ZAGG InvisibleSHIELD Heat Issue

[akcarrington]

Facts not supposition

I did refer to facts written by someone who HAS monitored the before and after temperatures, and not with his hand. There is direct evidence that the ZAGG InviibleSHIELD is a bad idea, particularly but not exclusively the base of [MY] 2011 11" MacBook Air.

The MacBook Air I purchased is also more susceptible to higher temperatures because it is the i7 1.86GHz version. Check out AnandTech who have a write up about it:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4554/apples-11inch-macbook-air-core-i7-18ghz-review-update/4

I wasn't saying all computers or MacBook's shouldn't use the ZAGG product. I am saying it DID cause a significant rise in heat radiating from my MacBook Air, which I might point out hasn't happened since I removed the ZAGG film.

Thank you to the 'physicist's' who helped with FACTS and saved me bothering to argue with comments made by people who hadn't even used a ZAGG InvisibleSHIELD but knew all the answers. Oh and do these people with the sweeping statements own a MacBook Air? Emphasis on the AIR! Oh and before GGJ pipes up without reading, the 2011 11" MacBook Air, that's ELEVEN-inch. Thank you. Sigh, i'm getting a headache.

 

[MBHockey]

The core disagreement is that MBHockey and 2is are speaking theoretically, everyone is is speaking practically. Is it possible that you are increasing internal temperatures by some tiny fraction. Sure. Will it make any difference to anyone is actual use? No.

You claim it is purely theoretical only because you still don't think that the case dissipates a signifiant amount of heat.

 

[TheRealDamager]

That "blog" post is so poorly written is really hard to rely on. It also claims that the shield increased his idle temps from 70C to 85C. I find that incredibly difficult to believe. I'm on an Air right now that has an iCarbons skin on it, and it is idling at 48C.

Do even those of you who are proponents of the "insulator" theory believe this effect is likely? If not, then it really calls into question the method and the results (let alone the entire theory).

 

[MBHockey]

That "blog" post is so poorly written is really hard to rely on. It also claims that the shield increased his idle temps from 70C to 85C. I find that incredibly difficult to believe. I'm on an Air right now that has an iCarbons skin on it, and it is idling at 48C.

Do even those of you who are proponents of the "insulator" theory believe this effect is likely? If not, then it really calls into question the method and the results (let alone the entire theory).

I agree with you about the blog post. Note that I never cited the blog post as evidence for my argument.

I'm not sure how big of a change it would be (that would be pure conjecture) but depending on the material used for the skin I think it could be noticeable. Is it going to cause your computer to shut down due to overheating while browsing the web? I very much doubt it. Would it be a good idea to wrap your MBA in plastic and then play games on it for hours, encode, tax the cpu heavily for extended periods of time? Probably not a great idea.

 

[2IS]

The core disagreement is that MBHockey and 2is are speaking theoretically, everyone is is speaking practically. Is it possible that you are increasing internal temperatures by some tiny fraction. Sure. Will it make any difference to anyone is actual use? No.

I see the problem here... You have a fundamental misconception of what a theory is.

This thread wasn't erected off theory, it came about becuase of people noticing higher temps. This isn't the first thread about this topic and it won't be the last. Can you guess why?

I am using an invisible shield, and I cannot say that I have had a rise in temp because of it.
Anyway, even if there was a rise in cpu temp, wouldn't the mac automatically detect that and raise the fan speed accordingly?

Yes, it would. That's the argument though. Does it or does it not cause a increase in temp? No one is saying it's going to overheat with a fireball shooting out of the rear vent, though the side that thinks there is no increase in temps likes to sensationalize what we're actually saying.

For the majority of people it won't be a problem provided the wrapping is properly applied. The question becomes what kind of temps are you looking at in situations where even without the wrap, your fan speed is at 100% duty cycle? And for extended periods?

 

[jsolares]

Since air can't penetrate the aluminum casing, anyway, adding another layer shouldn't make any difference.

What part do you refer to by aluminum casing? air has to penetrate the MBA otherwise the fans would have nothing to move.

Anyone know if the keyboard the only inlet for air on the MBA's?

 

[GGJstudios]

What part do you refer to by aluminum casing? air has to penetrate the MBA otherwise the fans would have nothing to move.

Anyone know if the keyboard the only inlet for air on the MBA's?

There is no air intake or exhaust through the keyboard on any Mac notebook, and there never has been. Both intake and exhaust is through the vents in the rear, which allows venting with the lid open or closed (for operating in clamshell mode). There is a solid panel under the keyboard, preventing any meaningful airflow.

 

[jsolares]

There is no air intake or exhaust through the keyboard on any Mac notebook, and there never has been. Both intake and exhaust is through the vents in the rear, which allows venting with the lid open or closed (for operating in clamshell mode). There is a solid panel under the keyboard, preventing any meaningful airflow.

Glad to know using a silicone key cover on the MBAs should have no increment in heat, but you shouldn't generalize.

I did wonder because i've taken apart a 2006 macbook which would get a lot hotter using a silicone key cover, there was even dust buildup under the silicone cover, and that one has a lot of holes in the back.

 

[GGJstudios]

Glad to know using a silicone key cover on the MBAs should have no increment in heat, but you shouldn't generalize.

I did wonder because i've taken apart a 2006 macbook which would get a lot hotter using a silicone key cover, there was even dust buildup under the silicone cover, and that one has a lot of holes in the back.

It's not generalizing. It's fact. The fans are designed to draw in air from the vents at the rear and exhaust through the vents at the rear. Any air movement through other areas is incidental and not relied on for venting. Spend some time on the iFixIt.com site, where they tear down Mac notebooks. In older models, it looks more like this:

 

[jsolares]

It's not generalizing. It's fact. The fans are designed to draw in air from the vents at the rear and exhaust through the vents at the rear. Any air movement through other areas is incidental and not relied on for venting. Spend some time on the iFixIt.com site, where they tear down Mac notebooks. In older models, it looks more like this:

Good to know you were in the design team for every single laptop apple has made.

The difference in temperatures i experienced with that machine would not make that venting incidental, it's the cause i've never used a keyboard silicone cover since. it caused throttling not even at high loads, it's plastic and yet it would iradiate a lot of heat, neither of the aluminum laptops i've owned since got that hot to the touch.

No laptop i've owned has gotten as hot as that white macbook using a silicone key cover.

It's a bit worrisome to find people assume that apple engineers thought of EVERYTHING and every addon that could be used with the machines, the same engineers that have designed laptops that throttle at full load, the same engineers that have designed iMac displays that get dust between the display and the backlight.

 

[GGJstudios]

Good to know you were in the design team for every single laptop apple has made.

It's not necessary to be part of the design team to know historical facts. All of this information is well-documented.

The difference in temperatures i experienced with that machine would not make that venting incidental

It wasn't venting through the keyboard, regardless of your anecdotal impressions.

It's a bit worrisome to find people assume that apple engineers thought of EVERYTHING and every addon that could be used with the machines,

No one is assuming that Apple engineers have thought of everything. It's amusing to find individuals who post in a forum who think they know more than an entire team of Apple engineers who have spent years developing computers.

... the same engineers that have designed laptops that throttle at full load

No, they're not the same engineers. Throttling is done by the CPU, which is designed by Intel, not Apple.

 

[jsolares]

It's not necessary to be part of the design team to know historical facts. All of this information is well-documented.

It wasn't venting through the keyboard, regardless of your anecdotal impressions.

No one is assuming that Apple engineers have thought of everything. It's amusing to find individuals who post in a forum who think they know more than an entire team of Apple engineers who have spent years developing computers.

No, they're not the same engineers. Throttling is done by the CPU, which is designed by Intel, not Apple.

Throttling might be done buy the CPU designed by intel, but that also tells you about the engineers at apple ability to meet intel specifications for heat dissipation.

The fact remains, that machine was venting through the keyboard, either due to design or by mistake, the difference in temperature would worry me if it was due to mistake.

It's amusing to find individuals who post in a forum that believe apple engineers make no mistakes whatsoever, or even make design decisions not in the end users best interest.

A team of engineers can and do miss things, excuse me if i don't kiss the earth anyone walks on.

Assuming that if it was designed by apple everything will be just fine is a crappy copout. another one that gets me is that if it was manufactured by apple it's impossible that it has any defect whatsoever. maybe worse because apple doesn't manufacture anything at all, it's the same companies that manufacture for everyone else.

 

[GGJstudios]

Throttling might be done buy the CPU designed by intel, but that also tells you about the engineers at apple ability to meet intel specifications for heat dissipation.

Throttling doesn't occur unless extreme demand is placed on system resources. Throttling doesn't happen under average users' normal workloads.

The fact remains, that machine was venting through the keyboard,

It wasn't venting through the keyboard, regardless of what you may think or claim. No Apple notebook has ever used the keyboard as a vent, and yours is no different.

No one is claiming or believing that Apple, it's products or its engineers are without imperfections. However, they are certainly a far more credible authority on this topic than anyone posting in this forum.

 

[2IS]

Throttling might be done buy the CPU designed by intel, but that also tells you about the engineers at apple ability to meet intel specifications for heat dissipation.

The fact remains, that machine was venting through the keyboard, either due to design or by mistake, the difference in temperature would worry me if it was due to mistake.

It's amusing to find individuals who post in a forum that believe apple engineers make no mistakes whatsoever, or even make design decisions not in the end users best interest.

A team of engineers can and do miss things, excuse me if i don't kiss the earth anyone walks on.

Assuming that if it was designed by apple everything will be just fine is a crappy copout. another one that gets me is that if it was manufactured by apple it's impossible that it has any defect whatsoever. maybe worse because apple doesn't manufacture anything at all, it's the same companies that manufacture for everyone else.

And thus we have the problem with GGJs assumptions (and yes, they are assumptions GGJ) while he's spot on with things we already know, like what the primary cooling apparatus is, he's under the impression that quite literally, everything else is incidental. Then he criticizes anecdotal evidence and claims his position is documented (presumably by apple engineers) I have yet to see any documentation that everything and anything that aids in cooling besides the fan and vent is incidental. Anecdotal evidence > fabricated claims.

 

[GGJstudios]

And thus we have the problem with GGJs assumptions (and yes, they are assumptions GGJ) while he's spot on with things we already know, like what the primary cooling apparatus is, he's under the impression that quite literally, everything else is incidental. Then he criticizes anecdotal evidence and claims his position is documented (presumably by apple engineers) I have yet to see any documentation that everything and anything that aids in cooling besides the fan and vent is incidental. Anecdotal evidence > fabricated claims.

No one in this thread, including you, has provided any proof that using a covering over the body of a Mac notebook will cause a significant difference in temperatures. Millions of users of these products who haven't experienced overheating problems and the fact that Apple also sells these products provides overwhelming evidence that those "warning" about them are not credible. To further claim that a MacBook vented through the keyboard, despite clear pictorial proof to the contrary, illustrates that lack of credibility.

 

[TheRealDamager]

I see the problem here... You have a fundamental misconception of what a theory is.

This thread wasn't erected off theory, it came about becuase of people noticing higher temps. This isn't the first thread about this topic and it won't be the last. Can you guess why?

There are all kinds of posts on this board that have no basis in truth or reality. You would be making a mistake to say a problem exists because of a post of two on this board.

We simply disagree. I'm not going to attack your intelligence or your motives - that's simply not necessary. I'm just stating what is (most likely) the truth, especially after having read the "blog post" that started this whole thread.

 

[2IS]

No one in this thread, including you, has provided any proof that using a covering over the body of a Mac notebook will cause a significant difference in temperatures. Millions of users of these products who haven't experienced overheating problems and the fact that Apple also sells these products provides overwhelming evidence that those "warning" about them are not credible. To further claim that a MacBook vented through the keyboard, despite clear pictorial proof to the contrary, illustrates that lack of credibility.

Except the only thing you've proven is something that was never under contention. I and I'm sure everyone else here fully agrees that the primary cooling comes from the fan and vents.

You have not proven that other sources of cooling is incidental by any stretch of the imagination. To claim you have illustrates a clear lack of what proof actually entails and thus, a lack of credibility.

 

[Sankersizzle]

Except the only thing you've proven is something that was never under contention. I and I'm sure everyone else here fully agrees that the primary cooling comes from the fan and vents.

You have not proven that other sources of cooling is incidental by any stretch of the imagination. To claim you have illustrates a clear lack of what proof actually entails and thus, a lack of credibility.

Bro. You're wrong. Everyone but you and MBHockey understand what GGJ is saying. I think you need to cut your losses and give up. You said something stupid -own up to it, and move on.

 

[2IS]

Bro, I'm not. You coming here and telling me that doesn't make it so. Just like GGJ saying he proved something doesn't mean he did. You actually have to show proof, claiming isn't enough. If you have a problem with the discussion it's you who can exit the thread.

Since you agree maybe you can show us the proof he couldn't?

Oh, and just to keep you honest. The OP and the latest person to participate in this thread also disagree. But distorting reality seems to be a common theme among GGJ supporters.

 

[GGJstudios]

Just like GGJ saying he proved something

Quote where I claimed to prove something. You really need to start reading and understanding posts and stop posting false statements about what I said. And for the record, I have no "supporters".

 

[2IS]

It is actually you that needs to understand. Despite nearly 70 posts you seem to still be under the impression that what is under contention is the primary cooling source. It's not.

 

[GGJstudios]

It is actually you that needs to understand. Despite nearly 70 posts you seem to still be under the impression that what is under contention is the primary cooling source. It's not.

I didn't think you could quote me, as you've failed to do before. And there is nothing that indicates I'm under that impression. Try to keep up.

 

[Sankersizzle]

. And for the record, i have no "supporters".

i would follow you to hell and back, sir!

 

[MBHockey]

GGJ, it was never my contention that you wouldn't be able to run an MBA safely with a skin-wrap. I was only saying you would appreciably increase operating temperatures (which is never a good idea with electronics) since heat dissipation through the case is significant. We disagree on how much the casing contributes to overall heat dissipation. I supported my view by saying fans would spin higher with a wrapped MBA, which is true.

GGJ and Sankersizzle -- I think you two are really underestimating the amount of heat that is dissipated out of the casing. Sankersizzle, no need to whip out the 'engineering card' here. I have a BS in mechanical engineering if that makes you feel better about reading my posts.

Conductive/convective heat transfer through the casing is a significant contributor for cooling. Simple computer anatomy should convince you of this; a heat sink is placed on top of a CPU for this exact purpose.

Why do you think there is no fan sitting directly above the CPU sucking heat away from it? Because it's very efficient to have the heat transferred to the heat sink via conduction and convection (the same way it is dissipated from the casing) and then have that air moved out by a fan than it is to use a fan directly atop the CPU to pull hot air away from it. A fan of this type (sitting directly over the MBA CPU) could easily be used in lieu of the MBA's heat sink yet this is not the chosen design. This is also why in bigger desktops the CPU has a multiple-finned heat sink sitting on it with an exhaust fan at the top, instead of something like two exhaust fans with no heat sink which would take up the same amount of space.

Lastly, what are most computer heat sinks made of? Aluminum. The same material as the unibody casing. The case itself IS a giant heat sink. Do you think this was some kind of design accident?

I'm not saying that casing dissipation is more contributory than the exhaust vent, but let's not pretend it isn't significant.

Bro. You're wrong. Everyone but you and MBHockey understand what GGJ is saying. I think you need to cut your losses and give up. You said something stupid -own up to it, and move on.

Did you even read my post on page 2? (quoted above)

Please explain which part you take issue with, or which part you think demonstrates that i don't understand what is being discussed in this thread.

 

[2IS]

I didn't think you could quote me, as you've failed to do before. And there is nothing that indicates I'm under that impression. Try to keep up.

Yeah, you keep using that line and it is just as meaningless now as it was the first time you said it. How about you just refer to post #65.

There was no "pictorial proof" of anything incidental. It's your incidental claim that's being called into question. The fact that you still fail to realize or acknowledge this is baffling.

Or maybe you're just ignoring it because you know as well as I do that you can't prove that claim.

Here's the bottom line. This began with YOUR claim of "incidental" cooling. You have failed to prove that any cooling that takes place beyond the fan alone, is incidental. You can dance around that all you want, but you made the claim, and you've failed to prove it.