Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Status
Not open for further replies.
:D

I'm not saying that the 'average' person out there is this way. Or rather that the majority of people out there are this way. It's just my luck that my life has put me into constant contact with that minority of people who want to use you to solve their problems without making any effort by themselves.

You're not alone! This has happened to me and I'm sure to other members as well. If you display a skill set in this field (and others for that matter) people identify you as someone who can be relied or called upon for assistance accordingly. At one stage, I became widely nicknamed among a group of those people (who were mutually acquainted) as the "hero."

It drove me mad and I pondered as to what they'd do if something happened to me and I was no longer on hand to be the "hero", most likely search for a new saviour. I believe in helping others because selfishness is not a good trait but I draw the line when people refuse to follow my advice when I attempt to help them learn how to help themselves and just want me to provide the solution on-demand ad-infinitum.
 
I'm not saying that the 'average' person out there is this way. Or rather that the majority of people out there are this way. It's just my luck that my life has put me into constant contact with that minority of people who want to use you to solve their problems without making any effort by themselves.
You're experience mimics mine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: eyoungren
Another update. A friend of mine is looking to purchase a new (well, used but new to her) vehicle. As a previous Subaru owner I attempted to post to one of my car forums I used to visit. I attempted to do so from my PowerMac G5 (which I'm currently typing this on right now).

Unfortunately due to the blocking of JavaScript I am unable to do so. I am able to write my post but when I click on the "Submit New Thread" button I receive an error stating the message is too short. For some reason the forum is not accepting the content of my post and rejecting it because it is blank.

I'm sure I could resolve this issue with a little bit of tweaking but this is another example of the challenges anyone using a PPC system will face. While I like using my PowerMac G5 doing so is not without its challenges.
 
Another update. A friend of mine is looking to purchase a new (well, used but new to her) vehicle. As a previous Subaru owner I attempted to post to one of my car forums I used to visit. I attempted to do so from my PowerMac G5 (which I'm currently typing this on right now).

Unfortunately due to the blocking of JavaScript I am unable to do so. I am able to write my post but when I click on the "Submit New Thread" button I receive an error stating the message is too short. For some reason the forum is not accepting the content of my post and rejecting it because it is blank.

I'm sure I could resolve this issue with a little bit of tweaking but this is another example of the challenges anyone using a PPC system will face. While I like using my PowerMac G5 doing so is not without its challenges.
uMatrix is probably blocking a specific script or website access that the site depends on for posting. You can identify that by looking at the access list. Generally it will be something similar to the site you're on and grouped close to the first party sites. It will have a number in red. Clicking on the red to change it to green approves that access for that specific item (image, css, script, cookie, etc). Once you approve it be sure to click on the lock icon so the addon remembers and then reload the page.

This is that granular control I refer to (per site).
 
uMatrix is probably blocking a specific script or website access that the site depends on for posting. You can identify that by looking at the access list. Generally it will be something similar to the site you're on and grouped close to the first party sites. It will have a number in red. Clicking on the red to change it to green approves that access for that specific item (image, css, script, cookie, etc). Once you approve it be sure to click on the lock icon so the addon remembers and then reload the page.

This is that granular control I refer to (per site).
Of this I have no doubt and it's why I said:

I'm sure I could resolve this issue with a little bit of tweaking but this is another example of the challenges anyone using a PPC system will face.​
 
Of this I have no doubt and it's why I said:

I'm sure I could resolve this issue with a little bit of tweaking but this is another example of the challenges anyone using a PPC system will face.​
You are arguing that how the addon works is a challenge?

I don't know what to say. uMatrix gives you options and choices, just like any other addon - or really, any kind of thing that comes with Preferences or Settings, options or features.
 
You are arguing that how the addon works is a challenge?
It's not an issue of whether uMatrix makes it easy to change. It's an issue of knowing what the issue is an therefore making the change.

This reminds me of an internship I did when I was in high school. It was with a TV repair company (am I dating myself?) who went to a house and performed a very simple step to fix the TV. I said to the technician "You're charging them x dollars to do that simple task?". To which he responded: It's not the task which I'm charging for but rather knowing that I need to perform the task. IOW it's the knowledge which has the value, not the actual steps. uMatrix makes it easier to perform adjustments but knowing to perform (and what to perform) is the challenge. That's the piece the average user isn't going to know. To them the page just doesn't work.
 
It's not an issue of whether uMatrix makes it easy to change. It's an issue of knowing what the issue is an therefore making the change.

This reminds me of an internship I did when I was in high school. It was with a TV repair company (am I dating myself?) who went to a house and performed a very simple step to fix the TV. I said to the technician "You're charging them x dollars to do that simple task?". To which he responded: It's not the task which I'm charging for but rather knowing that I need to perform the task. IOW it's the knowledge which has the value, not the actual steps. uMatrix makes it easier to perform adjustments but knowing to perform (and what to perform) is the challenge. That's the piece the average user isn't going to know. To them the page just doesn't work.
Again, I have to disagree.

Oh, I certainly agree with your example about knowledge. I'm a graphic designer. I'm paid not for what I do or produce, but what I know about the programs I use and how they work. But as I've already stated that to me the 'average' user would know about and use addons, then by association the 'average' user would know that addons generally come with settings and preferences. They wouldn't necessarily know all the settings but they would have the concept.

But again, we see things differently. :D
 
Again, I have to disagree.

Oh, I certainly agree with your example about knowledge. I'm a graphic designer. I'm paid not for what I do or produce, but what I know about the programs I use and how they work. But as I've already stated that to me the 'average' user would know about and use addons, then by association the 'average' user would know that addons generally come with settings and preferences. They wouldn't necessarily know all the settings but they would have the concept.

But again, we see things differently. :D
It's not that I see things differently, it's that I have experienced it. What is easy and natural for you and I is not for the average user.

I posed that I was happy with the benefits of uMatrix but I knew it had some downsides. This is one of those downsides. Contrast this to using the Mini which doesn't have these downsides. In the end I would be uncomfortable recommending a PPC Mac with uMatrix over a Mini running a more modern, even though not current, version of Mac OS.
 
It's not an issue of whether uMatrix makes it easy to change. It's an issue of knowing what the issue is an therefore making the change.

This reminds me of an internship I did when I was in high school. It was with a TV repair company (am I dating myself?) who went to a house and performed a very simple step to fix the TV. I said to the technician "You're charging them x dollars to do that simple task?". To which he responded: It's not the task which I'm charging for but rather knowing that I need to perform the task. IOW it's the knowledge which has the value, not the actual steps. uMatrix makes it easier to perform adjustments but knowing to perform (and what to perform) is the challenge. That's the piece the average user isn't going to know. To them the page just doesn't work.

That's a bit like the old tale of the mechanic who is hired to fix a broken factory machine. He hits it with a hammer, it works, and he charges the factory $5000. The furious manager demands to know how that could cost so much. The mechanic tells him the hammer cost $5, but knowing where to hit with the hammer cost $4995.
 
  • Like
Reactions: defjam
I'm sure I could resolve this issue with a little bit of tweaking but this is another example of the challenges anyone using a PPC system will face.
It's not an issue of whether uMatrix makes it easy to change. It's an issue of knowing what the issue is an therefore making the change.

I could see your point there for a while, but your argument becomes increasingly untenable.

Let's say computing technology exists on a moving ribbon of sorts. The PPC Mac community is on that ribbon, but like all computing technology, it cannot keep up with the ribbon's pace. The trailing edge is some distance behind us, and it's a ragged edge, because those who continue to successfully utilize "obsolete" equipment fray it here and there. But we're somewhere near the back, and as the leading edge advances, the trailing edge gets closer to us. This is true of all computing, no matter where on the ribbon a particular technology/user group finds itself at any given point in time. Some make valiant efforts to anchor themselves in place and force the ribbon to stretch instead of leaving them behind, but invariably the trailing edge of obsolescence creeps up on them. Such is technology.

The point is, no matter what kind of computer you suggest to the "average" user, by taking your advice they will inevitably get left behind. They'll have to continue seeking your, or others', help... unless they gain knowledge and develop skills to keep their equipment useful. To paraphrase a proverb, it's the difference between someone being given a fish, or gaining knowledge needed to fish for themselves.

No Mac, not even an Intel-powered one, is a good choice for someone unwilling to learn. I have early Intel Macs in my stable right now that struggle online nearly as much as my PPC systems unless I use tricks like uMatrix/hosts files/etc. If I want more current and secure browsing options I have to use community-developed hacks to get later versions of OS X onto them, or switch to Linux. This will become true of every Mac manufactured today, unless Apple changes their business model. It's just a matter of time.

If the hypothetical "average" user lacks both financial resources and a willingness to learn, there are systems that will serve their needs, but certainly not a Mac. Used Android devices and Win10-capable computers are available practically everywhere for next to nothing, or often nothing at all. If the user is willing to accept whatever their wireless carrier and/or Google/Microsoft gives them, then their needs are met. When the device is no longer supported, they just repeat the process.

I'm not advocating such. I'm just saying your proposed solution - pointing someone toward a used Intel Mac so they won't have to try so hard - isn't really a solution at all. The answer doesn't lie in a particular kind of hardware, but in knowledge. Case in point: this very day I've had to put on my IT hat because my wife (a teacher) is now working from home, and her school district's sole IT guy is swamped. I've had to deal with the school's hardware and my own, with two different Windows versions and OS X El Cap, to cobble together some sort of solution that gets her access to the resources she needs. I'm no tech genius, I didn't know what to do, but I've learned enough to know where to look to figure things out, and it got us by when we needed it. What you seem to consider an "average" user - which, frankly, I once was - couldn't have coped, regardless of what hardware they were using.
 
Let's say computing technology exists on a moving ribbon of sorts. The PPC Mac community is on that ribbon, but like all computing technology, it cannot keep up with the ribbon's pace. The trailing edge is some distance behind us, and it's a ragged edge, because those who continue to successfully utilize "obsolete" equipment fray it here and there. But we're somewhere near the back, and as the leading edge advances, the trailing edge gets closer to us. This is true of all computing, no matter where on the ribbon a particular technology/user group finds itself at any given point in time. Some make valiant efforts to anchor themselves in place and force the ribbon to stretch instead of leaving them behind, but invariably the trailing edge of obsolescence creeps up on them. Such is technology.

An elegant way of putting things ...
 
I could see your point there for a while, but your argument becomes increasingly untenable.
Yes, eventually the early Intel Macs are going to find themselves in the same situation as PPC systems. To which they can sell their existing Mac and purchase a newer older Mac which is currently supported.

You can sing the virtues of how the average user should become more knowledgeable (something I don't disagree with) but the reality is they will not. So the decision becomes should they purchase a system which is going to require them to do more than a similarly priced system which doesn't require as much work?

Here's the reality:

PPC System: Download TenFourFox, figure out where to obtain plugins (since the standard Firefox plugins are no longer supported), then figure out why you can't view / post to a particular web site, adjust the plugin (uMatrix in this case), then accept the performance degradation because you've now exempted the site from blocking, rinse and repeat.

2009 Mini: Start up Safari and browse the web or if you prefer Firefox download the latest version and use it.

This doesn't even speak to other performance or obsolete software issues (to name a couple) with PPC based systems. Currently Mini runs much more current software than any PPC based system. Will software support erode for it? Certainly, that's to be expected. When that happens the user can then sell it and purchase a newer older Macintosh. Likewise it is considerably faster in a specific task which is time intensice (measured in hours, not seconds).

The reality is an older (but not the oldest) Intel based Macintosh systems can be had for similar, if not lower, cost of a PPC based system while offering much better software support and performance (generally speaking). I, just like the YouTuber in the first video of the OP, cannot, in good conscious, recommend the average user purchase a PPC based system. This advice is not aimed at the enthusiast, people who have PPC specifics constraints, or the participants of this forum.

Finally, the YouTuber offering the advice did not come to this forum and attempt to dissuade anyone here from using PPC systems.
 
Here's the reality:

The reality is the average Joe user might have a fixed budget and that early Intel is not always available at the right price - a quick glance on ebay shows the cheapest BIN 2009 Mini to be £79.99, conversely the last Dual G5 I had I bought last year for £5.
Prices being equal, Intel Mac is an obvious choice but the price parity isn't always there.
 
The reality is the average Joe user might have a fixed budget and that early Intel is not always available at the right price - a quick glance on ebay shows the cheapest BIN 2009 Mini to be £79.99, conversely the last Dual G5 I had I bought last year for £5.
Prices being equal, Intel Mac is an obvious choice but the price parity isn't always there.
Come on, let's not equate edge cases with the average. If £5 is your limit then I would suggest a Macintosh is not for you. One could probably pick up a much more capable, newer Windows based systems for free.
 
You can sing the virtues of how the average user should become more knowledgeable (something I don't disagree with) but the reality is they will not.

The reality is that they will have to. Your suggestion leaves your hypothetical average user at an ongoing disadvantage, one they will have to overcome sooner or later, one way or another. How are they to know which system to upgrade to when their 2009 Mini gets left behind? How can they make sense of their choices? They're either going to have to take the initiative to learn something, or once again depend completely upon someone else's advice.

I don't care about PowerPC vs Intel, I use both and have reasons for the systems I've chosen. I think this became a different discussion when you suggested that learning to use a browser extension was too much to ask of an average user. And a platform-independent extension at that; it's just as much help to any Intel machine as it is to a Power Mac.

There's no escaping the fact that in order to keep up with advancing technology, no matter where one happens to be on that spectrum, a user must either learn something for themselves or remain helplessly at the mercy of others. My point is that your solution to the problem of aging technology isn't a solution at all; at best it's a stopgap measure, simply delaying the inevitable.
 
The reality is that they will have to. Your suggestion leaves your hypothetical average user at an ongoing disadvantage, one they will have to overcome sooner or later, one way or another. How are they to know which system to upgrade to when their 2009 Mini gets left behind? How can they make sense of their choices? They're either going to have to take the initiative to learn something, or once again depend completely upon someone else's advice.
Simple, they'll ask the same person who will tell them how to configure a PPC system.

I don't care about PowerPC vs Intel, I use both and have reasons for the systems I've chosen. I think this became a different discussion when you suggested that learning to use a browser extension was too much to ask of an average user. And a platform-independent extension at that; it's just as much help to any Intel machine as it is to a Power Mac.
The reality is, it is. Especially when:
  • The extension isn't easily located. One has to do research in order to find it.
  • The extension has down sides.
There's no escaping the fact that in order to keep up with advancing technology, no matter where one happens to be on that spectrum, a user must either learn something for themselves or remain helplessly at the mercy of others. My point is that your solution to the problem of aging technology isn't a solution at all; at best it's a stopgap measure, simply delaying the inevitable.
We're all on the technology merry-go-round. My solution is to minimize the impact. Your solution is to expect the user to know more. For what benefit? Aside from edge cases, today, buying a 2009 Mac Mini over a PPC based doesn't appear to have any disadvantage. Furthermore no matter how much knowledge a user has won't reduce the transcoding speed of a DVD from roughly 13 hours down to roughly three.

You want to continue using PPC systems because you enjoy it? Knock yourself out. No one is trying to change your mind. The YouTuber offering the advice did not come to this forum and start a thread about how you should move off of PPC and onto an early Mini. Just about everyone in this forum are primarily enthusiasts who want to keep this gear going strong. I am an enthusiast (I work with even older equipment). But I realize these are enthusiast or special use case systems. That is the reality.
 
PPC System: Download TenFourFox, figure out where to obtain plugins (since the standard Firefox plugins are no longer supported), then figure out why you can't view / post to a particular web site, adjust the plugin (uMatrix in this case), then accept the performance degradation because you've now exempted the site from blocking, rinse and repeat.
Bold emphasis mine.

I feel like we are hit and miss on this.

The point of the addon is to block certain SPECIFIC items. The point of that is to allow the site to function without degradation in performance.

If you're using uMatrix or any other similar addon to simply allow or block the entire damn thing then you're missing the whole point.

On this particular forum with uMatrix I have addthrive.com, googletagemanager.com, quantserve.com and skimresources.com blocked for cookies, media, css, scripts, XHR, frame and other.

MacRumors wants and needs access to scripts on geni.us and ajax.googleapis.com. ytimg.com, which is Yahoo's image domain is also asking to access images. For these, scripts and images is all I've allowed them access to. So, I've blocked all the advertising and analytical garbage while allowing the essential parts that the site needs to function.

The result is that the site functions speedily without a degrade in performance and is not broken because the addon is being used to IMPROVE performance BECAUSE I've made these adjustments.

Again, if you're using this addon to block or unblock everything (like a switch) then that's not how it's supposed to be used.

One final thing that is specific to this forum. In the message body area in the formatting bar there is a preference gear. Click on it so that it's red. The formatting bar runs JS in the background. Red is off. It means you have to use tags for formatting, but on PowerPC Macs having that JS not running makes a huge difference.
 
Last edited:
Simple, they'll ask the same person who will tell them how to configure a PPC system.

Either you're making my point for me, or that was sarcasm.

The reality is, it is. Especially when:
  • The extension isn't easily located. One has to do research in order to find it.
  • The extension has down sides.

Well first, it's not like the thing is hidden. Or is using a search engine also too much for your average user? Next, it's not like uMatrix is the only way of accomplishing a better browsing experience, in fact far from it. Finally, so what?...is there anything that doesn't have a down side?

We're all on the technology merry-go-round. My solution is to minimize the impact. Your solution is to expect the user to know more. For what benefit?

No my solution isn't to expect anybody to just "know more". That makes no sense, you have to get the knowledge somewhere. The benefit seems obvious, I mean - you know more. Are you saying there's no point in trying to learn more about computers?

You want to continue using PPC systems because you enjoy it? Knock yourself out. No one is trying to change your mind.

Look, I don't feel threatened here. I don't see anybody trying to change my mind, nor would it bother me if they did. Do you feel threatened? Because it seems what you're trying to say here is that I should just shut up.
 
How so? You cited the advantage of a 2009 Mini over a non-specified PPC, I merely used ebay as of today to provide a costing and the Mini was more than double the price of a Dual G5 under BIN - for an "average user" that price might have a bearing.

eBay is incredibly variable. I can't see a single PowerMac G5 under $60 BIN, let alone one that works and that's not including the $100+ shipping charges to get it to me from the states on eBay.ca. Intel Mac Minis are considerably more common, way smaller, and more reliable. All that adds up to them being easier to find used with generally lower prices and far cheaper shipping than a PowerPC G5.

If absolute price is a concern used PCs are dirt cheap or free and almost always more powerful than anything from the PPC era these days. I can easily find a refurbished PC locally or online for less than $100 that will be bare minimum 5 years newer than a PowerMac G5 from a multitude of sources. The only reason to go PPC is because you're an enthusiast or you luck into an amazing deal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.