It does not seem as though Apple is the only company dealing with temperature in its 6-core laptops right now - https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/razer-blade-15,5674.html
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YouTuber Claims 15-Inch MacBook Pro With Upgraded Core i9 Chip is Severely Throttled Due to Thermal Issues
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Wow, Apple has engineers? Well we're safe then, because engineers never make mistakes. No company in the history of the world that has engineers has ever put out a bad product or made a bad decision in any way (like not limiting the processor TDP and only controlling off of package temp for example).
The big mistake was getting rid of the 17" Macbook Pro. Thin and light but no bigger than 15".
I don't care what she said, 15" is too small.
Affordable? The only reason people by these machines is because Apple has better build quality vs their competitors and slightly better consumer customer support. I used to have an XPS and their customer service I would vouch is on par with Apple's as I don't even need to leave my home to get a motherboard replaced and have the option to keep my drive on the premises.
Its a bit sad that Apple still gets the sales for this laptop even though the MacBook Line has been on the downswing under Cook. But it is what it is.
As for improving thermals, they need to crank the fans to an audible noise. It will slightly tarnish the glorious silent, and powerful image Apple wants to paint itself as, but they don't really have much of a choice.
If they want to do not change a fan temperature thresholds they can limit TDP and eventually disable Turbo Boost. If they cannot deliver stable performance using base frequency (forget about TurboBoost frequencies around 4.8GHz) then I am sure that there will be another lawsuit and Apple lawyers will be in trouble to defend it using argument that performance strictly depends on ambient temperature and thermal design capability to dissipate heat. Court experts may want to see a thermal design data or make independent expertise and I am sure that this design is not able to handle more than 28-30W or even less having safe temperature limit under constant load or even less in hot regions. If the bottom and top case temps will be above safe limit so skin might be injured this might be also used as strong argument before court because aluminium enclosure is used as part of heatsink (even if Apple put temp sensors to control it). In result Apple may need to change advertisements on Apple site but I am sure that they selected each word and sentence carefully. So possibly they will claim that parameters may vary according to region and conditions (works ok for a short peaks). So 4.8GHz can be fullfilled as miliseconds peaks in Greenland or Siberia like P.M.P.O. power parameter labelled on speakers in cheap chinese audio crap from 80's and 90's.
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Apple will not need to change advertisements. They only state the CPU - with INTEL's description of what that chip is. That is it, they don't say the computer operates at that speed. You also have 2 weeks to test it out and return - it is not as if Apple is forcing you to buy it, or forcing you to keep it. It would be different if things changed significantly for the detriment after those 2 weeks.
If the CPU cannot sustain a 2.9GHz clock rate with the computer limiting the CPU to 45TDP then Intel specifications should change as it is not able to meet that base clock at the TDP rating. In the end, the computer is a sum of its parts so if you are using the GPU maxed out at 65 Watts TDP, then it will not be able to run the CPU at the base rate - it will be lower. Luckily almost all applications tend to be GPU intensive or CPU intensive... but not both at the same time. It seems like Adobe Premiere (unoptimized) may be one application that does. Of course, that does not mean that the same balance will happen on Windows since it would depend on whether you are using an nVidia GPU with CUDA.. and if that is the case the balance may not be the same. If Premier was optimized for the Apple platform it would be different.
If you look at the Helios 500 (which is the i9 done right), the computer is 4kg, but if you look at the power block (which will be at least half a kg on its own - would not surprise me if it is 1kg and more than 150 watts). Of course the compromise is that the computer is heavy, the computer has a vastly undersized battery for the components (if it had a properly sized battery ... it would be significantly heavier... and you would not be ever able to bring it on a plane with you -- you would have to ship it ground and wait for it when you landed for 30 days or so).
In summary, it is not defective, just a different balance in compromises than the Helios... and it has the components stated... there is no promise on performance... and you have 2 weeks to test it yourself... so the lawsuit would be frivolous.
[doublepost=1532252458][/doublepost]I'm just wondering if any other MacBook laptops act the same?
I tried to download the intel app to check CPU speed but no longer available fro Mac.
All these years we probably having being burnt to some degree in believing these clock speeds
Funny thing is when I compare my MacBook Air 2014 to new MacBook Pro its only 30% faster in single apps
Ouch, my earlier post did sound unnecessarily rude - I'm sorry. Although, I completely disagree about my opinion being wrong - please read up on this. Thanks.
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bkkcanuck8: I have never use a word "defective". I agree that Apple with so thin needed to find balance elsewhere but my personal feeling is that this thin design should be able to keep CPU base frequency stable without affecting performance for typical room temperatures. Please also note that Apple chose a decisions to make so thin enclosure and not customers. They can increase height and upgrade heatsink like Razor or Dell but they did not do it because product image is more important than good product and customers. I read arguments that Intel removed XTU tool for OSX because it was not compatible with 8tg gen. If this will be truth there is no need to remove a tool but just add a note that tool is compatible ONLY with 7th gen Intel CPU and why do not allow owners of Macbook 2016 with 7th gen to change TDP? Just because tool is incompatible with 2018 models? Strange and Apple ruins year by year their image in era of worldwide information. They go in lie statements like in case of keyboard where service guide tells totally different story than first official Apple statements. RMA does not solve a problem when people wait for replacement long time and now they can buy a 2018 models with coil whine and improved keyboard or buy a 2017 model with faulty keyboard. As a customer I do not expect that Apple say sorry or it is not about money but there is no clear communication between Apple and customers. Apple just do not listen or listen only feedback that fits to philosophy of management. Even using AppleCare or contacting Apple directly there is no any partner discussion. The service procedure is more important than technical facts, overall engineering knowledge and just a human. Like in Kafkasque world and I am so negatively surprised because I thought that under steer of Tim Cook company will be more people oriented than when RIP Steve Jobs shown his ego during antennagate in iPhone 4 suggesting that people holding phones in hand incorrectly. Why there is no any communication with Schiller - just simple words on Twitter: "Thanks. We are going to check it in our lab. Stay in touch!" ??! Frank Azor from Dell is more communicative than all Apple management together. If they ignore role of communication with young people they will end like ancient Rome but much sooner and Xiaomi will be happy to replacing Apple.
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Legitimate engineering concerns followed by voicing evidenced concerns/commentary is treated like an fake infection [fake news] by the utopians who then gather their YouTube fan club to rescue the bad deal and restore the false vision of utopia.
Obviously there is a cooling throttling balance issue.
Obviously there is a design versus function issue.
Obviously there is understanding this refresh is to rescue the keyboard problem and look like they are supporting the Mac/pros.
There are fair comments on both sides of this but reverting to fanboy club mode does nothing. People have a right to take a company to task.
My point is every time a reaction results int he YouTube and community reacting to criticism like an infection you continue to encoruage the company to make questionable decisions.
Plenty of smart people here highlighting this cooling issue and CPU arch’s etc whixh you should take into consideration....
Also I will note some of the nonsense of the 2017 HQ CPU. It runs fine without throttling so it’s not that far behind. Maybe 10%.
Obviously there is a cooling throttling balance issue.
Obviously there is a design versus function issue.
Obviously there is understanding this refresh is to rescue the keyboard problem and look like they are supporting the Mac/pros.
There are fair comments on both sides of this but reverting to fanboy club mode does nothing. People have a right to take a company to task.
My point is every time a reaction results int he YouTube and community reacting to criticism like an infection you continue to encoruage the company to make questionable decisions.
Plenty of smart people here highlighting this cooling issue and CPU arch’s etc whixh you should take into consideration....
Also I will note some of the nonsense of the 2017 HQ CPU. It runs fine without throttling so it’s not that far behind. Maybe 10%.
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Yes, they DO have a choice (a lot of choices). Larger chassis, alternative cooling methods, etc. While most believe that Apple pursues thinness as some design ethos (it does to some degree), I believe that it is primarily used as "cover" for making components non-removable/upgradable, and removing ports and features.
So while they have a lot of choices to "improve" things from a customer's perspective, they have absolutely no reason to. Given all of the problems with Macbook Pros over just the past 3 years, people flocked to buy this latest one. Why should Apple expend additional resources to improve things when customers will buy their products without those improvements. THAT is the benefit of convincing people they are captive to Apple. Apple worked hard to create that, now it is time to cash in on it.
Even those popular Youtubers who posted videos of their bad experiences with Apple products and services, continue to buy Apple products. They are no different than the majority of Apple customers. This is why I don't understand why Apple fans criticize those youtubers.
Apple: quick fix the keyboard issue look added bonus Look like we are supporting pros too.
Intel: quick rush out 6core mobile chips because AMD is on the rise.
Cooling/laws of physics: wow bad boys, slow down you need to think about this, if not, I punish you. THROTTLE.
Simples.
Like all problems it is a sequence of small missteps, often oblivious to the other, that leads to big problem.
Intel: quick rush out 6core mobile chips because AMD is on the rise.
Cooling/laws of physics: wow bad boys, slow down you need to think about this, if not, I punish you. THROTTLE.
Simples.
Like all problems it is a sequence of small missteps, often oblivious to the other, that leads to big problem.
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This is very similar to the phone battery situation. The hardware now KNOWS to diminish its capabilities based on environmental conditions (like poor battery performance or too much heat.). When does this diminished performance constitute a genuine problem or "failure to deliver" on a product. If your computer throttles for battery life or heat it is generally a good thing but if the computer cannot deliver spec speeds under "normal" conditions then there is a problem. As far as a MacBook Pro, running photoshop for 8 hours a day is potentially a "normal" condition for a photographer. The device should be able to deliver advertised clock indefinitely if demanded, and that is with full use of the Radeon 560X as well. (Preferable without the computer sounding like jet engine)
The engineers are not the problem. It's the people who are directing the engineers to do stupid things that are the issue.
[doublepost=1532272723][/doublepost]By the way, this appeal to engineering authority is silly. It doesn't matter who has what title, who is or isn't an engineer, or anything else, because we can all see that a notebook computer unable to run at base clock speed for sustained periods of time is a huge problem.
Apple didn't blow it - they gave users 32GB RAM - MASSIVE WIN! Apple gave people the i9, which is faster than the i7 in all tests performed between the two systems where pro apps are concerned - MASSIVE WIN! Apple fixed the keyboard issues, we think - MASSIVE WIN!
The bolded is significantly untrue. The i9 improves speeds by 15%. If I need a faster workflow, I'm going to go with the fastest on offer, which is the i9.
I'm sure it fits your needs and wishes just fine. There's people using Hasselblad files with these MacBook Pros and 8K Red Raw footage ... I'm fairly sure your photography will be fine - I'm fairly certain the i9 fits your needs, and if it doesn't, edit at home on a desktop and get the iMac Pro - that really is a beast - love mine.
The i9 is currently faster despite keeping fan speeds lower: that in itself shows the power under the hood. People love to moan. My 17" MacBook Pro sent fans whirling when I threw three streams of Proxy 4K at it, but it doesn't mean that I came to MacRumors for a cry about it... some people do stupid tests and the one video that's caused all of this fuss (Dave's) was one such test, as outlined in Jonathan's video.
Thank you. I appreciate that and won’t labor it. I’ve done similar things way too many times myself. Glass houses and stones and all `
So, with that out of the way lets look at what was actually said, and how things could have been clearer. I believe we’re basically talking about different scenarios.
Here’s the difference between what I said and what you responded to. I didn’t say the machine were consistently running at that temperature. I didn’t even say they often do. I don’t remember the last time the fans on the 15” got above a lazy yawn, and it spends the majority of its life running between 1 and 3 VMs. I firmly believe that if your laptop is running at full tilt and generating those kind of temps for anything like the kind of time you could quantify as “consistently” then you’ve selected the wrong tool.
As for “Also, throttling is not considered normal, as it prevents the CPU from operating at frequencies (e.g. turbo), which it otherwise would have been able to operate at, had the cooling system allowed it”. I don’t think that’s a realistic or achievable characterization for these processors in these form factors. Even notebookcheck mentions that Dell et al. allow around 28 seconds of Turbo before limiting TDP. In a 10lb, 4 inch gaming monster I wouldn’t be surprised if you could turbo all day but that isn’t really applicable to MBPs (or XPS’ or other similar laptops).
Tl;dr version. I don’t believe we were talking about quite the same scenario.
My i9 / 32GB MacBook Pro is due to arrive on the 31st July.
I appreciate high fan speeds will help cool and provide better performance, but after spending so much on a system Im not after a band aid - like most others I want the performance I am paying a premium for. I'm also concerning how heat build up will affect the system over a longer period of time.
Although I will keep the i9 for a while and run some tests according to my own usage, as well as seeing if Apple will release any firmware update soon, I will more likely return the system and continue to wait for an updated iMAC....
I appreciate high fan speeds will help cool and provide better performance, but after spending so much on a system Im not after a band aid - like most others I want the performance I am paying a premium for. I'm also concerning how heat build up will affect the system over a longer period of time.
Although I will keep the i9 for a while and run some tests according to my own usage, as well as seeing if Apple will release any firmware update soon, I will more likely return the system and continue to wait for an updated iMAC....
Not just affordable—cheap. Even the most expensive config, with a 3 year replacement schedule, is barely over $100/month considering the tax deductibility. That’s maybe an hour of a pro’s billing rate.
These machines, and their PC equivalents, aren’t designed for the average home user. They’re mostly for individuals and businesses that use them in a professional capacity. For the target market, they’re not expensive.
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If you have a mix of work with some work that drives the CPU hard... the long-term heat will not be a problem (IMHO). If however you are running your laptop hard day in and day out like I have done with my old Mac Pro (at one point close to 7/24 for 6 months at maximum CPU utilization)... you should get a desktop/workstation.