You Can/Can't Still Use PowerPC Macs in 2020!

[2984839]

I usually don't like blanket statements, and the first guy was very blanket statement-y. I understand he clarified in the comments that they are still usable for tinkerers, but there are lots of uses for a computer beyond Netflix and Facebook. I use mine all the time for real work, and with modern up to date software too. I use them for network administration, development, writing proposals, email, and yes, web browsing.

No, I'm not recommending one for my completely non-technical great aunt, but nobody would, nor is anyone making that argument.

 

[sparty411]

As a simplification, thinking you're safe by using even the most secure operating system in the world running on a post-965 Intel chipset is like hiding in a maximum security underground maze with a tracking device on your back.

Any Intel computer equipped with the Management Engine by definition automatically forfeits security.

But of course, the average Joe that just wants to play Fortnite and watch 4K YouTube likely doesn't place much priority on that stuff anyway.



All I've ever had to do is go to the addon's GitHub releases page, download the latest available "firefox.xpi" option, and TFF automatically installs it as an addon. No file movement required.



The linked iMac G5 has a 533mhz bus, making it the slowest G5.

As for the second slowest G5, that would probably be the 1.6 Power Mac as that pulls a GeekBench score of 918 as opposed to the 1.8's 1005. The Power Mac G4 MDD 1.47 had a 167mhz bus, and in many tests was shown to either keep up or go toe to toe with the low-end G5s, even with their massively faster FSB speeds. - Case in point, the MDD 1.42's GB is 1224.

Older Intel processors are also vulnerable to a host of side channel attacks, many of which do not apply to AMD parts. If one wishes to go full on tin foil hat, while maintaining x86 compatibility, they'd be better off using anything from the socket 754 era through AM3+ era. Intel anything is swiss cheese, security wise. ESPECIALLY the older Core 2 Stuff, which never received microcode updates for the potential side channel exploits that have been brought to light over the last several years. But, then again, if someone is using an operating system that hasn't sniffed a security update in roughly a decade, they probably aren't all too concerned about security.


I gave up caring about all of that, as the gubmint could probably rek my anus anytime they wanted to, regardless of what operating system / hardware I'm using. I bought a new cheap HP laptop with Windows 10 Home, a Ryzen 3 APU, 8GB of RAM, and a 128GB SSD for only $280 bucks. Talk about a steal.

 

[z970]

Older Intel processors are also vulnerable to a host of side channel attacks, many of which do not apply to AMD parts. If one wishes to go full on tin foil hat, while maintaining x86 compatibility, they'd be better off using anything from the socket 754 era through AM3+ era. Intel anything is swiss cheese, security wise. ESPECIALLY the older Core 2 Stuff, which never received microcode updates for the potential side channel exploits that have been brought to light over the last several years.

Hence my preference for PowerPC.

 

[defjam]

Get a Core 2 system running on a 945 chipset then - no ME as you know, and good performance. Any Late 2006 Intel Mac, save for the Mac Pro, fits the bill.

Based in part on this discussion I just purchased a 2009 Mac Mini for $60.00 including shipping. I am interested to see how this compares to the PPC G5 I have. I suspect it will easily outperform it.
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I usually don't like blanket statements, and the first guy was very blanket statement-y. I understand he clarified in the comments that they are still usable for tinkerers, but there are lots of uses for a computer beyond Netflix and Facebook. I use mine all the time for real work, and with modern up to date software too. I use them for network administration, development, writing proposals, email, and yes, web browsing.

No, I'm not recommending one for my completely non-technical great aunt, but nobody would, nor is anyone making that argument.

The first guy was right on the money. He gave solid reasons for his recommendation and I have yet to see anyone demonstrate those reasons are in error.
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Older Intel processors are also vulnerable to a host of side channel attacks, many of which do not apply to AMD parts. If one wishes to go full on tin foil hat, while maintaining x86 compatibility, they'd be better off using anything from the socket 754 era through AM3+ era. Intel anything is swiss cheese, security wise. ESPECIALLY the older Core 2 Stuff, which never received microcode updates for the potential side channel exploits that have been brought to light over the last several years. But, then again, if someone is using an operating system that hasn't sniffed a security update in roughly a decade, they probably aren't all too concerned about security.


I gave up caring about all of that, as the gubmint could probably rek my anus anytime they wanted to, regardless of what operating system / hardware I'm using. I bought a new cheap HP laptop with Windows 10 Home, a Ryzen 3 APU, 8GB of RAM, and a 128GB SSD for only $280 bucks. Talk about a steal.

IMO the processor issues are primarily of concern to hosted environments. For personal systems, as used in this forum, they're effectively non-issues because, in order to exploit them, the system must have been compromised through some other means. Which means you're already infected

 

[2984839]

Based in part on this discussion I just purchased a 2009 Mac Mini for $60.00 including shipping. I am interested to see how this compares to the PPC G5 I have. I suspect it will easily outperform it.
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The first guy was right on the money. He gave solid reasons for his recommendation and I have yet to see anyone demonstrate those reasons are in error.

He said you can't use them in 2020. I do. That's why he's in error.

 

[sparty411]

Based in part on this discussion I just purchased a 2009 Mac Mini for $60.00 including shipping. I am interested to see how this compares to the PPC G5 I have. I suspect it will easily outperform it.
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The first guy was right on the money. He gave solid reasons for his recommendation and I have yet to see anyone demonstrate those reasons are in error.
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IMO the processor issues are primarily of concern to hosted environments. For personal systems, as used in this forum, they're effectively non-issues because, in order to exploit them, the system must have been compromised through some other means. Which means you're already infected

I completely agree, which is why I use a modern x86 machine as my primary computer.

 

[defjam]

He said you can't use them in 2020. I do. That's why he's in error.

He didn't say you can't use them. He said you can't reasonably use them. For those who are not enthusiasts or have a specific need he's correct.

 

[salamanderjuice]

Hence my preference for PowerPC.

So safe! Basically any processor with speculative execution is a valid target for SPECTRE. Intel is widely used and so widely publicized but they aren't the only CPUs with flaws. There's way easier backdoors anyways for most PPC Mac users than side channel attacks, because again, a 10+ year old operating system is way easier to hack through.

 

[eyoungren]

He didn't say you can't use them. He said you can't reasonably use them. For those who are not enthusiasts or have a specific need he's correct.

Would it be fair to say (in your opinion) that the argument in this entire thread then is over the definition of the word reasonable?

And if so, are you more or less inclined to agree with his definition of it because it aligns most with your definition?

I see reasonable differently I think and I know quite a few others here do as well (hence this argument). Not that I take any issue with how you define it. I believe you've already expressed your view on it.

I was just wondering because how we all view this means we are approaching it very differently, and I can't say that my view on the issue is right or superior based on that. It's just different than yours I think.
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Based in part on this discussion I just purchased a 2009 Mac Mini for $60.00 including shipping. I am interested to see how this compares to the PPC G5 I have. I suspect it will easily outperform it.

I got the same Mini a couple of months ago, only I paid $15 more (and then killed part of the BT antenna). So far it's been a really nice Mac. I installed Sierra on mine, although it kills the WiFi. Which is okay because I have it connected via ethernet.

 

[1042686]

I interpreted reasonable as the end user not needing to excessively tinker, tweak & adjust their Mac in order for the system to speedily work. With auto update set to on, it just works and that sounds like your average user - which no one here is really.

Oh the irony.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

If I may, it seems that the terms "unusable" and "reasonable" weren't explicitly defined, so there is a grey area there as to what exactly they mean. This relative vagueness led to misunderstandings which led to this debate/argument in the first place.

In theory, given they weren't explicitly defined, it is a subjective matter and is therefore reasonable to have differing opinions as the definitions aren't set in stone.

(I'm not trying to be pedantic or anything like that, I apologize if that's how it comes across)

 

[z970]

So safe! Basically any processor with speculative execution is a valid target for SPECTRE. Intel is widely used and so widely publicized but they aren't the only CPUs with flaws.

I'm well aware of that. But when comparing the two, a G5 for instance is most certainly not "swiss cheese"... If I recall correctly, it simply has less potential areas of attack than a Pentium 4, or Core Duo. Hence, my personal preference.

There's way easier backdoors anyways for most PPC Mac users than side channel attacks, because again, a 10+ year old operating system is way easier to hack through.

...Which is partly fueling the push for PowerPC Linux (and to a smaller scale OpenBSD), and rightfully so. On the whole, its superior security, Internet capabilities, and other qualities make these advantages self evident to anybody seriously interested in relying on a PowerPC for online duties in 2020+.

 

[cernorama]

PowerPCs are perfectly capable of running in 2020.. the issue is the environment your using them in, you're gonna have limitations using 0S9 and OSX, but throw on a modern linux flavor and sky is the limit for most things with knowledge of how to compile you open yourself up to even more things. So the question shouldn't be can a powerpc be used in 2020 but can the apple OSs used on them be used in 2020.

 

[Amethyst1]

Based in part on this discussion I just purchased a 2009 Mac Mini for $60.00 including shipping. I am interested to see how this compares to the PPC G5 I have. I suspect it will easily outperform it.

The Mini will run circles around the G5.
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...Which is partly fueling the push for PowerPC Linux (and to a smaller scale OpenBSD), and rightfully so.

The problem is (and I know you know that) - PowerPC has become a niché platform supported only by a few Linux distros, and even then, it's not automatically supported well. Debian's unstable branch has a few issues to say the least, Ubuntu will drop PPC next year, Adélie and Void still have a (long) way to go on PPC. OpenBSD seems to work better as far has drivers are concerned but there are problems with web browsers. Compare this to the hundreds of Linux distros out there you can throw on any old x86 box and be on the road in no time.
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So the question shouldn't be can a powerpc be used in 2020 but can the apple OSs used on them be used in 2020.

That's it. But - the largest part of the reason I (and, presumably, some others out there) own Macs is that they run Apple's OSes. If I want a Linux box, I can use any old x86 hardware I happen to come across and get a much better experience than on a PPC Mac.

 

[salamanderjuice]

I'm well aware of that. But when comparing the two, a G5 for instance is most certainly not "swiss cheese"... If I recall correctly, it simply has less potential areas of attack than a Pentium 4, or Core Duo. Hence, my personal preference.



...Which is partly fueling the push for PowerPC Linux (and to a smaller scale OpenBSD), and rightfully so. On the whole, its superior security, Internet capabilities, and other qualities make these advantages self evident to anybody seriously interested in relying on a PowerPC for online duties in 2020+.

G5 is vulnerable to both Meltdown and SPECTRE.If you trust this blogpost the "better" machines to use are the older G3s and G4s. Which are even less internet capable than the G5s.

A modern AMD machine isn't vulnerable to Meltdown, will get fixes and can be had for pretty cheap and will run basically any linux distro you want up to date easily. Relying on a 15 year old processor for security is absurd.

 

[defjam]

Would it be fair to say (in your opinion) that the argument in this entire thread then is over the definition of the word reasonable?

That's a possibility.

And if so, are you more or less inclined to agree with his definition of it because it aligns most with your definition?

I am in alignment with his definition based on the audience he created the video for. Which aligns with the definition provided by RhianB. I would not be in alignment with it if he had targeted the video towards users of this forum.

I was just wondering because how we all view this means we are approaching it very differently, and I can't say that my view on the issue is right or superior based on that. It's just different than yours I think.

How would you define reasonable?

I got the same Mini a couple of months ago, only I paid $15 more (and then killed part of the BT antenna). So far it's been a really nice Mac. I installed Sierra on mine, although it kills the WiFi. Which is okay because I have it connected via ethernet.

I'm interested to see how it will fair browsing the web. My PPC reference will be the dual 2.3GHz system I recently gave away.
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If I may, it seems that the terms "unusable" and "reasonable" weren't explicitly defined, so there is a grey area there as to what exactly they mean. This relative vagueness led to misunderstandings which led to this debate/argument in the first place.

Some people didn't use the qualifier "reasonable":

He said you can't use them in 2020.​

Anyone who watched the video would know this.

In theory, given they weren't explicitly defined, it is a subjective matter and is therefore reasonable to have differing opinions as the definitions aren't set in stone.

Absolutely valid to have differing opinions. What is acceptable to one may not be acceptable to others. But at some point I think we have to agree on a common definition that allows for some leeway. It was my inference the purpose of this thread was to have such a discussion. However some individuals, including the OP himself, appear to be upset with any definition that doesn't align with theirs.

 

[andloph]

I own several old machines that I randomly use.
Lately I have being using a lot again my amiga 1200. What for ? Old school gaming and hardware/ software hacking.
Does that mean this thing is "usable" for most people?
No, for the majority of people this is just a piece of junk.
In my opinion it is an amazing piece of tech with an amazing & very talented community that still does its best to "support" it nowadays but it is what it is : useless for almost everyone else.

Same applies to the g4 powerbook I got last week.
I use it on a daily basis mainly for coding but also reading my mail, writing texts, excel sheets and some gaming. I actually carry it around almost every day.
Does that mean this thing is usable ?
For me, absolutely yes. That's why I got another one.
For the majority of people, no and in my opinion the average user shouldn´t even consider a pice of tech like this as a possible solution for today's common tasks, because it just isn't. He will be disappointed by the usability and performance.
I have always wondered what people is thinking about when they start suggesting 10 year old old tech as a valid option to someone they don't even know or without even knowing what that user will be doing with it ... what's the point ?

 

[Dronecatcher]

I have always wondered what people is thinking about when they start suggesting 10 year old old tech as a valid option to someone they don't even know or without even knowing what that user will be doing with it ... what's the point ?

I agree but there are some exceptions.
Someone with a very low budget who doesn't want to get to grips with Linux - if they opt for a Windows machine they have to pay for a Windows licence too (which they can't afford) or they are at the mercy of a cracked version with all the problems that can cause.
An early generation Intel Mac however can easily do most general purpose tasks and has a number of OS options.
My daily driver for 2 years has been a Mac Pro 1,1 running Snow Leopard and I've no complaints.

I'll cite another real world example.
A work collegue was bemoaning his Windows 7 laptop for being useless for making music - software/driver conflicts amongst other things. As he was a Propellerheads Reason user I suggested he had a computer purely for making music on and gave him my spare 800 Mhz eMac preloaded with Tiger, Propellerheads Reason 3 and a few gigabyte of samples.

 

[defjam]

I have always wondered what people is thinking about when they start suggesting 10 year old old tech as a valid option to someone they don't even know or without even knowing what that user will be doing with it ... what's the point ?

Here is what I think led the first YouTuber in the OP to create the video linked to in the OP:

• He has a YouTube channel to which he has published videos regarding PPC systems.
• He became aware that some viewers of his channel either had or were considering the purchase of PPC systems based in part from these videos.
• Some users were surprised at the limitations of these systems for their intended tasks and requested assistance / mentioned it to him / some other form of awareness.
• He decided to make the video to discuss the usefulness of these older systems.

This is all opinion based on two videos of his I watched. It may or may not be correct but seems reasonable to me.
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Someone with a very low budget who doesn't want to get to grips with Linux - if they opt for a Windows machine they have to pay for a Windows licence too (which they can't afford) or they are at the mercy of a cracked version with all the problems that can cause.

IMO Windows licensing is a non-issue as the vast majority of systems, relatively speaking and Macs excepted, are licensed for some version of Windows. Excepting Macs I think it would be much more difficult to find a system which lacked a Windows license.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

Absolutely valid to have differing opinions. What is acceptable to one may not be acceptable to others. But at some point I think we have to agree on a common definition that allows for some leeway. It was my inference the purpose of this thread was to have such a discussion. However some individuals, including the OP himself, appear to be upset with any definition that doesn't align with theirs.

It's possible this is just a large misunderstanding. I mean, looking back I'm not sure anyone ever really acknowledged that everyone likely has differing definitions and therefore only operate on their own definition as opposed to putting what people are saying into the context of their definition.

Honestly, this thread is reminding me a lot of this segment of video at this point:

 

[defjam]

It's possible this is just a large misunderstanding. I mean, looking back I'm not sure anyone ever really acknowledged that everyone likely has differing definitions and therefore only operate on their own definition as opposed to putting what people are saying into the context of their definition.

My very first post on this topic, which was the seventh post in the thread, essentially did just that:

So in the end if a system is useable or not is highly dependent on what you need the system to do and your tolerance for how long it will take to complete any given task.​

It didn't focus specifically on the definition of the word reasonable but it did speak to why some people would find them useful while others not so much.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

My very first post on this topic, which was the seventh post in the thread, essentially did just that:

So in the end if a system is useable or not is highly dependent on what you need the system to do and your tolerance for how long it will take to complete any given task.​

It didn't focus specifically on the definition of the word reasonable but it did speak to why some people would find them useful while others not so much.

Oh! My apologies, I must have missed that.

Tbh I'm sort of getting tired of debating this. It's really a no-win situation that will cause more stratification rather than unification and, in the end, shouldn't it be love for one another as opposed to disdain that helps us keep PPC Macs alive?

 

[defjam]

Tbh I'm sort of getting tired of debating this. It's really a no-win situation that will cause more stratification rather than unification and, in the end, shouldn't it be love for one another as opposed to disdain that helps us keep PPC Macs alive?

I thought the OPs intent was to have a discussion about the pros and cons of using PPC systems in 2020. Apparently I was incorrect in that assumption as it now appears the intent was to criticize the YouTuber in the first video he linked to in his OP.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

I thought the OPs intent was to have a discussion about the pros and cons of using PPC systems in 2020. Apparently I was incorrect in that assumption as it now appears the intent was to criticize the YouTuber in the first video he linked to in his OP.

Yeah. A discussion would be nice, and that's what I thought it was at first as well. As you know, I'm strongly in the camp of "PPC Macs are still reasonably usable in today's world," but I do see where they're not best for every use case (like if someone wants to play modern games. "To each their own" is a good way of thinking about this I believe. If it works for you, awesome. If not, that's ok too and I respect that.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I thought the OPs intent was to have a discussion about the pros and cons of using PPC systems in 2020. Apparently I was incorrect in that assumption as it now appears the intent was to criticize the YouTuber in the first video he linked to in his OP.

No, my intent was to show the videos for the benefit of anyone who'd missed them and to provide entertainment - not start a war of words.
And yes, I was critical of the first linked video author because he's been previously negligent in his evaluation of PPC with regard to facts.