ZAGG InvisibleSHIELD Heat Issue

[MBHockey]

You need to go back and read and comprehend the original post that I quoted and responded to. The OP's original statement: "for which no air can enter the aluminum casing of the MacBook to reach." is what I was responding to. No air can penetrate the casing, with or without a cover. That is a fact, and I know exactly what I'm talking about. If you care to prove that air can penetrate the aluminum casing or the ZAGG shield, I'd love to see it!

I never said that aluminum doesn't dissipate heat. Please quote where I did.

The fact remains that Apple portables do not rely on the casing being uncovered to maintain temperatures within a safe operating range. The fans and vents alone can keep temps at a safe level. If covering the casing caused overheating or was a threat to safe operation, Apple would state that fact and would void their warranty coverage if a skin was applied.

I aced all my science classes, thanks. I also did well in reading comprehension!

It is irrelevant what you were responding to (but yes, that person seems to think that heat is only dissipated via the case, which is not true). If you make a ridiculous statement, that's on you. And now you've made the same ridiculous statement twice -- bolded above.

Just because air cannot penetrate an object doesn't mean that energy (in this case heat energy) cannot. This is a combination of convective and conductive heat transfer. How else would you explain that a room with a lot of windows gets cold easily in the winter even though all the windows are closed?

Since air can't penetrate the aluminum casing, anyway, adding another layer shouldn't make any difference.

Here you are implying that heat is only transferred if hot air within the computer gets physically displaced to the outside of the computer, i.e. heat transfer via mass transfer. This is not true. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the physical world around you.

Please, read up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer

 

[TheRealDamager]

Here's the problem - you have no idea whether the aluminum case transports 75% of the heat of the internal components or .0001%. Since you can't prove what part the casing plays in dissipating heat, it is useless for you to state that "aluminum conducts heat". Duh. That doesn't mean skinning the unit will cause any issues.

The bottom line is there is GGJ and me (years of experience - mostly from GGJ) and Apple saying it's likely very much OK, and you two saying it's not.

People can make their own decisions.

 

[GGJstudios]

You've done it in quite literally, every one of your posts in this thread. If you can't see it, thats your problem.

And still you can't quote a nonsense statement I made. C'mon! Surely you can quote ONE nonsense statement I've made in this thread. C'mon! Just one!

So the air needs to penetrate the aluminum casing eh?

Quote where I ever said that air needs to penetrate the aluminum casing. Reading comprehension seems to be escaping you.

.... that person seems to think that heat is only dissipated via the case, which is not true).

That person is clearly not me.

And now you've made the same ridiculous statement twice -- bolded above.

So provide proof that air penetrates the aluminum casing, with or without a cover.

Just because air cannot penetrate an object doesn't mean that energy (in this case heat energy) cannot.

I never claimed that energy can't penetrate. I even stated the opposite, that it can and does. Again, you're misreading my statements, which have all been accurate.

Here you are implying that heat is only transferred if hot air within the computer gets physically displaced to the outside of the computer, i.e. heat transfer via mass transfer.

No, I'm not stating or implying that at all. Please read, re-read, and try hard to comprehend my simple, clear and accurate statements, without trying to impose your flawed misinterpretation on them.

 

[2IS]

Here's the problem - you have no idea whether the aluminum case transports 75% of the heat of the internal components or .0001%. Since you can't prove what part the casing plays in dissipating heat, it is useless for you to state that "aluminum conducts heat". Duh. That doesn't mean skinning the unit will cause any issues.

The bottom line is there is GGJ and me (years of experience - mostly from GGJ) and Apple saying it's likely very much OK, and you two saying it's not.

People can make their own decisions.

1) Apple hasn't said that, you're making stuff up again. If want people to make their own decisions, it's best not to distort the facts.

2) GGJ is under the impression that no cooling takes place unless air can penetrate an object. Whatever experience he has is not very good, you're better off going at this alone than using him as an agreeing source.

 

[GGJstudios]

GGJ is under the impression that no cooling takes place unless air can penetrate an object.

That is completely false, as pointed out in my statements that you apparently haven't carefully read or understood. Really, if you're going to attempt to sound like an expert, at least work on your reading and comprehension skills, as what has been stated here is easily quotable (except by you, since you still haven't quoted any nonsense you claim I posted).

 

[2IS]

That is completely false, as pointed out in my statements that you apparently haven't carefully read or understood.

I've read all your posts and they're contradictory at best and completely wrong at worst. It's like taking a test, getting the answer on the scantron wrong, getting a chance to correct it and marking every single bubble... One of them must be right...

 

[GGJstudios]

I've read all your posts and they're contradictory at best and completely wrong at worst.

OK, since neither you nor MBHockey are willing to quote my posts, I'll quote them myself. Maybe you'll get it this time:

Heat radiates in all directions,

True

and since aluminum conducts heat efficiently,

True

you feel the heat more on the skin than you would with other laptop body materials.

True

But it is not used to distribute heat.

True

Some heat is dissipated through the body,

True

but that is incidental. The primary cooling conduit is the vents.

True

Since air can't penetrate the aluminum casing,

True

adding another layer shouldn't make any difference.

True (in case you misunderstand, that statement refers to the fact that adding another layer won't make any difference in the fact that air can't penetrate the casing.)

At no point did I claim that energy can't be transferred through the casing, or that air needs to penetrate aluminum for cooling to happen, or that adding a skin won't have any effect on temperatures.

Did you get it that time? Care to challenge any of those completely accurate statements? Care to show how any of them are contradictory?

 

[2IS]

I see you also have secret info from the engineers but can't prove it. How do you know its incidental and not an intended design? Or are you making stuff up also? Yeah... Thats what I thought too.

You know what else is funny, MBHockey and I are quoting (despite your claim to the contrary) either entire posts or at least whole sentences of yours. You're needing to take bits and pieces of your own posts (out of context) in an attempt to look like you have a clue. It's not working. We have your whole posts, in context as reference.

 

[MBHockey]

And still you can't quote a nonsense statement I made. C'mon! Surely you can quote ONE nonsense statement I've made in this thread. C'mon! Just one!

Quote where I ever said that air needs to penetrate the aluminum casing. Reading comprehension seems to be escaping you.

That person is clearly not me.

So provide proof that air penetrates the aluminum casing, with or without a cover.

I never claimed that energy can't penetrate. I even stated the opposite, that it can and does. Again, you're misreading my statements, which have all been accurate.

I never said or implied "that person" was you.

So, what is your position? That wrapping the MBA in plastic will reduce heat dissipation but not enough to cause the fans to run faster?

 

[GGJstudios]

I see you also have secret info from the engineers but can't prove it. How do you know its incidental and not an intended design? Or are you making stuff up also?

I know because if Apple depended on dissipation to maintain safe temperatures, they wouldn't give instructions on running in clamshell mode, which clearly inhibits dissipation. It doesn't, however, block the primary cooling through the vents.

You know what else is funny, MBHockey and I are quoting (despite your claim to the contrary) either entire posts or at least whole sentences of yours. You're needing to take bits and pieces of your own posts (out of context) in an attempt to look like you have a clue. It's not working. We have your whole posts, in context as reference.

I didn't leave anything out. What I said is true, both when taken section-by-section and as a whole. You simply misread my posts. They are factual. Quote any section of what I've said that proves otherwise.

So, what is your position? That wrapping the MBA in plastic will reduce heat dissipation but not enough to cause the fans to run faster?

So you've finally stopped stating my position for me, using your own words instead of mine, and are ready to hear what I'm actually saying?

 

[MBHockey]

I know because if Apple depended on dissipation to maintain safe temperatures, they wouldn't give instructions on running in clamshell mode, which clearly inhibits dissipation. It doesn't, however, block the primary cooling through the vents.

I didn't leave anything out. What I said is true, both when taken section-by-section and as a whole. You simply misread my posts. They are factual. Quote any section of what I've said that proves otherwise.

So you've finally stopped stating my position for me, using your own words instead of mine, and are ready to hear what I'm actually saying?

I would simply like you to articulate in one sentence what your position is since you have failed to do so thus far. Your statements are easily interpreted as contradictions since you have failed to set boundaries on their meaning.

 

[GGJstudios]

I would simply like you to articulate in one sentence what your position is since you have failed to do so thus far. Your statements are easily interpreted as contradictions since you have failed to set boundaries on their meaning.

There is nothing contradictory about my statements. If you read such, you misread or misunderstood them.

Here are the facts:

• Apple portables are cooled primarily via fans and vents, which are located near the hinge, at the rear of the notebook.
• While heat dissipates in all directions and aluminum efficiently conducts such heat, that dissipation is not the primary source of cooling for Apple portables. That is why operating in clamshell mode is safe and recommended by Apple, even though it partially inhibits dissipation.
• Covering the aluminum body with a skin may cause internal temperatures to rise, but not to a degree that is dangerous or harmful. Fans may spin faster to maintain safe temperatures, but your Mac will not overheat, unless it's defective.
• The CPU and GPU are the two primary "furnaces" in any Mac. The Intel processors used in Macs are designed to automatically shut down to prevent damage if they truly overheat. CPU Tjmax = 105C, GPU Tjmax = 100C on i3, i5, i7 processors. (Source: Intel)

 

[2IS]

Clamshell mode does not block the entire base which is the largest aluminum surface area from which heat can dissipate from. What you think you know, you don't. Try again.

BTW no one said it was going to harm anything, just that in certain load bearing situations the temp can get high enough to throttle.

 

[GGJstudios]

Clamshell mode does not block the entire base which is the largest aluminum surface area from which heat can dissipate from. What you think you know, you don't. Try again.

Since you're now grasping at straws, trying to overcome the fact that you couldn't prove any of my statements false, I'll give you a "science project" to try to prove me wrong.

Test case #1: Completely cover all surfaces of your chosen Mac notebook, but leave the vents and fans unhindered.

Test case #2: Uncover all surfaces of your chosen Mac notebook, but completely block the vents and disconnect the fans.

Now run the same mix of apps under both test cases and see which overheats your MBP faster.

 

[2IS]

Not grasping at straws at all. I've maintained that throughout this thread. You haven't proven anything. How you equate clamshell mode to incidental heat dissipation and how that somehow is the same as adding an insulating material is beyond me.

T Junction temp is also the max temp that the CPU was designed for, you will throttle WELL before you reach that.

Like I said, try again, but not before actually knowing what you're talking about.

Your science project is also useless. Again, no one claimed the vents are not the primary source of cooling

How do you expect to win an argument where you don't know what you're talking about but don't understand what others are saying either?

 

[GGJstudios]

How you equate clamshell mode to incidental heat dissipation and how that somehow is the same as adding an insulating material is beyond me.

Clamshell mode is only an example to illustrate that dissipation is not the primary source of cooling for Apple notebooks. You have yet to prove otherwise.

T Junction temp is also the max temp that the CPU was designed for, you will throttle WELL before you reach that.

Actually, throttling occurs usually around 5 degrees before that.

Your science project is also useless. Again, no one claimed the vents are not the primary source of cooling

Since you're not willing to try that, then try this: Count the number of cases where anyone's notebook overheated because they had a skin on their notebook.

How do you expect to win an argument where you don't know what you're talking about but don't understand what others are saying either?

Again, quote anything that I've said that indicates I don't know what I'm talking about. Just because you claim that doesn't make it true.

 

[Sankersizzle]

I just got my degree in computer engineering and I just wanted to chime in and say that GGJ is right. I don't know where you guys went to engineering school as so many of you claim to have done, but I suggest you take a victory lap.

 

[2IS]

Please point me to the post number where someone participating in this thread claimed that dissipation through the case is the PRIMARY source of cooling.

I'll give you a hint, it never happened. The debate is the effect of insulating the case. It never was and never will be what the primary cooling source is.

It's very clear that this is going nowhere fast. All these replies, back and fourth, and you don't even know what the topic is.

 

[GGJstudios]

The debate is the effect of insulating the case.

And the effect is minimal. There is no problem with putting a skin on a Mac notebook, as they will continue to maintain safe operating temperatures, as long as the vents are not blocked.

 

[Sankersizzle]

Please point me to the post number where someone participating in this thread claimed that dissipation through the case is the PRIMARY source of cooling.

I'll give you a hint, it never happened. The debate is the effect of insulating the case. It never was and never will be what the primary cooling source is.

It's very clear that this is going nowhere fast. All these replies, back and fourth, and you don't even know what the topic is.

Easy there, cowboy. I've read the thread, and it's pretty astounding to me that all you engineers believe that wrapping an MBA in an invisible shield would have any real effect on heat dissipation. Even at the absolute limit of the computer, since the primary dissipation method is a fan and vent, the shield would have no real effect. Especially when you factor in real world usage, such as computing in a bed, on a lap, etc - it would have been mighty foolish of Apple to develop a computer that would overheat if the aluminium was covered. Sure, it has SOME effect, but it's tantamount to the effect jumping upwards from a falling airplane would have in saving your life.

Also, for what it's worth, I have an MBA in an invisible shield that I run hard, and I noticed no difference between having the shield on and off.

 

[2IS]

Apple already designed a MBA that throttled with no wrapping and being used in an open environment, actually.

Is there an app that will detect throttling? There was a windows app called throttle watch but doesn't work on newer CPUs iirc. I'm certainly not about to invest in a wrap since I don't like them to do my own before/after tests but I'm more than willing to run some torture tests against someone who has their MBA wrapped and compare our findings.

 

[MBHockey]

Easy there, cowboy. I've read the thread, and it's pretty astounding to me that all you engineers believe that wrapping an MBA in an invisible shield would have any real effect on heat dissipation. Even at the absolute limit of the computer, since the primary dissipation method is a fan and vent, the shield would have no real effect. Especially when you factor in real world usage, such as computing in a bed, on a lap, etc - it would have been mighty foolish of Apple to develop a computer that would overheat if the aluminium was covered. Sure, it has SOME effect, but it's tantamount to the effect jumping upwards from a falling airplane would have in saving your life.

Also, for what it's worth, I have an MBA in an invisible shield that I run hard, and I noticed no difference between having the shield on and off.

And the effect is minimal. There is no problem with putting a skin on a Mac notebook, as they will continue to maintain safe operating temperatures, as long as the vents are not blocked.

I just got my degree in computer engineering and I just wanted to chime in and say that GGJ is right. I don't know where you guys went to engineering school as so many of you claim to have done, but I suggest you take a victory lap.

GGJ, it was never my contention that you wouldn't be able to run an MBA safely with a skin-wrap. I was only saying you would appreciably increase operating temperatures (which is never a good idea with electronics) since heat dissipation through the case is significant. We disagree on how much the casing contributes to overall heat dissipation. I supported my view by saying fans would spin higher with a wrapped MBA, which is true.

GGJ and Sankersizzle -- I think you two are really underestimating the amount of heat that is dissipated out of the casing. Sankersizzle, no need to whip out the 'engineering card' here. I have a BS in mechanical engineering if that makes you feel better about reading my posts.

Conductive/convective heat transfer through the casing is a significant contributor for cooling. Simple computer anatomy should convince you of this; a heat sink is placed on top of a CPU for this exact purpose.

Why do you think there is no fan sitting directly above the CPU sucking heat away from it? Because it's very efficient to have the heat transferred to the heat sink via conduction and convection (the same way it is dissipated from the casing) and then have that air moved out by a fan than it is to use a fan directly atop the CPU to pull hot air away from it. A fan of this type (sitting directly over the MBA CPU) could easily be used in lieu of the MBA's heat sink yet this is not the chosen design. This is also why in bigger desktops the CPU has a multiple-finned heat sink sitting on it with an exhaust fan at the top, instead of something like two exhaust fans with no heat sink which would take up the same amount of space.

Lastly, what are most computer heat sinks made of? Aluminum. The same material as the unibody casing. The case itself IS a giant heat sink. Do you think this was some kind of design accident?

I'm not saying that casing dissipation is more contributory than the exhaust vent, but let's not pretend it isn't significant.

 

[ihonda]

i have a wrapsol on my air and also my pro. absolutely no increase in heat. it blocks no vents, nor covers anything that heat comes out of. BOTH laptops even have keyboard covers and the only thing i notice is that it filters the audio sound a little bit. heat is no issue tho.

 

[TheRealDamager]

The core disagreement is that MBHockey and 2is are speaking theoretically, everyone is is speaking practically. Is it possible that you are increasing internal temperatures by some tiny fraction. Sure. Will it make any difference to anyone is actual use? No.

 

[boy-better-know]

I am using an invisible shield, and I cannot say that I have had a rise in temp because of it.
Anyway, even if there was a rise in cpu temp, wouldn't the mac automatically detect that and raise the fan speed accordingly?