people would listen to what I've said, I'm not tring to trash Apple or start a flame war. I've been following the 970 since the microprocessor forum, there is a potential for Apple to get the PowerMac (or whatever its replacement is called) back on track. Apples very actions indicate that they know this is important also.

As far as Apple and computer sales go I'm not convinced that they have to make computers to survive in the future. The digital life style device, ITunes and other things we probally haven't heard about yet could easly replace the MAC line for revenue. Companies go through these sorts of transitions all the time. Now Steve Jobs has a personal interest in producing computers, he certainly is not going to drop the MAC line if he can avoid it, but in the long run he could be left with no alternative.

What is coming our way is very important to Apple. Lets just hope that the hardware is good enough to survive the first spasm of upgrades and continue to draw customers. The current PowerMacs have failed to do that. Apple is lucky to have a PowerBook line to make up for that.

Dave


Originally posted by MacBandit
Apple hasn't been the real setback here it has been Motorola. Apple has had no reason to upgrade the rest of there hardware as the system board already out matches the cpus. There just haven't been any PPC alternatives until now.

Also Apples computers sales make up 75% of there revenue so if it goes away Apple goes away. Apples not going anywhere they are actually doing quite well revenue wise many many times better then they have in the past and they stuck around back then. So with the fact that Apple is here to stay so is there hardware.
Click to expand...
 
Dell quality?

Originally posted by fpnc
Okay, earlier today (June 22, 2003) I went to the Dell site to configure some systems in preparation for tomorrow's WWDC keynote. I'm not a complete newbie to the Dell site having visited there several times over the last few years, however, I must say that their site sucks big time in comparison to the clear, well designed, and functional Apple Store. Anyway, I selected a top-end and low-end system from each store and tried to make similarly configured systems. There is no way that you can match systems exactly, so I attempted to match memory configurations, drives, peripheral ports, and basic hardware features. The Dells were configured without displays ("Video Ready").

Hopefully this will bring to an end the long and largely off-topic discussion concerning Dell versus Apple pricing. This may also prove useful after tomorrow's WWDC keynote.
-------------------------
Click to expand...

thank you for that selection. but there is one important point here which is never looked carefully.
the quality of the different components used. this count quite a lot. Is the HD in the DELL an IBM/Hitachi?? (especially if it is a 60 or 80GB, and for the low end model)
From which company is the RAM??
Dell has special design with their mobo, that way a friend of mine who just wanted to upgrade his graphic card, just realize that he is stacked with his "old" GeForce4 MX. Simply no space in that box... So one should really realize that in the PC world, they are selling PC not based on real performance, but on the GHz myth, and it is still the case nowdays.
what the use to get a 533MHz bus with a 3GHz processor, when you can have cheaper 800MHz wit a 2.4GHz, which will definitely, heat up much less and in addition have probably better performance and stability.
What you have in your machine counts a lot , there is no need to have a porsche engine in a FIAT punto, you have a feeling of speed but that all what you are enjoying, not the real porsche feeling.
I hope Steve is going to announce some cool computer this evening
 
Price drops on all ibooks and PowerBooks in Germany

The largest Apple reseller in germany, Gravis, gives huge discounts on EVERY laptop (iBooks and PowerBooks) from June 23rd to 25th.

http://www.gravis.de/messepreise/index.html

Checked other online-stores like "mactrade.de" and it seems similar. Doesn't that hint to new laptops beeing right behind the curtain and waiting to see the light at WWDC?
 
Originally posted by Shadowfax
to get this without doing any work, wizard, try this:
Click to expand...


Hey Shadowfax, what browser are you using? I like the look of MR in whatever it is.
 
Re: Re: Re: Dell vs. Apple

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
I think the threat of viruses is overstated on PC's. I run NAV Corp edition on my desktop but nothing on my laptop. In my computing history I have never caught or detected a virus on my system.
Click to expand...
I am glad that you have never caught a virus. From my experience though, viruses have been a big problem. Luckily, my company has deployed an automatically updating antivirus app on all of our PC desktops and e-mail servers. My AV program frequently detects viruses. Usually they are the Office macro viruses and are sent to me by clients I am working with. Our e-mail servers also catch a TON of viruses as evidenced by the occasional flood of virus blocked notifications I occassionally get. Keep in mind this is on a PC. On my Mac I have never once detected a virus (even a PC one).
 
Re: Dell quality?

Originally posted by eric67
there is one important point here which is never looked carefully.
the quality of the different components used. this count quite a lot.
Click to expand...

Ah, the voice of reason... That's why any comparison between Apple and Dell is very pointless. If you want to compare you should compare Apple towers to HP or Sony towers.

For me personally the sheer uglyness of the Dell corporate LOGO alone is reason enough to never ever consider to buy anything they produce, let alone a computer running Windows. Except in NIGHTMARES of course...
 
Lies, lies, and confusion...

Originally posted by h'biki
Surf the web. Check e-mail. Word process. Mp3s. Digital Photos.

With the exception of the last two, I could do the first three on my SE back in 1988.
Click to expand...

http://www.hixie.ch/commentary/web/history

THE WEB

1989: Tim Berners-Lee proposes that CERN get some system to organise
their info. [1]

1990: Early forms of HTML, HTTP invented by TBL. HTML designed to be
structural, with semantics but no presentation. Stylesheets
given as possible way of sprucing up documents.

"It is required that HTML be a common language between all
platforms. This implies no device-specific markup, or anything
which requires control over fonts or colors, for example. This
is in keeping with the SGML ideal." [2]

TBL releases first versions of his web browsers. [4]

HTML retrospec'ed as an SGML application.

1992: Line Mode web browser (1.1, 1.2) released

1993: NCSA Mosaic takes the Internet by storm; WWW proliferates at a
341,634% annual growth rate of service traffic.

Mosaic's Marc Andreessen adds <img> tag in completely
non-standard way (doesn't even follow SGML attribute syntax!).

So, two years before the first text-only browser came out you were surfing on your SE.

Hahaha...
 
Re: Lies, lies, and confusion...

Originally posted by AidenShaw
So, two years before the first text-only browser came out you were surfing on your SE.
Click to expand...
It's very good that you know your history, and furthermore that you went to the trouble of posting a link to and quote from a web site demonstrating this fact, but the point remains that one could have surfed the web on a Mac SE in 1988 had there been a web to surf. The task is simply not all that challenging. When you throw a megabyte of malformed HTML at a browser, yes, it has to chew on it for a while. But day-to-day browsing just isn't that difficult, computationally speaking. Nobody needs an Itanium 2 to read cnn.com.

And, for the record, I was doing something that was essentially digital photography on my Mac SE in 1988. It was one-bit black-and-white, but I remember scanning a line drawing for a tee-shirt design on a scanner at the computer lab, cleaning it up in Photoshop, and tracing it and finishing it with Illustrator 88. I remember the heartbreak of realizing that Illustrator's auto-trace function wasn't the magical panacea I had hoped for.

I think sometimes people forget that by the standards of the mid-1980s, we all have supercomputers on our desks. Remember that the next time you turn your nose up at a 400 MHz G3 or something.

(Listen, this is utterly off-topic, but I'd like to ask you a favor. Would you please reconsider your signature line? Not everybody has the same political opinions that you have, and not everybody wants to see political comment on macrumors.com. If you want to include a link to your home page or something that wouldn't bother me a bit. I just dislike seeing something that is both absurdly inflamatory and wildly irrelevant to the forum in question. Just my two cents. Please think about it.)
 
Will the Wintel world even know?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a sound?

If Apple releases the next Hal-2000 and they don’t market it properly will it make a difference?
 
Re: Lies, lies, and confusion...

Originally posted by AidenShaw
http://www.hixie.ch/commentary/web/history

THE WEB

1989: Tim Berners-Lee proposes that CERN get some system to organise
their info. [1]

1990: Early forms of HTML, HTTP invented by TBL. HTML designed to be
structural, with semantics but no presentation. Stylesheets
given as possible way of sprucing up documents.

"It is required that HTML be a common language between all
platforms. This implies no device-specific markup, or anything
which requires control over fonts or colors, for example. This
is in keeping with the SGML ideal." [2]

TBL releases first versions of his web browsers. [4]

HTML retrospec'ed as an SGML application.

1992: Line Mode web browser (1.1, 1.2) released

1993: NCSA Mosaic takes the Internet by storm; WWW proliferates at a
341,634% annual growth rate of service traffic.

Mosaic's Marc Andreessen adds <img> tag in completely
non-standard way (doesn't even follow SGML attribute syntax!).

So, two years before the first text-only browser came out you were surfing on your SE.

Hahaha...
Click to expand...
Maybe he got a beta version...:confused:

PS: Nice signature, I totally agree.
 
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