You Can/Can't Still Use PowerPC Macs in 2020!

[defjam]

OK. That's the place I was trying to get him to though. In the beginning he wouldn't even consider addons as part of what an average user would know or use. His opinion hasn't changed, but now he's more informed.

We can now argue (discuss) while being on the same page.

Whoa there! Let's back up a minute here. It's not that I wouldn't consider addons. It's that I mentioned how poor my browsing experience was on this PowerMac and I received a number of different responses with differing suggestions as to how to address it. My rejecting addons wasn't because I dislike addons but rather it was suggested after other suggestions. As I was considering this from the PoV of an average user suggestion after suggestion after suggestion is just going to confuse them. I installed the addon because I understand what they are and the benefits. The average user? They're likely to be confused. Especially when one cannot use the standard method to install them (i.e. I had to ask where to get them).

Contrast this to the Mini where I fired up Safari (or the latest version of FF) and browsed the web. No muss, no fuss.

 

[eyoungren]

Whoa there! Let's back up a minute here. It's not that I wouldn't consider addons. It's that I mentioned how poor my browsing experience was on this PowerMac and I received a number of different responses with differing suggestions as to how to address it. My rejecting addons wasn't because I dislike addons but rather it was suggested after other suggestions. As I was considering this from the PoV of an average user suggestion after suggestion after suggestion is just going to confuse them. I installed the addon because I understand what they are and the benefits. The average user? They're likely to be confused. Especially when one cannot use the standard method to install them (i.e. I had to ask where to get them).

Contrast this to the Mini where I fired up Safari (or the latest version of FF) and browsed the web. No muss, no fuss.

Addons were suggested as a solution by me on page 3, which I can only infer you became aware of on page 4 when you quoted Raging Dufus's post (which quoted my suggestion).

That's all I can be sure of.

Timelines aside, we are right back to 'reasonable'. I disagree that the average person would be confused. However, I understand that there is a class of people out there who are far less capable and interested in engaging in the process than what I define as the average user. THAT person would be confused and it'd be unreasonable to expect if of them because they are generally unused to and not interested in thinking.

 

[defjam]

Timelines aside, we are right back to 'reasonable'. I disagree that the average person would be confused. However, I understand that there is a class of people out there who are far less capable and interested in engaging in the process than what I define as the average user. THAT person would be confused and it'd be unreasonable to expect if of them because they are generally unused to and not interested in thinking.

As someone who regularly supports "average" users I can tell you what has been suggested here is beyond their interest in doing. You can be critical of their interest but the average user considers a computer to be nothing more than a tool that should just work (and I, generally, agree with that philosophy) without too much effort.

Despite my success with uMatrix is has a few disadvantages:

1. Too much effort to get it installed.
2. Incomplete, while it improves performance improvements come at a cost of incompatibility.
3. It's still not as fast as a low cost Intel system.

I'm willing to accept the limitations however I still would recommend a low cost Intel system over a PPC Mac, for the average user.

 

[eyoungren]

As someone who regularly supports "average" users I can tell you what has been suggested here is beyond their interest in doing. You can be critical of their interest but the average user considers a computer to be nothing more than a tool that should just work (and I, generally, agree with that philosophy) without too much effort.

Despite my success with uMatrix is has a few disadvantages:

1. Too much effort to get it installed.
2. Incomplete, while it improves performance improvements come at a cost of incompatibility.
3. It's still not as fast as a low cost Intel system.

I'm willing to accept the limitations however I still would recommend a low cost Intel system over a PPC Mac, for the average user.

I can't argue against your experience. I've worn the IT/support hat before but only because I was the 'computer guy' who actually knew something. With one exception I've never worked for a company with it's own IT department so it usually fell to me. But that's never been my primary role and I've been accused of being impatient and unforgiving when teaching others computers.

You and I though just have a fundamental disagreement on 'reasonable' and 'average user'. That's a matter of our perspective, experience (or in my case lack of it) and opinion. At this point neither of us I believe will be moved one way or the other.

I will say however that it's probably a good thing I'm not in charge of IT or support. It requires a level of patience and understanding I do not possess.

 

[Amethyst1]

Addons were suggested as a solution by me on page 3, which I can only infer you became aware of on page 4 when you quoted Raging Dufus's post (which quoted my suggestion).

Now I'm confused - guess I'm just an average person... 😅
[automerge]1584798468[/automerge]

It's strange to see the prevalence of those attitudes in a group that's supposedly geared towards getting the best out of low end Macs

The definition of "low end" is not constant. Theirs is early Intel - with "early" again being subject to considerable interpretation.

 

[1042686]

I can't argue against your experience. I've worn the IT/support hat before but only because I was the 'computer guy' who actually knew something. With one exception I've never worked for a company with it's own IT department so it usually fell to me. But that's never been my primary role and I've been accused of being impatient and unforgiving when teaching others computers.

You and I though just have a fundamental disagreement on 'reasonable' and 'average user'. That's a matter of our perspective, experience (or in my case lack of it) and opinion. At this point neither of us I believe will be moved one way or the other.

I will say however that it's probably a good thing I'm not in charge of IT or support. It requires a level of patience and understanding I do not possess.

I was going to say that Rob our head of IT at work is the most patient and calm person ever. Certainly the best IT professional I have worked with in recent memory. He's like: server connection down? no problem. remote email not working? Reboot, you should be back. VNC slow? Here ya go. Our planet is out of orbit hurdling uncontrollably into outer space towards a red giant of impending doom? No Prob, fixed.

 

[iluvmacs99]

I worked in the non-profit community based technology organization until recently before being laid off due to the closure in response to Covid-19. In the time I worked in the community, our big community of "average users" from skid-row and street people, prostitutes, drug addicts all the way to people who drive nice cars and hold white collar jobs were being constantly "OFFENDED" (by their words to me) by those internet influencers and computer geeks who seemed to think that average users are dumb, stupid and ill-informed. In fact, when I first started my job in computer sales before being recently being promoted to inner process manager, many of them were talking me down saying that, I was arrogant, ill-informed etc because I treated them like a child; someone who didn't know a thing about this or that and that I was handholding their choices. The PowerMac issue were the forefront in a way that most of these so called average users and I say average because they are working and living on the streets and if you look at them, you may be inclined to judge them as stupid and ill-formed. They "WERE THE ONES" who taught me a lot about what the PowerMac could do and thankfully, I could relate to them because I was once dead broke. That relationship taught me to be humble and respectful of others' opinions and experiences. Which was why I was voted into management position because of how I could relate and work with venerable people, though it was short-lived due to the current Covid 19 issue. However, I am confident that I will be re-employed once this Pandemic ends, but I now will bring my humble experience of what I learned from that community organization and always try to listen FIRST before letting my "EGO" formed an opinion that maybe be flawed by the inexperience of the subject at hand.

Listening to the original OP's video showed his inexperience in the subject matter and this was what caused the contentious issue in the first place.

It's like someone who never ran a full marathon and then starts telling others who had ran a marathon how to run a marathon. That is the kind of feeling; a feeling that the person sounded like hypocrite trying to be an expert but lacking the real life experience backing the expertise!

 

[Dronecatcher]

Listening to the original OP's video showed his inexperience in the subject matter and this was what caused the contentious issue in the first place.

Just to reiterate, I didn't post the video in the first place to attack the Youtuber - it was just for entertainment value but having watched 3 other of his videos, they all contained fundamental errors of research - which I pointed out to him on his channel.
Again, as I've said before in this thread, being wrong/making a mistake isn't a hanging offense but for the sake of accuracy, the correct information should be illustrated.
Maybe the Youtuber doesn't feel the need to fully research his material because it might conflict with the direction of his videos?

those internet influencers and computer geeks who seemed to think that average users are dumb, stupid and ill-informed

I'm in agreement there but there definitely are very intelligent individuals out there also, who expect a computer to just work and require no kind of user maintenance - in the same way that if they have a power drill, it should work and not require any adjusting.

 

[iluvmacs99]

Maybe the Youtuber doesn't feel the need to fully research his material because it might conflict with the direction of his videos?

I think that Youtube influencers have followers who, they know, could be monetized and manipulated to embrace their agendas. And in so doing, these influencers helped sales of some particular computer market and helped monetized the value of those computers. phones, tablets which would otherwise be worth nothing more than their "true" intrinsic value. The influencers are basically providing an example to their followers of their unique experiences, which sometimes more so helped raised these products far more than their true intrinsic value. The followers will then strive to obtain the same experience, but also wanted more because this is our human nature. We want more. But by wanting more, the influencers will eventually realize their followers will eventually uncover their agendas and thus negate their business model or hobby model. They know full well the truth, but why let someone expose something that is good going by deflecting the truth?

What this Covid-19 disease helped expose is the lack of transparency that this economy and businesses had thus far managed to circumvent during good times. The full research of many companies and influencers are always right there in front of you, but people chose to ignore those in good times. Only in bad times when the tide recedes and you see many naked people who claimed have their clothes on but had nothing on. You simply shown to us that the Youtuber had nothing on but allowing us to see underneath the water.

 

[2984839]

I worked in the non-profit community based technology organization until recently before being laid off due to the closure in response to Covid-19. In the time I worked in the community, our big community of "average users" from skid-row and street people, prostitutes, drug addicts all the way to people who drive nice cars and hold white collar jobs were being constantly "OFFENDED" (by their words to me) by those internet influencers and computer geeks who seemed to think that average users are dumb, stupid and ill-informed. In fact, when I first started my job in computer sales before being recently being promoted to inner process manager, many of them were talking me down saying that, I was arrogant, ill-informed etc because I treated them like a child; someone who didn't know a thing about this or that and that I was handholding their choices. The PowerMac issue were the forefront in a way that most of these so called average users and I say average because they are working and living on the streets and if you look at them, you may be inclined to judge them as stupid and ill-formed. They "WERE THE ONES" who taught me a lot about what the PowerMac could do and thankfully, I could relate to them because I was once dead broke. That relationship taught me to be humble and respectful of others' opinions and experiences. Which was why I was voted into management position because of how I could relate and work with venerable people, though it was short-lived due to the current Covid 19 issue. However, I am confident that I will be re-employed once this Pandemic ends, but I now will bring my humble experience of what I learned from that community organization and always try to listen FIRST before letting my "EGO" formed an opinion that maybe be flawed by the inexperience of the subject at hand.

Listening to the original OP's video showed his inexperience in the subject matter and this was what caused the contentious issue in the first place.

It's like someone who never ran a full marathon and then starts telling others who had ran a marathon how to run a marathon. That is the kind of feeling; a feeling that the person sounded like hypocrite trying to be an expert but lacking the real life experience backing the expertise!

100%
I am a de facto IT guy at one job and the actual IT department at my other job and can confirm that extreme patience and humility is required for that role.

 

[1042686]

Humility is a fantastic way to describe the most competent IT professionals I've known.

That being said it does not preclude them from holding opinions similar to video one op - they might hold them, they might not. Regardless of their perosnal opinions, they understand the importance of social humility & patience in the realm of customer service and how they are directly linked to getting the job done. Being patient and the "humble listener" is in fact a great method to get the job done as quickly as possible, the first time. Keeping it as simple as possible and straight forward is another. These are all best practices regardless of ones chosen profession.

 

[salamanderjuice]

I'd argue that there are plenty of things that optical drives are still used for. I just installed a new one one in my Power Mac yesterday. I use a 10 year old machine as my daily and it might not be the fastest, but it works for my purposes. Ideally those G5 systems wouldn't be scrapped or converted and be saved instead.

Yeah, they have uses but with most software being downloaded, music and movies streamed not everyone needs one anymore. Apple hasn't sold a computer with one for over half a decade, most laptops don't include one anymore and desktops too. A PowerMac G5 case would still allow one internal drive if needed. I can't imagine too many people still need dual optical drives these days.

If you can still use a 10 year old computer that's great, but some people have more demanding computing needs for whatever reason.

 

[eyoungren]

…but there definitely are very intelligent individuals out there also, who expect a computer to just work and require no kind of user maintenance - in the same way that if they have a power drill, it should work and not require any adjusting.

Generally, I agree with you here. But a lot of the time this is where that person's intelligence gets in the way. The Dunning-Krueger effect states that the less you know about a subject the more you believe you know about it and that conversely the more you know about a subject, the less you believe you know about it.

I bring that up because of your example of a drill. Simple item right? But what if it's a high-end multifunctional drill that requires consulting the manual in order to properly use it? The kind of person you speak of is not interested in manuals - they already 'know' everything. They already 'know' how to work a drill.

The is one of the problems BMW had when they first introduced iDrive. There was a thick manual on how to use it included in the car, but few of the rich buyers bothered to consult it. These people aren't dumb, but they are disinterested in the time it takes to learn new things that they do not believe they should have to learn.

 

[defjam]

I think that Youtube influencers have followers who, they know, could be monetized and manipulated to embrace their agendas. And in so doing, these influencers helped sales of some particular computer market and helped monetized the value of those computers. phones, tablets which would otherwise be worth nothing more than their "true" intrinsic value. The influencers are basically providing an example to their followers of their unique experiences, which sometimes more so helped raised these products far more than their true intrinsic value. The followers will then strive to obtain the same experience, but also wanted more because this is our human nature. We want more. But by wanting more, the influencers will eventually realize their followers will eventually uncover their agendas and thus negate their business model or hobby model. They know full well the truth, but why let someone expose something that is good going by deflecting the truth?

I think you're putting too much thought into this. There's no anti-PPC conspiracy and the first YouTuber in the OP was spot on with everything he said. Today PPC is primarily an enthusiast platform. There are always edge cases but the advice and reasons given in his video were completely appropriate. Keeping in mind the video is unlikely targeted towards users of this forum what of what he said do you have issue with? Again, let me repeat to emphasize: Keeping in mind the video is unlikely targeted towards users of this forum.

What this Covid-19 disease helped expose is the lack of transparency that this economy and businesses had thus far managed to circumvent during good times. The full research of many companies and influencers are always right there in front of you, but people chose to ignore those in good times. Only in bad times when the tide recedes and you see many naked people who claimed have their clothes on but had nothing on. You simply shown to us that the Youtuber had nothing on but allowing us to see underneath the water.

People are just idiots when it comes to COVID-19. Earlier today I went to Micro Center and there's a line at the door. I inquired what the line was for (they had already been open an hour) and was told they were practicing "distancing". IOW they were only allowing a certain number of people in the store at a time to minimize close contact between customers. How idiotic!

 

[eyoungren]

I was going to say that Rob our head of IT at work is the most patient and calm person ever. Certainly the best IT professional I have worked with in recent memory. He's like: server connection down? no problem. remote email not working? Reboot, you should be back. VNC slow? Here ya go. Our planet is out of orbit hurdling uncontrollably into outer space towards a red giant of impending doom? No Prob, fixed.

I worked in the non-profit community based technology organization until recently before being laid off due to the closure in response to Covid-19. In the time I worked in the community, our big community of "average users" from skid-row and street people, prostitutes, drug addicts all the way to people who drive nice cars and hold white collar jobs were being constantly "OFFENDED" (by their words to me) by those internet influencers and computer geeks who seemed to think that average users are dumb, stupid and ill-informed. In fact, when I first started my job in computer sales before being recently being promoted to inner process manager, many of them were talking me down saying that, I was arrogant, ill-informed etc because I treated them like a child; someone who didn't know a thing about this or that and that I was handholding their choices. The PowerMac issue were the forefront in a way that most of these so called average users and I say average because they are working and living on the streets and if you look at them, you may be inclined to judge them as stupid and ill-formed. They "WERE THE ONES" who taught me a lot about what the PowerMac could do and thankfully, I could relate to them because I was once dead broke. That relationship taught me to be humble and respectful of others' opinions and experiences. Which was why I was voted into management position because of how I could relate and work with venerable people, though it was short-lived due to the current Covid 19 issue. However, I am confident that I will be re-employed once this Pandemic ends, but I now will bring my humble experience of what I learned from that community organization and always try to listen FIRST before letting my "EGO" formed an opinion that maybe be flawed by the inexperience of the subject at hand.

Listening to the original OP's video showed his inexperience in the subject matter and this was what caused the contentious issue in the first place.

It's like someone who never ran a full marathon and then starts telling others who had ran a marathon how to run a marathon. That is the kind of feeling; a feeling that the person sounded like hypocrite trying to be an expert but lacking the real life experience backing the expertise!

100%
I am a de facto IT guy at one job and the actual IT department at my other job and can confirm that extreme patience and humility is required for that role.

Humility is a fantastic way to describe the most competent IT professionals I've known.

That being said it does not preclude them from holding opinions similar to video one op - they might hold them, they might not. Regardless of their perosnal opinions, they understand the importance of social humility & patience in the realm of customer service and how they are directly linked to getting the job done. Being patient and the "humble listener" is in fact a great method to get the job done as quickly as possible, the first time. Keeping it as simple as possible and straight forward is another. These are all best practices regardless of ones chosen profession.

Humility is my single biggest problem when trying to teach new computer skills. I fail a lot at it. As I said earlier, it's a good thing I never ended up in IT.

 

[defjam]

The is one of the problems BMW had when they first introduced iDrive. There was a thick manual on how to use it included in the car, but few of the rich buyers bothered to consult it. These people aren't dumb, but they are disinterested in the time it takes to learn new things that they do not believe they should have to learn.

Isn't this the whole philosophy behind the Macintosh?

 

[RogerWilco6502]

Yeah, they have uses but with most software being downloaded, music and movies streamed not everyone needs one anymore. Apple hasn't sold a computer with one for over half a decade, most laptops don't include one anymore and desktops too. A PowerMac G5 case would still allow one internal drive if needed. I can't imagine too many people still need dual optical drives these days.

If you can still use a 10 year old computer that's great, but some people have more demanding computing needs for whatever reason.

Yeah, I know. It's probably not absolutely necessary, and I know what you mean. The fact remains that if the computer works still, or can work without major repairs, it is my opinion that it should be preserved and kept alive.

And yeah, I'm probably in the minority when it comes to using older computers.

 

[eyoungren]

Isn't this the whole philosophy behind the Macintosh?

Yes.

And if you're buying a new, modern Mac you can expect that. Although I would argue now that Apple still has manuals and still has to explain things.

I suppose it's the attitude I object to most. I 'know' everything about it, I don't need to read the stinking manual. And then they get in trouble. And then they come and ask YOU to help them. Something that wouldn't have happened if they'd bothered to read in the first place, but oh no - that's what they have you for. To clean up the mess they make and fix their problems so they don't have to do it or think for themselves.

Over the top with the last bit, sure. But that's been MY experience. It gauls me that smart people or 'average' people will spend no effort to learn something but come seeking you out when they have problems (which they wouldn't have if they had spent that effort).

 

[defjam]

Yes.

And if you're buying a new, modern Mac you can expect that. Although I would argue now that Apple still has manuals and still has to explain things.

I suppose it's the attitude I object to most. I 'know' everything about it, I don't need to read the stinking manual. And then they get in trouble. And then they come and ask YOU to help them. Something that wouldn't have happened if they'd bothered to read in the first place, but oh no - that's what they have you for. To clean up the mess they make and fix their problems so they don't have to do it or think for themselves.

Over the top with the last bit, sure. But that's been MY experience. It gauls me that smart people or 'average' people will spend no effort to learn something but come seeking you out when they have problems (which they wouldn't have if they had spent that effort).

It is amazing how stupid I've become wrt computers over the past few years

 

[1042686]

Yes.

And if you're buying a new, modern Mac you can expect that. Although I would argue now that Apple still has manuals and still has to explain things.

I suppose it's the attitude I object to most. I 'know' everything about it, I don't need to read the stinking manual. And then they get in trouble. And then they come and ask YOU to help them. Something that wouldn't have happened if they'd bothered to read in the first place, but oh no - that's what they have you for. To clean up the mess they make and fix their problems so they don't have to do it or think for themselves.

Over the top with the last bit, sure. But that's been MY experience. It gauls me that smart people or 'average' people will spend no effort to learn something but come seeking you out when they have problems (which they wouldn't have if they had spent that effort).

Oh my. Does this mean that we have human hubris and ego to thank for the bulk of our service industry in its numerous forms?

*I can cook. uh oh I burnt dinner. Take out it is!
*I can fix this stupid puter. Uh oh. Geek squad here I come! (notice I snubbed the genius bar here)
*I can replace broken bits on my car. Uh oh. Hello Mr. Mechanic.
*I can keep my house clean. Dirty house. House cleaners for the win.

And all this time I thought it was just because we were stupid, lazy fatties when in fact it is because we are stupidity fueled egoist caffeine junkies breaking our schnitzel.

 

[TheShortTimer]

Apple hasn't sold a computer with one for over half a decade, most laptops don't include one anymore and desktops too.

Apple discontinued providing internal optical drives with their computers in order to push their customers into using commercial avenues that they control and profit from directly such as iTunes. That's the real reason why they failed to embrace Blu-ray because they want you to purchase your HD content from them and want to lock you into doing so. Optical technology is not obsolete, it is rather, a threat to the imposition of a DRM ridden model where you no longer own a physical copy of your software and you transition to becoming a perpetual renter with all of the associated pitfalls.

Most computers no longer include an optical drive because Apple has yet again become a trendsetter for the worst - the industry follows their lead by removing the drives and then the apologists bleat on cue "Well all the others are doing the same thing because no-one uses it any more" etc. Well yes, no-one can use it if you've removed the device as an internal option and instead offer it as an external peripheral or you've dissuaded consumers from requesting either of those choices by convincing them to dismiss it as old hat.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Optical technology is not obsolete, it is rather, a threat to the imposition of a DRM ridden model where you no longer own a physical copy of your software

I was an early adopter and had £100s of DRM coded purchases in iTunes - all was good until I sold my Intel Mac Mini and moved my library to Power PC and older iTunes/OS. I had no access for nearly a week but once I did I recorded all my DRM files to MP3 in realtime (there was no other way) - I wouldn't be held to ransome by Apple again.

 

[Amethyst1]

I recorded all my DRM files to MP3 in realtime (there was no other way) - I wouldn't be held to ransome by Apple again.

I did the same, but using MiniDisc as the target medium. Still using them today, no matter how supposedly obsolete.

 

[TheShortTimer]

I was an early adopter and had £100s of DRM coded purchases in iTunes - all was good until I sold my Intel Mac Mini and moved my library to Power PC and older iTunes/OS. I had no access for nearly a week but once I did I recorded all my DRM files to MP3 in realtime (there was no other way) - I wouldn't be held to ransome by Apple again.

This is why I never dabbled with iTunes as a means of obtaining content. Plus that and the comparisons of the markedly inferior picture quality of their HD offerings vs the same title on Blu-ray.

I did the same, but using MiniDisc as the target medium. Still using them today, no matter how supposedly obsolete.

MiniDisc, especially with the professional models was a big hit within the broadcast radio field. I saw them being used by organisations ranging in size from international to local community. When I had a show on the latter, my trail was recorded using one. If you're interested, I've got some blank and unused MiniDiscs that are still in their wrapping and will probably never be used by me because I'm a DAT stalwart. Cover the postage and If you want them, they're yours.

 

[eyoungren]

It is amazing how stupid I've become wrt computers over the past few years

Oh my. Does this mean that we have human hubris and ego to thank for the bulk of our service industry in its numerous forms?

*I can cook. uh oh I burnt dinner. Take out it is!
*I can fix this stupid puter. Uh oh. Geek squad here I come! (notice I snubbed the genius bar here)
*I can replace broken bits on my car. Uh oh. Hello Mr. Mechanic.
*I can keep my house clean. Dirty house. House cleaners for the win.

And all this time I thought it was just because we were stupid, lazy fatties when in fact it is because we are stupidity fueled egoist caffeine junkies breaking our schnitzel.

I'm not saying that the 'average' person out there is this way. Or rather that the majority of people out there are this way. It's just my luck that my life has put me into constant contact with that minority of people who want to use you to solve their problems without making any effort by themselves.

This is one of the reasons I come here to this forum - because it's a group of people who actually choose to educate themselves and make the effort to solve problems.