WWDC - One Day More... Final Thoughts

[wizard]

You have some very valid points but forget that not everyone runs windows on PC hardware. Linux is rock solid, and can relieve people of the headachs of the MS world.

To call using a G4 based machine living in the future is a bit of a stretch. Like it or not the G4 series has not keep up with the evolution of PC processors.

I agree with you that obsession with hardware can be a problem. In the case of Apple they have not even thought about it for the last few years. The PowerMac is so in need of a make over that anything less than a state of the art intro of new hardware by apple will be useless. Because like it or not Software does out run cpu performance.

I don't believe apple is going anywhere either. On the otherhand I don't know how long they will be producing Macs or computers in general. Lets face it if the Mac line revenue keeps shrinking with respect to all the other revenue centers it will go away.

It will be a shame to see this happen. But apple needs hardware that is a compelling motivator for people purchasing them. Software is only part of that equation, the actual hardware price is also part of that issue.


Thanks
Dave

You folks who are all bent out of shape about hardware specs apparently have very little knowledge about how computers work. Because hardware is all fine and dandy, but it doesn't DO anything -- software does. And if your software is garbage and your hardware rocks, you are still in trouble. This is what we call the HORRIBLY TWISTED WORLD OF WINDOWS! One little glitch and the whole thing goes down. Tell me, what makes a faster computer -- the latest specs, or never having to waste your time rebooting? Eh?

The rest of us are happy and thankful to be living in the future, thank you very much. My 4 year old G4 450 Sawtooth runs OS X like a champ, never EVER crashes, in fact barely has any probelms at all -- and keeps getting FASTER every time the operating system gets updated. Compare THAT to the Windows world! Show me a machine that shipped with Windows 98 that is now running XP, and runs XP just as well as it ran 98. PUH-LEEZE.

Hardware spec obsessees -- please go away, or at least limit your blathering to forums particularly set up to keep your weirdness away from the rest of us. Thank you.

Oh, and to the APPLE IS DOOOOOMED crowd, get a clue. Apple will never go anywhere -- nobody else wants to put down cash for R+D, after all. They'll let Apple do the R+D for the industry. They certainly don't have the innovative minds of the sort Apple employs, designing the future of computing. Firewire, wireless networking, etc. -- you tell me we would even be messing with that stuff today if not for Apple.

 

[mactastic]

Well, it's Sunday night, and high end powermac orders are set for 7-10 days to ship. Wonder if that will still be accurate 24 hours from now?

 

[h'biki]

Originally posted by wizard
You have some very valid points but forget that not everyone runs windows on PC hardware. Linux is rock solid, and can relieve people of the headachs of the MS world.

Name me one Linux GUI that is consistent.

I can't think of any. They're improving and improving and will get there. But they're not there yet.

I agree with you that obsession with hardware can be a problem. In the case of Apple they have not even thought about it for the last few years. The PowerMac is so in need of a make over that anything less than a state of the art intro of new hardware by apple will be useless. Because like it or not Software does out run cpu performance.

This I agree with. Moto hasn't kept the G4 torch burning at all. But Apple hasn't priced the PowerMac or its peripherals to match. They still *way* overprice for RAM. If they added 256-512 megs of additional RAM to each machine then we'd be talking something decent.

 

[wizard]

Hi all;

Back again after enjoying a very nice day outside. You know what I'm talking about green grass and sun shine.

As this thread has unfolded some have tried to convince me an others that apples pricing is comparable to Dells, fto prevent a riot we have not suggested a second tear vendor. So I went to Dells web site and looked at their home PC's, their top of the line XPS is $1899. For this you get a 2.8 GHx P4 with an 800MHz frontside bus, 512MB of dual channel memory, an ATI Radeon 9600 with a 128 MB memory, 19" monitor, plus a whole bunch of ports.

In my estimation the closest apple computer is $2699, this isn't a $200 dollar difference nor is it a $500 dollar difference. Like I said before I'm completely willing to spend a little extra for a mac, but by the time you bring it up to Dell standards you will have spent much more than a thousand over the cost of the Dell. The operating system issues aren't even there because you don't have to run a MS OS on the Dell. Frankly; except after major hardware introductions, apples prices are always out of sync with comparable items in the PC world.

The reality of the situation is this; the Apple tax is enough to send me to Jamaica for a week. I have to have a very good reason to spend that cash on an Apple over that vacation. Maybe the 970 systems will have everything packaged together and priced to convince me. Historically though this isn't alway the case with apple.

The problem is Apple introduces competive machines and then stands by as the PC world passes them by. Hopefully by being team with IBM this won't happen anymore, but I do have my doubts. My first conventional PC was a Apple MacPlus so its not like I don't like the hardware, but having to bend over for the honor is a little much.

Thanks
Dave

Originally posted by MacBandit
Try running 10 programs at once and come back to me and let me know how you did. I don't notice a speed drop at all on my dual mac. I know from experience that a Dual Mac can trounce even P4 at 3GHz if given a multitasking situation.



Meaning OS X rocks. Fine. We already knew that. That's why we're here. Doesn't prove jack about the hardware. If you want to objectively compare hardware, you need a controlled test environment, like one app at a time etc.

Wouldn't it be nice to have decent hardware, so the Mac could be fast in both situations, single and multi-app? If you think your Mac is fast now, imagine how nice it will be to be running on hardware that doesn't suck.

 

[cooper13]

Dell

But take the Dell XPS, add a DVD burner, gigabit ethernet, home video authoring software, (no option to add firewire), second monitor support, and the rest to spec it out to the G4 in terms of comparability, and it is $2816. Of course this does have one monitor included, but the point is they are roughly equal!

 

[MattG]

Well this is it!! Just a few more hours. I'll be at work unfortunately but I'll be checking all the rumor sites as well as Apple's site once 1pm strikes. I'll be disappointed if at 15.4" AlBook isn't announced, however I won't be surprised if it isn't.

 

[wizard]

quote:Originally posted by wizard

Name me one Linux GUI that is consistent.

I can't think of any. They're improving and improving and will get there. But they're not there yet.

Consistant - well none of them on the other hand you can pick and choose your Window manager. Yes Linux is improving all the time, on the other hand if you don't need MS applications it is allready a better OS than most of the OS that MS supplies. The thing is that it is a reliable almost crash proof OS alternative with wide acceptance.

The thing that will be neat is when Apple delievers its Xserver implementation. You could then have all the software advantages of the open source world runing right beside your Mac world applications. That will be something.

quote:
I agree with you that obsession with hardware can be a problem. In the case of Apple they have not even thought about it for the last few years. The PowerMac is so in need of a make over that anything less than a state of the art intro of new hardware by apple will be useless. Because like it or not Software does out run cpu performance.



This I agree with. Moto hasn't kept the G4 torch burning at all. But Apple hasn't priced the PowerMac or its peripherals to match. They still *way* overprice for RAM. If they added 256-512 megs of additional RAM to each machine then we'd be talking something decent.

This is why I think Apple has the possibility to save the PowerMac line with the 970. But they have also historically screwed up big time configuring their machines. There is a limit to how much extra value an Apple has over a PC. If Apple crosses the line they will have a hard time moving the 970's after the rush of the lemmings. I don't think I will sleep tonight to heavily, if they hit the right price point I could be a customer again. On the other hand the next PC I buy will be a long term investment, if the 970's can't be justified from that perspective then its PC hardware for my next major upgrade. By the way we are talking a 5 year or longer upgrade cycle a year, so apple would mis me as a customer for much of those years.

Dave

 

[wizard]

Take a look at Dell's specs. For the most part you will be adding to the MAC to bring it up to Dell standards.

Further you have to decide how much of those goodies you will be using on either machine. In the end the MAC comes up short. The differential is thousands not hundreds and certianly not $200.

Say what you will about the software, it takes a reasonable hardware environment to run it. I have this Sundays COMPUSA flier sitting in fornt of me, they have an Apple Ibook for 1299, it only comes with 128MB of ram. That is a complete joke consideirng the PC hardware on the same page and the reality of OS/X. I mean really APPLE sell us a computer that atleast can run your OS in a user positive way!!! Its one thing to sell premium hardware which is what Apple PC's are, but you would think that they would be configured out of the box to run Apples main OS well!!!

I'm sorry if this upsets people but these little things tick me off about apple.

Dave

But take the Dell XPS, add a DVD burner, gigabit ethernet, home video authoring software, (no option to add firewire), second monitor support, and the rest to spec it out to the G4 in terms of comparability, and it is $2816. Of course this does have one monitor included, but the point is they are roughly equal!

 

[bobindashadows]

Originally posted by wizard
The thing that will be neat is when Apple delievers its Xserver implementation. Dave [/B]

By now I've learned not to bother with trolls - and whether you like it or not, you are one. I don't mean to piss you off, I'm just observing that you appear to enjoy stirring up trouble. Not debate, trouble.

Anyway, if there is one thing that gets on my nerves, is when people make dumb mistakes, like calling the company MAC (always full caps), or even computers being MACS. Another thing is calling the "Xserve"s "Xserver"s. Please get it right. Not as bad as calling the computers Apples and the company MAC, but it's kinda annoying when people on these boards don't even know the name of the products. Perhaps you are just used to typing out "server" and not just "serve", but don't say Xserver. You sound like those reporters at the register (didn't they do that once?)

 

[uburoibob]

Re: lol

Originally posted by technocoy
--------------------------------------------------
Take a look at this

If it is true, I LIKE IT!!!

http://digitalstudios.geneva-link.c.../Film-enya.html
--------------------------------------------------

don't take this as an insult, but this is why i'm glad apple DOESN'T listen to all the "designers" out there... the functionality and technology it showcases is nice, but this thing is fugly! I could go into all the things that are wrong with it from a design standpoint but i have to go to work tomorrow! LOL!

I have several wonderful 3d friends, but most of them, without an art director and industrial designer, would be dangerous in the design world.(and i don't mean "dangerous" in a good way.)

Q: How many art directors does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Does it have to be a lightbulb?

LOL

 

[skunk]

WWDC offerings, a last optimistic guess:

1.8, 2.0 and 2.5 GHz 970 PM available now
1.4 and 1.6 GHz 970 iMacs announced
970 Powerbooks: 1.4 GHz 15" available immediately, 12" and 17" to follow.
4 new adjustable displays to match new PMs: 17", 20", 23", 30", all with optional camera and mic.
10.3 demoed.
Q6 tablet announced.
Wireless 2-button scrolling mouse and metallic keyboard

...dreaming on....

 

[wizard]

Ok guys I've taken you up on this supposed $200 gap between apple and PC hardware. Went to the dell web site and looked at a XPS system, they have one advertised for $1899. The closet apple I oculd find is $2699 and you would have to add hardware to it to bring it up to Dell standards.

The only time recently that Apple has had pricing comparable or slightly above PC prices is at the introduction of new hardware. Within three months the advantage is gone as the PC hardware continues to improve. I realize that Motorola is a big player in this problem but none the less Apple is only competitive for a few months out of the last couple of years. By competitve I accept a little bit of a postitve price differential but not a thousand or more.

Like I said before I'm breathlessly waiting for the 970 introduction. If history repeats itself they will only be viable for a short period of time.

quote:Originally posted by MacBandit
The last time I compared a Mac to a PC feature for feature Dell and IBM both were within $200 of the same price as a PowerMac. I'm sorry but overpriced Macs is a myth unless you are building your own PC which can't rightly be compared as you are putting your own labor into it which isn't being added into the cost on top of you don't have system warranty o any support.



Agree 100%.

When I told people I was going to buy a Mac for X dollars, most people gasped. I aked them to price a Sony with an 80 gig HD, 17" widescreen LCD, CD-R/RW drive, DVD-R drive, AND software...not much difference. I think they were within 200 bucks of one another.

Squire

 

[Rower_CPU]

wizard-
Will you humor me and post the exact specs of both machines and the extras you have to add to each to make them equivalent, plus their total and individual parts prices.

That would really help everyone get on the same page here.

 

[pedro taquelim]

Originally posted by Brent Turbo
BMWs are overpriced crap. You're an ass if you buy one, because you can get a Yugo for less than 1/10th the cost!

Here's a funny notion: people should be allowed to buy what they want, for whatever reasons they want to buy it. Why is does this strange need to tell others what to buy only occur in the computer world? Who cares?? They're just computers and they're infinitely less important than friends, family, and a whole lot of other things. They're tools that will be thrown in the trash in a few years.

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP!!!!!

this was the best post of the night!!!

thank you very much, I am going to bed... computers are crap...why the hell are we wasting our time talking about this crap!

a pc a mac...who cares! be happy!

bye bye!

 

[wizard]

You really have no idea at all that Apple is in effect running a variant of UNIX do you. Since you don't understand that you probally won't know what a X-server is or what X is itself.

If you had the slightest idea of what a computer can be used for outside the desktop you would understand why I mentioned the possibliity that Apple might deliever their X-server implementation. If it comes at the conference or with the next major OS (panther) roll out it would be a good thing for Apple in my estimation. How commenting on this potentialy positive developemnt is trolling I don't know, I do know irresponsible behaviour when I see though.

quote:Originally posted by wizard
The thing that will be neat is when Apple delievers its Xserver implementation. Dave [/B]



By now I've learned not to bother with trolls - and whether you like it or not, you are one. I don't mean to piss you off, I'm just observing that you appear to enjoy stirring up trouble. Not debate, trouble.

Anyway, if there is one thing that gets on my nerves, is when people make dumb mistakes, like calling the company MAC (always full caps), or even computers being MACS. Another thing is calling the "Xserve"s "Xserver"s. Please get it right. Not as bad as calling the computers Apples and the company MAC, but it's kinda annoying when people on these boards don't even know the name of the products. Perhaps you are just used to typing out "server" and not just "serve", but don't say Xserver. You sound like those reporters at the register (didn't they do that once?)

__________________
i need a haircut

[mod. edit - No personal attacks. And learn how to quote properly, please.]

 

[shadowfax]

wizard--you are a newbie and are really getting a little fiery for my tastes. stop flaming and make arguments without insulting people's intelligence. who are you even talking to? if it's rower, i can promise you he is very aware of what X11 is.

[edit] i am sorry, i just matched up the quote and realized who you were quoting. he doesn't know what he is talking about either, i agree, but you really should try being nicer about telling him that. also, learn to use the quote button on the lower right of each post. it makes things understandable for the rest of us by formatting it right. thanks [/edit]

 

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by wizard
The thing is that it is a reliable almost crash proof OS alternative with wide acceptance.

Oh, come now. It's not the bad old days of 1997. Every operating system these days is virtually crash-proof. Unless you're dealing with either bad hardware or bad hardware drivers, you don't have to worry about operating system crashes any more. This has been true for some years now.

Apple's short-lived marketing effort that was based on the idea that PC's crash while Mac's done fell flat. Advocating Linux on the grounds that it doesn't crash falls flat, too.

Linux fails miserably in the user experience arena. The user interface--any one of the upteen hundreds out there--is hideously ugly. No two Linux systems work in the same way, either, unless they're literally identical copies of one another. And as for Linux applications? Forget it. Find me a Linux application that's even vaguely reminiscent of iPhoto or iTunes and I'll eat my hat.

This is why I think Apple has the possibility to save the PowerMac line with the 970.

I thought we'd cleared this up already. The Power Mac line does not need saving.

Look, your opinions about the relative merits of a Mac versus a whatever else are fine and good. But they are not universal truths. They are not even, from what I can tell, particularly widely held by those who actually know what they are talking about. You're certainly entitled to think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that you are right in any meaningful sense of the word.

Edit: I think I've come to agree with Bob, particularly after your comment about having to bring a Mac up to Dell's standards. You're just trolling for an argument here. I feel silly for having taken your bait.

 

[wizard]

Hi

Just go to Dells web site, look under home/home office computers they have an XPS system featured for $1899 with a lot of features. Far lesser systems are available for $699. The XPS does offer a full complement of ports.

The reality is that we probally shouldn't be comapring against Apples old stuff considering the fact that HOPEFULLY everything will be new tommorrow. The concenr I have is that Apple keep any lead the new machines may offer, instead of following the usual pattern of holding the same price for ages while the rest of the world passes them by.

Thanks
Dave

wizard-
Will you humor me and post the exact specs of both machines and the extras you have to add to each to make them equivalent, plus their total and individual parts prices.

That would really help everyone get on the same page here.

__________________
Join MacRumors.com - Team Folding, and be a part of the #1 Mac Folding team!

 

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by wizard
Hi

Just go to Dells web site, look under home/home office computers they have an XPS system featured for $1899 with a lot of features. Far lesser systems are available for $699. The XPS does offer a full complement of ports.

The reality is that we probally shouldn't be comapring against Apples old stuff considering the fact that HOPEFULLY everything will be new tommorrow. The concenr I have is that Apple keep any lead the new machines may offer, instead of following the usual pattern of holding the same price for ages while the rest of the world passes them by.

Thanks
Dave

IOW, you can't or don't want to? It really would go a long way towards proving your point...too bad.

PS. The quote button is your friend. Use it.

 

[Sun Baked]

[remove]

When a single member is having a flame war with himself, it's time for medication.

---

Ooops, sorry looks like the mods have got there already.

 

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
wizard-
Will you humor me and post the exact specs of both machines and the extras you have to add to each to make them equivalent, plus their total and individual parts prices.

That would really help everyone get on the same page here.

to get this without doing any work, wizard, try this:

 

[MacKid]

Hey. . .

Originally posted by wizard
Ok guys I've taken you up on this supposed $200 gap between apple and PC hardware. Went to the dell web site and looked at a XPS system, they have one advertised for $1899. The closet apple I oculd find is $2699 and you would have to add hardware to it to bring it up to Dell standards.

The only time recently that Apple has had pricing comparable or slightly above PC prices is at the introduction of new hardware. Within three months the advantage is gone as the PC hardware continues to improve. I realize that Motorola is a big player in this problem but none the less Apple is only competitive for a few months out of the last couple of years. By competitve I accept a little bit of a postitve price differential but not a thousand or more.

Like I said before I'm breathlessly waiting for the 970 introduction. If history repeats itself they will only be viable for a short period of time.

Didn't you say this already? Just go away and stop trying to raise your post count.

I'm not mad, I know that what you're saying is the truth, but you're just coming across all these different posts and just trying to be differential.




Whoa. Did I just say all that?

 

[wizard]

Hi Jeff;

I disagree with you with respect to the PowerMac line needing saving. If you look at things from the perspective of an outsider I think the conclusion is that there is a need for a turn around. A business can not loose market share and year on year sales and expect ot stay in the market. This is what one sees of the PowerMac line.

The thought that Apple will be introducing the 970's is why I believe they could be well on their way to reviving the product. Frankly; if they don't have a successfull marketing program for the new line of PowerMacs they are going to become insignificant to Apples bottom line.

Really guys I'm not trolling, haven't been in a boat in ages, just trying to point out a few realities. One of which is that no matter how you measure it the PowerMac line is not competitve anymore, that is why the 970 is so important. Apple seems to understand this, why everyone here doesn't escapes me.

Maybe I'm a little excited here, I want Apple to be successfull, but I also want to be able to afford a system from them. Hey its only a few hours now!

thanks
Dave

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Oh, come now. It's not the bad old days of 1997. Every operating system these days is virtually crash-proof. Unless you're dealing with either bad hardware or bad hardware drivers, you don't have to worry about operating system crashes any more. This has been true for some years now.

Apple's short-lived marketing effort that was based on the idea that PC's crash while Mac's done fell flat. Advocating Linux on the grounds that it doesn't crash falls flat, too.

Linux fails miserably in the user experience arena. The user interface--any one of the upteen hundreds out there--is hideously ugly. No two Linux systems work in the same way, either, unless they're literally identical copies of one another. And as for Linux applications? Forget it. Find me a Linux application that's even vaguely reminiscent of iPhoto or iTunes and I'll eat my hat.

This is why I think Apple has the possibility to save the PowerMac line with the 970.[/quote]I thought we'd cleared this up already. The Power Mac line does not need saving.

Look, your opinions about the relative merits of a Mac versus a whatever else are fine and good. But they are not universal truths. They are not even, from what I can tell, particularly widely held by those who actually know what they are talking about. You're certainly entitled to think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that you are right in any meaningful sense of the word.

Edit: I think I've come to agree with Bob, particularly after your comment about having to bring a Mac up to Dell's standards. You're just trolling for an argument here. I feel silly for having taken your bait. [/QUOTE]

 

[MacKid]

Originally posted by wizard
Hi Jeff;

I disagree with you with respect to the PowerMac line needing saving. If you look at things from the perspective of an outsider I think the conclusion is that there is a need for a turn around. A business can not loose market share and year on year sales and expect ot stay in the market. This is what one sees of the PowerMac line.

The thought that Apple will be introducing the 970's is why I believe they could be well on their way to reviving the product. Frankly; if they don't have a successfull marketing program for the new line of PowerMacs they are going to become insignificant to Apples bottom line.

Really guys I'm not trolling, haven't been in a boat in ages, just trying to point out a few realities. One of which is that no matter how you measure it the PowerMac line is not competitve anymore, that is why the 970 is so important. Apple seems to understand this, why everyone here doesn't escapes me.

Maybe I'm a little excited here, I want Apple to be successfull, but I also want to be able to afford a system from them. Hey its only a few hours now!

thanks
Dave


This is why I think Apple has the possibility to save the PowerMac line with the 970.

I thought we'd cleared this up already. The Power Mac line does not need saving.

Look, your opinions about the relative merits of a Mac versus a whatever else are fine and good. But they are not universal truths. They are not even, from what I can tell, particularly widely held by those who actually know what they are talking about. You're certainly entitled to think whatever you want, but that doesn't mean that you are right in any meaningful sense of the word.

Edit: I think I've come to agree with Bob, particularly after your comment about having to bring a Mac up to Dell's standards. You're just trolling for an argument here. I feel silly for having taken your bait. [/B][/QUOTE] [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, there really are a lot of loyal developers/editors/designers that simply do things on the mac, just like there are people who "need Windows". And it's not as if there are about 1 out of every 100,000 people. So, I don't think if they save the 970's until next January, that the PowerMac line is going to stop bringing in money. . . . . . . . .and there is a LITTLE bit of money coming from that LITTLE thing called the iTunes Music Store, so I seriously don't think that if we get new iBook designs instead of 970's that Apple will go bankrupt even by the time you start to lighten up.

Two more things: Pleaes spell thinsg like the XSeerve rigth. Se ehow anoying it si?

And also, you must have seen the countless posts telling you to USE THE QUOTE BUTTON. That last post was made just a while ago, and it's just that little button below the message you're quoting. Try it.

Sorry if I come of as being a bit ignorant, or cruel, or "unable to face the truth (in your view)", or whatever, but I honestly don't care.



Wow, that's got to be the meanest I've ever been on these boards!

 

[shadowfax]

i propose we just drop this, stop calling him a troll, leave the disagreement as is, and all cross our fingers for tomorrow. in the meantime, wizard, you can keep trying to figure out those pesky

tags

[edit] mackid: making fun of him like that doesn't help me. i want clarity, not more people adding to the confusion. can you please make some sense of that post and clean it up (highly questionable content there man), or just report it and request it be removed? [/edit]