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Basically, to get the most out of your buck, you have these choices:

If you have a perfectly good workstation now and can use it until April+ 2011, then wait. You'll be getting Sandy Bridge's "USB3, LightPeak, SATA3, PCI Express 3.0 (twice the bandwidth), native support for 1600 MHz RAM, 8 cores, and higher performance", and it'll be a much better buy than ANY Westmere of today (which is merely a die-shrink of November 2008's Nehalem).

If you don't have a workstation now but need one, then either get a Westmere workstation when they come out if you don't mind the entire architecture becoming obsolete in 9-10 months, or get something cheaper for now such as last year's technology (I'll most likely hit this camp).

If you don't have a need for a workstation now, but want one later, then wait for Sandy Bridge and use something like an iMac, MacBook or Mac Mini for now.

What cheaper option are you referring to in your second scenario? A refurb? And are you really disciplined enough to pass on the new Mac Pro that hypothetically comes out at the end of this month :D

I agree with the tone of your posts and share in your frustration.
 
It's Apple. Add a year on to the Intel release before Apple allows us to buy it. :rolleyes:
 
Is SJ responding to the Newsweek column or the sender of the email?

The sender said: "I believe and hope that the Mac will remain a vibrant, vital part of Apple's future and one of its (admittedly many) product lines" He then asks SJ: "So, as you view it, does the Mac have a long and important history ahead of it?" And SJ responds: "Completely wrong. Just wait."

Who's wrong is SJ's estimation, the emailer or those that speculate about the Macopalypse? Maybe SJ is too cryptic :D

Very nice catch, I wondered the same when reading the article, but assumed they were just quoting some reply that some regular person had received and tried to pass it off as Steve Jobs responding to their article. :p Either way I'm glad Steve Jobs says it's "Completely wrong" to think that they've given up on the Pro market.

What cheaper option are you referring to in your second scenario? A refurb? And are you really disciplined enough to pass on the new Mac Pro that hypothetically comes out at the end of this month :D

I agree with the tone of your posts and share in your frustration.

Thanks, there are quite a lot of us now, Pro users that are fed up with being treated like dirt just because it's all about the "iToys" now.

What I meant about the second scenario was getting last year's technology either via a refurb, second-hand or a cheap Hackintosh. They are still powerful machines and will be excellent to tide you over into 2011, where you'll be able to get the vastly superior Sandy Bridge (SB) <-- (click) architecture. I'll update the post to clarify this.

It's Apple. Add a year on to the Intel release before Apple allows us to buy it. :rolleyes:

Hopefully not. Apple has received early exclusive access from Intel in the past, so it's not impossible that they'll be first out. Even if they do decide to screw us over and delay a Sandy Bridge update next year, it's always easy to build one yourself with off-the-shelf parts (Hackety-hack), which in my opinion is perfectly fine to do when we're dealing with a company that doesn't treat their Pro customers' needs right. Let's hope that Westmere upgrade comes soon so that 2009's second-hand value drops further. ;-) The 2009's will be nice and cheap and powerful enough while waiting for Sandy Bridge.
 
By the time these are put in Mac Pros, Intel will announce new CPUs. Then when those are put in, they will announce even newer CPUs. Technology is always growing and always will.
 
By the time these are put in Mac Pros, Intel will announce new CPUs. Then when those are put in, they will announce even newer CPUs. Technology is always growing and always will.

Westmeres are not "new CPUs", they are die-shrunk (size-reduced) Nehalems, giving them slightly better performance and allowing them to fit more cores inside each processor (they went from 4-core to 6-core) but doesn't offer any new features.

Intel alternates between releasing new architectures and then shrinking those architectures, in a tick-tock fashion. You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock#Roadmap

Sandy Bridge is a big deal and will bring loads of the latest technology (USB3, LightPeak, SATA3, PCI Express 3.0 (twice the bandwidth), native support for 1600 MHz RAM, 8 cores per processor, and higher performance); whereas the Westmere that came out 3 months ago is just a Nehalem that has been reduced in size.

The reason it's being discussed is that this completely new architecture is not that far off, and will replace Nehalem/Westmere with a bunch of new technology and ports that will soon be required by more and more modern devices. Consumer models of Sandy Bridge will be mass-produced in Q4 2010, and server-models in April+ (Q2) 2011. Read the first post for a summary and possibly some help on whether you should wait or not.
 
Two points. Westmere will not become "obsolete" when Sandy Bridge launches. It will still be an incredibly capable architecture. Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 08 Pro upgrade include CPUs that no one else had access to yet?
 
Sandy Bridge is a big deal and will bring loads of the latest technology; whereas Westmere is just a Nehalem that has been reduced in size (giving them slightly better performance and allowing them to fit more cores inside each processor).

You call ~50% increase just a slight one? I think two extra cores are pretty significant in terms of performance, especially when they run at some clocks as quad cores. Sandy Bridge may not bring eight core for Mac Pro yet because of price, who knows? Of course SB will bring other improvements e.g. AVX.

Sandy Bridge is still at least a year away and we never know when Apple will use them, just like they have done with Westmere. See my post from previous post for some other details about the release date
 
Yes, it's often the case that the most powerful Macs are Hackintoshes, it's freaking horrible. :( You don't have that problem on the PC side, where you can just get the most powerful components and build anything cheaply. That's why most of the 3D rendering industry is back on Windows or Linux workstations now. I've seen one Windows machine with 288 GB Ram, dual X5680s, 24 SSDs in a RAID configuration. To say that it edited HD movies quickly is an understatement. You can't get anything even close to that in a Mac.

Very true. The other side of the spectrum has the best hardware in the industry and more options to choose from compared to the Mac side. The OS we have is a dream, and our hardware design is top notch, but we just can't get bleeding edge hardware for the life of us.

Sounds like that cutter is using a server as his workstation, but I can see him using it and upgrading it for years to come. Oh, and it must have paid close to $100,000 for it too.

Just once I'd like to see Apple give us bleeding edge in workstation or 17" laptop. I think they did back when they offered SAS drives, but I am sure they didn't sell much of them, since anyone with half an IT mind would just buy them from somewhere else.

I'd also love to see Apple offer a barebones Mac Pro kit to bring the price down. Just give me the mobo, system discs, processors, and daughter board w/risers. Let me grab everything else.
 
Two points. Westmere will not become "obsolete" when Sandy Bridge launches. It will still be an incredibly capable architecture. Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 08 Pro upgrade include CPUs that no one else had access to yet?

Of course Nehalem/Westmere will still be incredibly powerful as far as CPU performance goes after Sandy Bridge is released, but it will no longer have the latest technology, and we're talking about groundbreaking things like USB3, SATAIII, LightPeak and PCI Express 3.0 (which both doubles the bandwidth over 2.0 and has many more lanes per CPU, giving you more PCI Express ports in the computer), where we'll eventually have devices and cards that require these ports. Wouldn't you rather have a computer that contains these ports? Anyone who doesn't at least look over the implications of buying now versus waiting is foolish. This is a completely new architecture right around the corner, with multiple new standards technologies, things that will just be in more and more demand as modern devices are released that will require USB3, SATAIII, LightPeak or PCI Express 3.0. It's your money and I'm not saying you shouldn't buy a Westmere Mac now. Re-read the last portion of the 1st post, where you see the different scenarios, and you'll see that I said it's perfectly fine to buy a Westmere now as long as you know what you're getting into. And yes, Apple had early access in 2009; check post #28 here, the last paragraph, for more on that.

You call ~50% increase just a slight one? I think two extra cores are pretty significant in terms of performance, especially when they run at some clocks as quad cores. Sandy Bridge may not bring eight core for Mac Pro yet because of price, who knows? Of course SB will bring other improvements e.g. AVX.

Sandy Bridge is still at least a year away and we never know when Apple will use them, just like they have done with Westmere. See my post from previous post for some other details about the release date

You misread the portion you quoted; I said "Sandy Bridge is a big deal and will bring loads of the latest technology; whereas Westmere is just a Nehalem that has been reduced in size (giving them slightly better performance and allowing them to fit more cores inside each processor).". The important word is in the portion you yourself quoted: "and". ;) I was talking about performance per-core only being "slightly better"; in other words, the die-shrink leads to slightly more effective electrical paths giving slightly better performance per-core AND the reduced size ALSO allows more cores per processor.

Now, when it comes to technology; as mentioned in my reply to chrmjenkins in this post (above the reply to you), Sandy Bridge brings very important new technology that will eventually be required by devices, and then your Nehalem/Westmere will officially be obsolete. That is why post #1 of this thread talks about the different scenarios we're all going to have to face, and just wants to inform people so that everyone can make the call on what they want to do. For a more elaborate reply on this technology-point of what Sandy Bridge brings, see the reply to chrmjenkins in this very post.

Lastly, regarding "we never know when Apple will use them", that is a non-issue, see the last paragraph of post #28 here.
 
You call ~50% increase just a slight one? I think two extra cores are pretty significant in terms of performance, especially when they run at some clocks as quad cores.
This is only correct under specific conditions though, and won't be the case all the time (depends on the software run).

There's a few multi-threaded applications that seem to be fairly common, that can't actually utilize all the cores. Photoshop certainly comes to mind. Granted, it's possible to attempt running 3x instances simultaneously, but from what I understand, it's not all that viable due to the input requirement from the user.

I'd also love to see Apple offer a barebones Mac Pro kit to bring the price down. Just give me the mobo, system discs, processors, and daughter board w/risers. Let me grab everything else.
I don't see this ever happening. The inexpensive parts they do put in, allows for high margins that ultimately benefit their bottom line.

Then there's the technical side, primarily around the problem of requiring them to have parts for validation testing (and there are other issues as well, such as attracting 3rd party suppliers for graphics cards, Intellectual Property,...).
 
Lastly, regarding "we never know when Apple will use them", that is a non-issue, see the last paragraph of post #28 here.

That has nothing to do with it :confused: You can't use Sandy Bridge in old Mac Pro when they come out and Hackintosh isn't same as real Mac Pro. If you are fine with Hackintosh then you shouldn't even complain about Mac Pro as it will never be as expandable as Hack is. Apple may screw us up like they are doing now.

Of course we all, including me even though you might think I'm the "party ruiner" now, hope that Apple still care about Mac Pro and gets early access for SB. Maybe Apple indeed think that Westmere is too small upgrade so they are waiting for SB to get early access and surprise us all (by that time Southern Islands from ATI should be out as well) with enormous update ;)

This is only correct under specific conditions though, and won't be the case all the time (depends on the software run).

There's a few multi-threaded applications that seem to be fairly common, that can't actually utilize all the cores. Photoshop certainly comes to mind. Granted, it's possible to attempt running 3x instances simultaneously, but from what I understand, it's not all that viable due to the input requirement from the user.

In terms of raw processing power, it's about 50% faster :p I know software is unfortunately lagging behind thus Sandy Bridge will be so significant (better clock fro clock, core for core performance).

Hopefully we'll see some actual benchmarks soon so we can start the real drooling :D
 
Server Sandy Bridge is Q3 2011 for -EP (and high-end desktop) and Q4 2011 for -EN. Earlier reports said Q1 or Q2.

There has also been some rumors about Becton going 32nm in early 2011 so that would fulfill some Xeon market before SB hits the high-end market.
Most recent reports say mid 2011.
 
Then there's the technical side, primarily around the problem of requiring them to have parts for validation testing (and there are other issues as well, such as attracting 3rd party suppliers for graphics cards, Intellectual Property,...).

True, and i know it's a pipe dream.

I don't know if HP and Dell still sell barebones kits, but there was a time that one could go to their sites, and get just the case, risers, boards; and pick up RAM, HDD, optical drives, GFX cards, etc. 3rd party.
 
Server Sandy Bridge is Q3 2011 for -EP (and high-end desktop) and Q4 2011 for -EN. Earlier reports said Q1 or Q2.

Has that been confirmed or is it just an educated guess made by PC Watch? :p

Most recent reports say mid 2011.

Couple months this or that way, doesn't matter, we won't see them in Mac Pros anyway (Becton is 3500$ chip) :cool:
 
Two points. Westmere will not become "obsolete" when Sandy Bridge launches. It will still be an incredibly capable architecture. Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the 08 Pro upgrade include CPUs that no one else had access to yet?

There were rumours Apple purchased all the 1600MHz parts, and they were the only one to use them for a while. There were 1333MHz parts available at the same time though. In 09 they launched a month before other's had Nehalem Xeons.
 
Maybe Apple indeed think that Westmere is too small upgrade so they are waiting for SB to get early access and surprise us all (by that time Southern Islands from ATI should be out as well) with enormous update ;)
This time around is like 2007, when they had an option for Quad core parts, creating the first run of Octad systems (all '06 DP systems were only Quads).

They only had to drop-in a new chip (didn't even need any changes in the firmware). They will have to update the firmware this time, but it's not that big a deal in terms of time or investments (unlike the Tick portion of the cycle, where the entire board changes due to the new architecture).

Due to that cost, Intel has created the Tick Tock cycle, as that huge chunk is amortized over 2 years (same boards = same chipset, socket,....).

By skipping the Gulftown parts, they're doing their MP segment a disservice, as some users (those that can in terms of finances, and may have been thinking about it for a little while on the whole, which more importantly IMO, includes software), switch over to a different OS and system vendor (i.e. Dell, HP,...).

In terms of raw processing power, it's about 50% faster :p I know software is unfortunately lagging behind thus Sandy Bridge will be so significant (better clock fro clock, core for core performance).
Only under ideal conditions for Symetric Multiprocessing capable applications (can actually use n cores, not limited to a fixed number, and not hampered by bottlenecks that may exist).

Real world performance won't be that much. More like what we saw between Harpertown and Nehalem's real world data (so 10% - 20% is more along what we'll see, and this is for SMP capable apps).

Single threaded applications would benefit, assuming the processors used are in fact what's expected/hoped for, as they've higher clocks for the same cost segments (P/N breakdown in terms of cost, and matching them with the initial cost for Nehalem parts). Same architecture @ a faster clock = better performance, single or multi-threaded applications. But single threaded could also gain a bit more due to Turbo Mode, assuming the other cores aren't loaded enough to prevent it from kicking in.

I don't know if HP and Dell still sell barebones kits, but there was a time that one could go to their sites, and get just the case, risers, boards; and pick up RAM, HDD, optical drives, GFX cards, etc. 3rd party.
I don't recall seeing that ability any longer, though it's worth a look. ;)

I'm more accustomed to "bare bones" requiring a graphics card (assuming it's separate as it would be in a workstation) and HDD, though they're low cost enough most will upgrade them to what's needed, and keep them as spares (without any real complaint, though this may be to do with the fact it's usually funded by a corporate budget, not out of their own pocket :p).

Has that been confirmed or is it just an educated guess made by PC Watch? :p
It's information that's out there, though the dates will change over time (usually getting later as time goes on). This type of information filtration is rather common, as Intel does release information to industry concentric sites.

I know there can be issues with Wiki, but generally speaking, it's gotten a lot better, and is a good source to find a good bit of information once it's available (articles get scrounged for info, and it's compiled/cobbled together at a single location).
 
Has that been confirmed or is it just an educated guess made by PC Watch? :p
Nothing's really confirmed at this point in time.

An old Intel roadmap from late last year (.pdf was pulled but I got it in time) put -EP at Q2 2011 and -EN at mid 2011. A number of CPUs were probably pushed back since then (Nehalem-EX was slated for turn of 2010 on that roadmap, it ended up launching late Q1 2010).

As for PC Watch, they seem fairly reliable, except that any stuff in question marks is most likely speculation.
 
It's information that's out there, though the dates will change over time (usually getting later as time goes on). This type of information filtration is rather common, as Intel does release information to industry concentric sites.

I know there can be issues with Wiki, but generally speaking, it's gotten a lot better, and is a good source to find a good bit of information once it's available (articles get scrounged for info, and it's compiled/cobbled together at a single location).

Nothing's really confirmed at this point in time.

An old Intel roadmap from late last year (.pdf was pulled but I got it in time) put -EP at Q2 2011 and -EN at mid 2011. A number of CPUs were probably pushed back since then (Nehalem-EX was slated for turn of 2010 on that roadmap, it ended up launching late Q1 2010).

As for PC Watch, they seem fairly reliable, except that any stuff in question marks is most likely speculation.

I only asked because iMacmatician usually has some very cool articles and roadmaps to show, so by asking his source, I get a hold of them :D

I know it's what we currently know and I also use Wikipedia as my main source (look at their sources for extra info) because it's so simple and usually has pretty decent stuff.

We'll know more when the time passes, there will still likely be a Westmere Mac Pro before Sandy Bridge so... How about speculating Ivy Bridge and Haswell, maybe even Rockwell Mac Pro now :p
 
If you are fine with Hackintosh then you shouldn't even complain about Mac Pro as it will never be as expandable as Hack is. Apple may screw us up on sandy bridge like they are doing now with westmere.

Of course we all, including me, even though you might think I'm the "party ruiner" now, hope that Apple still cares about Mac Pro and gets early access for SB. Maybe Apple indeed thinks that Westmere is too small of an upgrade so they are waiting for SB to get early access and surprise us all.

Naw. You're definitely not a party pooper by saying that you hope Apple gets Sandy Bridge before everyone else. ;) I am an Apple fan and would love for them to get early access, I'll explain my stance on all of this:

Official hardware is always more fun than Hackintoshes, since it all "just works" without having to fiddle. That beings said; today, Hackintoshes have come very far and are very easy to install and manage. I've been in the Hackintosh scene since 2004 with PearPC (yes, the extremely slow PowerPC emulator for PCs that could just about run Mac OS X at about 1 FPS). I've built numerous hacks throughout these six years, and it's so easy nowadays that it's ridiculous, and they run as stably as real Mac Pros now (just be sure to choose Intel hardware that is close to what's in real Macs and all the builtin Mac OS drivers will "just work"). However, despite the ease of current Hackintosh installations, I'll always prefer Apple hardware even with their price premiums because of the fact that you can focus on working instead of having to set anything up; BUT if Apple doesn't put out Sandy Bridge in a timely fashion, then nothing will stop me and numerous other people from buying the components and building Sandy Bridge machines ourselves. :D :apple:

That should hopefully explain my stance on what will happen as Sandy Bridge nears release. The action to be taken all depends on how much Apple likes their Pro customers next year, I'd prefer an official SB machine but there's nothing wrong with building one yourself if they slip again like they did this year! ;)

PS: Hackintosh people have already built dual-processor Westmere Xeon machines, thanks to EVGA's SR-2 motherboard released now (early June). Pretty nice eh! Those machines can have 2x X5680's and overclock to speeds around 4.5 GHz per core on air-cooling. That's another benefit Hackety-hacks bring; overclocking. Even people on a budget could get a cheap X5650 and overclock it to reach the same speeds as the twice as pricy X5680. ;)
 
Sandy Bridge Xeon parts are an eternity from this point. Mobile and desktop mainstream are coming first. If they're going to do anything this year it feels like it's going to be a silent introduction of Gulftown and a new high end GPU option.
 
We'll know more when the time passes, there will still likely be a Westmere Mac Pro before Sandy Bridge so...

Yes, looking at all the known facts, a Westmere Mac Pro is very likely considering the dates for SB's release and the statement issued by Steve Jobs today, saying that we shouldn't worry that they're ignoring the Mac Pros and to "just wait" for the coming update. His comment even makes it sound like it's not far off. Strange that he didn't mention a word about it at WWDC, as that would have spared a lot of frustration for their Pro customers. Apple really seems to underestimate the need for a new Mac Pro, and Steve Jobs had to issue that statement due to the overwhelming negativity directed at Apple right now, but at least his statement implies that new Mac Pros ARE on the way, and the brief and smug "Just wait" implies it could be something massive (click for full story behind his comment). Of course we could speculate all we want about Apple getting early exclusivity on Sandy Bridge and preparing a huge announcement, skipping Westmere, keeping quiet due to Sandy Bridge NDA, etc, but that would just be setting ourselves up for massive disappointment since that's not a very realistic scenario (it's Q3 2010, and Intel just now confirmed that they'll start shipping Consumer SB's in Q4 2010). The best we can hope for now is Westmere and I have a feeling we should "just wait", at least we've had a life-sign from the man himself and that's good enough for me. It was the silence combined with the waiting that was killing me and most other people. ;)

How about speculating Ivy Bridge and Haswell, maybe even Rockwell Mac Pro now :p

Why would we do that? Look, there's nothing to ridicule about this thread: Sandy Bridge is imminent, in the near future, and will bring no less than FOUR entirely new standards and evolutions (USB3, SATAIII, PCI Express 3.0 and LightPipe), which will make all of today's computers obsolete, as these new technologies and ports will be required by more and more modern devices as time goes on. That is why it's something that should be taken into account before spending 3 years of saved up cash on a fully loaded Westmere Mac, when you could buy a second-hand/refurb/make a hackintosh to tide you over until the real quantum leap with Sandy Bridge. Unless you are made of money, that will be a much wiser choice. I happen to be made of money and I still won't be buying any fully kitted out Westmere, it's just not a wise choice with such a quantum leap coming up quite soon. The best thing to do is just to get something to get by with while waiting; and the current machines are very powerful, so a refurb/second-hand/hackintosh will be the best choice for most people. Those that need the 4 extra cores (from 2x4 (8) to 2x6 (12)) are free to buy a Westmere now, if they really need it, but even most editors would get by excellently with the 2009 Mac Pro.
 
Yes, looking at all the known facts, a Westmere Mac Pro is very likely considering the dates for SB's release and the statement issued by Steve Jobs today, saying that we shouldn't worry that they're ignoring the Mac Pros and to "just wait" for the coming update. His comment even makes it sound like it's not far off.
What else was he going to say?


Question about lightpeak: will there be a way to get lightpeak to older mac pros when it becomes available?
 
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