You might want to wait for Sandy Bridge in Q2+ 2011 instead of buying Westmere

[c.hilding]

Icaras: No problem.

You've only reinforced my point.

Intel has no USB 3.0 offerings until 2012 on the hardware it provides. This leaves many other manufacturers open to provide their own USB 3.0 solutions.

Hey, there's no need for smugness like "you've only reinforced my point," especially not when you have completely forgotten why you were arguing with me in the first place. Let's take a stroll through memory lane, through the far-far back time of "about an hour ago":

Your initial argument and claim was that "Intel isn't making *any* USB 3 chips (controllers) until 2012", for example this post:

Intel's USB 3.0 implementation is still scheduled for 2012 on their controller chips.

I replied to that post of yours by mentioning that Intel indeed plans to make an official Intel all-in-one chip in 2011 in conjunction with the Sandy Bridge launch, that's free for OEMs to use for both USB 3 and SATA III, a fact which you immediately questioned with a quick reply of "Link please":

Eidorian: See reply #56. USB3+SATAIII will be provided by Intel for OEMs as an all-in-one chip that they can use on their Sandy Bridge motherboards.

Link please.

So I dutifully replied with a link:

"Intel plans to make a USB 3/SATA 6Gbps all-in-one controller for optional use by motherboard manufacturers on its products"
From: http://www.guru3d.com/news/intel-not-planning-usb-30-until-2012/

Upon which you replied smugly in a "told you so!" manner, completely forgetting what your original argument had been!

So, let's recap: Your argument was "Intel won't have any USB 3 chips before 2012", and when I showed you that Intel will indeed create a USB 3 / SATA III chip, your argument is now suddenly "Yes, Intel will have USB 3 but so will many other manufacturers, you are only reinforcing my point". I guess you're a bit tired since you completely forgot what your initial argument was and changed it to something that has nothing to do with the original one, and then gloats about how "right" you are. Interesting argument technique.

I fully expect some sort of silly retaliation from you to save face, but I'm going to bed, who cares about internet arguments?

 

[Eidorian]

Where does it say USB 3.0 from Intel in 2011 for Sandy Bridge?

 

[c.hilding]

I thought a big point of LightPeak was that it would be used on laptops and replace all the connections you currently need to hook up your display/audio/power/USB peripherals, presumably by keeping a little converter box at your desk that everything would connect to with its usual connector. Is this not expected in the near future at all? (I was really looking forward to that the next time I buy a laptop.)

The long-term goal is to have most devices running off LightPeak so that you can indeed connect everything with a single wire. I don't think we'll see too many devices in the short term that support light peak, simply because it costs money to implement LightPeak in a device, and computers already have all the connectors you need. Over time we'll see more and more LightPeak devices, but initially it'll primary be useful for things like networking between two computers via LightPeak, allowing 10 Gbps transfers, which is actually something most people won't even need, but would be useful for example if you were to connect two computers together and write some software so that they help each other compute large data sets.

Seriously, this thread is keeping me up with all the questions. Bed. Now.

Where does it say USB 3.0 from Intel in 2011 for Sandy Bridge?

See, I knew you'd change the argument a third time, you did not fail to disappoint. So it has morphed from "Intel won't make any USB 3 chips until 2012" to "haha, I told you so, Intel is going to be making USB 3 chips in 2011", to "show me where that chip (that I, just a moment ago, dismissed as not even existing) will sit on the reference boards for Sandy Bridge". This is pointless. But since you asked I'll give you one last dog bone: Read the article, or at least the quote, it mentions that Intel will provide the all-in-one USB 3 / SATA III chip in conjunction with the Sandy Bridge launch, so that OEMs will be able to easily implement USB 3 and SATA III on the new Sandy Bridge motherboards.

Good night all!

 

[Eidorian]

See, I knew you'd change the argument a third time, you did not fail to disappoint. So it has morphed from "Intel won't make any USB 3 chips until 2012" to "haha, I told you so, Intel is going to be making USB 3 chips in 2011", to "show me where that chip (that I, just a moment ago, dismissed as not even existing) will sit on the reference boards for Sandy Bridge". This is pointless. But since you asked I'll give you one last dog bone: Read the article, or at least the quote, it mentions that Intel will provide the all-in-one USB 3 / SATA III chip in conjunction with the Sandy Bridge launch, so that OEMs will be able to easily implement USB 3 and SATA III on the new Sandy Bridge motherboards.

Do you have another article?

Computex already showed Intel onboard SATA 6 Gbps on H67 and P67. There's still no final word on X68 (I guess.) but I expect it to include SATA 6 Gbps as well.

From your April Guru 3D article, Intel won't be adding USB 3.0 to its offerings. When it does so in 2012, it'll still be optional.

 

[deconstruct60]

F
Dual and Quad-Core low-end models come first, before 6-core and 8-core high-end models in Q2 2011. It still begs the question though: Why get Westmere now? Remember that Westmere is just a "tick" 32nm die-shrink of Nehalem with two more cores in (for a total of 6) in the highest-end CPUs. Why not wait for the "tock" (new architecture) in Q2 2011

1. Sandy Bridge is also 32nm, the exact same manufacturing process as Westmere. The "tock" (in terms of process) is when do not improve process and do optimization tweaks along with microarchitecture improvements. Sandy Bridge will be slightly better, but there is no general huge jump coming on Xeon.

So 8-cores will only mean the die gets bigger and the costs go up. Notice that the new Westmere versions all dropped at higher costs this spring? The "old" tech didn't go down in price. That is all the more likely to happen again next Summer/Fall2011.

What going to pick up is another memory controller. So if fill four, single DIMM slots all four DIMMs accessible in parallel. ( currently on the 7500/6500 series ). Also get a bump in L3 caches. Also get a bump in intercore communication. On the low end the core count will still be 4!!! With 4 , 6 , and 8 Apple is likely to even release the same 4 core , 6 core , 6 core line up as they likely will with Westmere. That would keep the 3 subversions of the SP and DP models to still have 6 total offerings. Don't really see them going to more than 6 ( maybe a Config-to-order with 8 core option, but it won't be a focus nor particularly affordable for the vast majority. )

The majority of folks here can only afford the low and middle versions so won't be that huge of a change. It is extremely misguided to set any sort of expectation that 8 core package set-ups will be common place in the Sandy Bridge era.


This whole argument of "old, ancient, decrepit" tech at 12 months is ridiculous; especially in the high reliability space. Intel's pricing says that isn't true (or else prices would have collapsed on the decrepit Xeons from last year. ). Intel knows nothing about the market for their chips... yeah right. Intel disagrees with that. So do lots of other customers who are seeking regularity as oppose as chasing specs.

Also since Intel had trouble ramping up on Core-i then Xeon they are more likely to space out the Xeon update. They also will be rolling out the Nehalem-EX later this year... so there is another Xeon roll out to go this year. That makes even more stuff in the queue before a Xeon 5000/3000 series refresh. Won't be surprising if it rolls out later next year so that release time more closely matches when they can ship it in volume.


Sandy Bridge is far more important for Intel's mobile line up because the current mobile Core-i packages have both a 32nm and 45nm die in them. If can collapse that to one 32nm die or at worse two 32nm dies that would be a huge bump (to IGP. also to memory access if can get to one die) . The desktop versions mostly get a L3 cache bump. Don't think that is going to be revolutionary changes in performance (since for the mainstream ones still have the memory controllers throttled at 2. ).

and get USB3, LightPeak, SATA3, PCI Express 3.0 (twice the bandwidth),

Mabye ( US3 PCI 3.0)although Apple is likely to do a substitution if something new appears ( remove 'old' or the 'new' so that board space is approximately the same.). Lightpeak is a separate break out chip and hasn't even come close to getting standardization consensus. You are not likely giong to get numerous new break out chips on the board. . Like the CPUs, the server support chispsets tend to lag behind the consumer ones.

native support for 1600 MHz RAM, 8 cores, and the higher performance of the new architecture?

What is bleeding edge 1600 ECC RAM going to do with pricing ? Better to wait and see what Apple does with Westmere offering before setting expectations that they are going to switch modes and go with the highest possible RAM option.


This is the classic if you wait 6 months there will always be something better on the horizon trap. Ivy Bridge is going to be faster/better than Sandy Bridge... so maybe should wait 2 years for a new box. Haswell is going to be better than Ivy bridge... so how about waiting 3 years. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Eventually fall into same bucket as the folk who post about how their old workstation is going to be desupported next week and it is the ultimate doom because don't have anything to move to from their 5-7 year old machine. Relative to the 5-7 year machine the current offering is not "old". What is ancient is what you're riding on now.

 

[Digital Skunk]

See, I knew you'd change the argument a third time, you did not fail to disappoint. So it has morphed from "Intel won't make any USB 3 chips until 2012" to "haha, I told you so, Intel is going to be making USB 3 chips in 2011", to "show me where that chip (that I, just a moment ago, dismissed as not even existing) will sit on the reference boards for Sandy Bridge". This is pointless. But since you asked I'll give you one last dog bone: Read the article, or at least the quote, it mentions that Intel will provide the all-in-one USB 3 / SATA III chip in conjunction with the Sandy Bridge launch, so that OEMs will be able to easily implement USB 3 and SATA III on the new Sandy Bridge motherboards.

Good night all!

I read all of the threads and Eidorian is right, and your articles only support what he's said.

I don't know what all the fanfare is for.

 

[iMacmatician]

The majority of folks here can only afford the low and middle versions so won't be that huge of a change. It is extremely misguided to set any sort of expectation that 8 core package set-ups will be common place in the Sandy Bridge era.

I do not expect 8-core Sandy Bridge to be more widespread than 6-core is with Westmere (likely less).

 

[Eidorian]

I do not expect 8-core Sandy Bridge to be more widespread than 6-core is with Westmere (likely less).

I'm expecting to see 6 cores make it into the $284 price point under Sandy Bridge.

The Core i7 970 ($561) doesn't appear to have a counterpart on the Xeon side that I know of. For a single socket system you're still looking at ~$1,000 3.33 GHz Gulftown 6-core Xeon.

8-cores is going to be the premium like 6-cores is on Xeon. As mentioned before the die size is only going to make matters worse when it comes to pricing. It's all still 32nm. Not that the entities purchasing an 8-core processor will care all that much.

On the consumer side the next Extreme processor is going to once again be at ~$1,000 like its many predecessors. It'll probably be 8 cores too.

 

[rhett7660]

If they would have released Mac Pros, it would have been during the keynote or on the Tuesday the day after, that's how they usually do it.

PS: The new release of Xcode is simply that, a new version of Xcode, with the Interface Builder integrated into the workflow, that's it, there's no hidden meaning.

Um. wasn't the 08 MP released right before Mac world 08 with very little if any mention at Mac World?

 

[Umbongo]

Um. wasn't the 08 MP released right before Mac world 08 with very little if any mention at Mac World?

Yup. Only the 06 model was released at a keynote. 07 was a week before NAB and 09 was press release only.

 

[DoFoT9]

nice read

so ~mid/late 2011 for the 8 core CPUs, thats a nice advancement - roughly a year away. great, ill start saving for my MP now.

the main question (i think) is what sort of improvement % wise are we talking? if it is just going to be the usual 20%-30% then i wont be that excited. i guess its too early to speculate

 

[Hellhammer]

I'm expecting to see 6 cores make it into the $284 price point under Sandy Bridge.

That would be logical and could fight against AMD's hexa-cores (in price)

The Core i7 970 ($561) doesn't appear to have a counterpart on the Xeon side that I know of. For a single socket system you're still looking at ~$1,000 3.33 GHz Gulftown 6-core Xeon.

It isn't even out yet, right? I'm sure Intel will deliver at least deliver UP version (same chip with ECC support, Xeon W3xxx) of it for same price, just like they did with Core i7 X980 (Xeon W3680). No need for DP version really as the price difference between X5670 and X5680 is only 220$ plus Intel would be running out of numbers (X5675?) Not really even need for it

On the consumer side the next Extreme processor is going to once again be at ~$1,000 like its many predecessors. It'll probably be 8 cores too.

"Consumer" But yeah, at least what is currently known, there will be 8-core "consumer" chip, i.e. the successor of i7 X980, likely same chip that is used in UP Xeons

 

[Maurier]

I honestly don't understand why people are arguing over this.
I think a lot of people are trying to justify why they bought a 2009 Mac pro
I just bought one 2 days ago and for my needs ( video editing ,watching movies and playing wow from time to time) i'm more then happy and will not need to upgrade until late 2011 or 2012.
Who cares? If you really need those 6/12 cores then buy one at the end of the month if not buy a 2009 now and be done with it.
This is getting silly , and even a little nerdy

Either 90% of the people here are all high end professional doing amazing things with their mac's and need the latest and greatest or just a lot of tech geeks.
Seriously look what Steve Job has done to you guys lol

I just finished watching WWDC 2010 and i felt really nerdy after haha , all those geeks applouding at a phone WTF?
What's this world coming to? Some people need a reality check and this is coming from a guy who plays rpg's 5 hours a day.

 

[surferfromuk]

I honestly don't understand why people are arguing over this.
I think a lot of people are trying to justify why they bought a 2009 Mac pro
I just bought one 2 days ago and for my needs ( video editing ,watching movies and playing wow from time to time) i'm more then happy and will not need to upgrade until late 2011 or 2012.
Who cares? If you really need those 6/12 cores then buy one at the end of the month if not buy a 2009 now and be done with it.
This is getting silly , and even a little nerdy

Either 90% of the people here are all high end professional doing amazing things with their mac's and need the latest and greatest or just a lot of tech geeks.
Seriously look what Steve Job has done to you guys lol

I just finished watching WWDC 2010 and i felt really nerdy after haha , all those geeks applouding at a phone WTF?
What's this world coming to? Some people need a reality check and this is coming from a guy who plays rpg's 5 hours a day.

Interesting. I completely agree! However, I doubt its high end professionals as they just get on with buying for paying jobs, and if they need extreme power they have the money to buy more Mac Pros ( regardless of cost) or put jobs out onto to a cheap PC render farm (Hackintosh unlikely!).

There is, however, definitely some kind of effect here (team effort I'd say!) that is in some ways attempting to erode the Mac Pro's professional industry userbase by prematurely creating a notion of an second rate and/or overdue product where in reality it's an amazing piece of kit and the update is still not technically due till September. Sure it's expensive - top end Apple kit is - always has been, but equally never been cheaper!

Arguably, some of these efforts could even (legally?) be construed as a form of deliberate industrial and commercial sabotage! It's certainly gone beyond rumor and way past idle speculation - some people are almost aggressively vitriolic against potential buyers.

In fact I find this current thread utterly laughable - the OP is actually now proposing people avoid even the NEXT as yet unreleased Mac Pro in favor of some entirely mythic future 2012 Mac Pro...Quite bizarre

 

[Eidorian]

It isn't even out yet, right? I'm sure Intel will deliver at least deliver UP version (same chip with ECC support, Xeon W3xxx) of it for same price, just like they did with Core i7 X980 (Xeon W3680). No need for DP version really as the price difference between X5670 and X5680 is only 220$ plus Intel would be running out of numbers (X5675?) Not really even need for it

It's scheduled for later this year. The Core i7 990X appears to be possible as well. It will be interesting to see it with a higher BCLK than the current 133 MHz.

"Consumer" But yeah, at least what is currently known, there will be 8-core "consumer" chip, i.e. the successor of i7 X980, likely same chip that is used in UP Xeons

"Enthusiast" would have been a better choice. It's still in the single socket market without ECC.

 

[johnnymg]

The reason for this years focus on iOS should be obvious.

Apple has three lines of business that are all approx. $10B business units:
- Mac
- iPod
- iPhone

Their Mac market is growing at a tremendous rate, almost all by itself (see my post on why iDevices are good for the Mac).

The iPod market is somewhat stagnant, and to some extent being cannibalized by Apple's own more sophisticated iOS devices. It's a market in decline.

The iPhone market is under assault by Google and it's critical that Apple focus on competing strongly here.

Finally, Apple is trying to develop a new line of business around tablets that they hope will be a fourth $10B business, and it too is already in the sights of many competitors. If they want to achieve $10B like revenues in this area, it's going to require a massive effort.

To have done anything other than focus this years WWDC on catering to iOS developers would have been a bad decision for their two business units which are most vulnerable.

You guys need to think with your Apple business hat on. Presumably, all of the new customers Apple is bringing on board, is great news for the pros who frequent this forum... it means more customers to consume whatever you are developing.

EXCELLENT comments!

In a perfect world (1) your comments would be a sticky and (2) macrumors would limit new members to only read status for a month.

cheers
JohnG

 

[iMacmatician]

Presumably, all of the new customers Apple is bringing on board, is great news for the pros who frequent this forum... it means more customers to consume whatever you are developing.

Never thought of it that way…very good point.

 

[VirtualRain]

EXCELLENT comments!

In a perfect world (1) your comments would be a sticky and (2) macrumors would limit new members to only read status for a month.

cheers
JohnG

LOL... thanks. We can dare to dream!

 

[xgman]

Engineering Sample in case anyone is interested:

http://forum.coolaler.com/showthread.php?t=240578

 

[jjahshik32]

Its a shame that apple is behind the desktop compared to PCs. I bet most people would just pick up a mac mini with an nvidia 320m to hold them over until the new mac pro is released.. but then again the mac mini is taking forever to update as well!

 

[bearcatrp]

After reading these posts, which bring good information, and steve jobs email, something tells me that just maybe steve has something up his sleeve to blow us away. He still has a good relation with intel. Why do an upgrade when sandy bridge is so close to being released. Apple has been able to produce products before anyone else was able to get there hands on it. So it could be feasible for apple to get sandy bridge early and hold off just a little longer to come out with a new Mac pro with sandy bridge. I just hate to see what the cost will be though. My 2008 Mac pro is doing just fine. I can wait for sandy bridge. My guess is we will see it in the fall.

 

[Icaras]

I can wait for sandy bridge. My guess is we will see it in the fall.

You're joking, right?

 

[the editor]

wow...people are talking about when apple is going to probably release MacPro's with sandy bridge processors....2010 is almost over and Apple is stil claiming the 2009 "pro" machine to be the "newest and latest technology"...in the mean time, people are still waiting for apple to release an update that is long overdue and here we are talking about waiting for a release in Q2 of 2011...this is getting a bit...silly

 

[Umbongo]

wow...people are talking about when apple is going to probably release MacPro's with sandy bridge processors....2010 is almost over and Apple is stil claiming the 2009 "pro" machine to be the "newest and latest technology"...in the mean time, people are still waiting for apple to release an update that is long overdue and here we are talking about waiting for a release in Q2 of 2011...this is getting a bit...silly

Almost over? We aren't even half way through the year.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Its a shame that apple is behind the desktop compared to PCs. I bet most people would just pick up a mac mini with an nvidia 320m to hold them over until the new mac pro is released.. but then again the mac mini is taking forever to update as well!

Agreed, and I am tempted to pull the trigger on the base model one just so I can have an extra machine to work on while I render, rip, encode and upload.

I don't even mind that they haven't been updated yet, the big problem for me is that one would cost the same price as a used 1,1 Mac Pro.

wow...people are talking about when apple is going to probably release MacPro's with sandy bridge processors....2010 is almost over and Apple is stil claiming the 2009 "pro" machine to be the "newest and latest technology"...in the mean time, people are still waiting for apple to release an update that is long overdue and here we are talking about waiting for a release in Q2 of 2011...this is getting a bit...silly

What's silly is that this thread is all about the OP suggesting that Apple may just wait for SB, and skip Westmere altogether, which is just plain absurd.