15-Inch MacBook Pro With Touch Bar Has Non-Removable SSD

[dzj]

Since these days we cannot get the products we want from Apple, I decided to phase out the 15+ Macs in my team over time and replace them with user-upgradable computers from another company. We have little use for our two iPads so they do not need to be replaced anyway, being only used for games and web browsing. My iPhone 6+ (128 GB) will be replaced by a non-Apple product too. Here, the update to iOS10 introduced mostly problems rather than useful features (unacceptable issues with battery management/sudden shutdowns). After 26 years of using Apple products, it is sad to see the company making such lousy product concept/design decisions like the mbp 2016 or nMP 2013. Until 2011, Macs were still an option and we bought new machines every 2-3 years. Seeing failures of three MBPs because of bad GPUs purchased from 2007 to 2011 was already not encouraging. Since the "experience" with the trash can MacPro 2013, I ended Mac purchases for the team. Four additional members joining next year will get PCs from other manufacturers. For the price of a Mac, I expect user upgradable machines and long lasting product quality. For me, Apple's management decisions are now beyond just being questionable; it is enough for us to quit.

 

[NY Guitarist]

Since these days we cannot get the products we want from Apple, I decided to phase out the 15+ Macs in my team over time and replace them with user-upgradable computers from another company. We have little use for our two iPads so they do not need to be replaced anyway, being only used for games and web browsing. My iPhone 6+ (128 GB) will be replaced by a non-Apple product too. Here, the update to iOS10 introduced mostly problems rather than useful features (unacceptable issues with battery management/sudden shutdowns). After 26 years of using Apple products, it is sad to see the company making such lousy product concept/design decisions like the mbp 2016 or nMP 2013. Until 2011, Macs were still an option and we bought new machines every 2-3 years. Seeing failures of three MBPs because of bad GPUs purchased from 2007 to 2011 was already not encouraging. Since the "experience" with the trash can MacPro 2013, I ended Mac purchases for the team. Four additional members joining next year will get PCs from other manufacturers. For the price of a Mac, I expect user upgradable machines and long lasting product quality. For me, Apple's management decisions are now beyond just being questionable; it is enough for us to quit.

Very similar situation here. We're sadly moving on from Apple ecosystem and performing a soft phase-out as hardware get replaced.

Apple has left us, so we're leaving Apple.

 

[melendezest]

Um. The original post is about the SSD. If other components fail on your LB and you mail it in for a repair without backing up your data then you are an idiot. You should never, and Apple tells you this, mail in you lappy for repair without backing it up. And why encrypt if you have nothing to hide? You and many others on here are imagining a fear where one does not exist.

I agree regarding sending your laptop to Apple without backing it up is stupid. So, how exactly are you to backup the latest data once there is a failure on something other than the SSD?

Unless you have another drive mirroring your data at all times, a failure of any kind on your computer, not just disk-related ones, will render the drive inaccessible, thus completely negating an SSD's reliability.

In the past, any issues with the LB that resulted in having to turn a machine in did not result in the latest data loss. You could pull and connect the drive to an external device to backup your latest data with little to no issues. Apple even made it easy to pull the drives out in the past. No longer.

While this may not be a deal-breaker to you or others, it requires rethinking of your backup workflow and makes the machine inherently far less reliable.

Thus, Apple has turned a Pro machine into an appliance like the iPad. The cycle is complete.

 

[buckwheet]

Self destruct in T-Minus 3 years and counting

Yes, exactly. In fact, a 3-year upgrade strategy has generally been a good one to have with Apple products, since you still get good resale value within that time. However, I would be surprised if that continues to be the case, once people are aware of the fact that the SSD will be a ticking time-bomb on the logic board...

[EDIT: That said, I still have a pair of Crucial M4s that are going strong after 4 years...]

 

[mkldev]

So, everyone complaining has, in fact, previously replaced the SSD on their Apple notebooks, right? You're not just whining about the inability to do something you've never previously done, right?

I've never replaced an SSD, but I have had multiple logic board failures over the years on multiple machines. Whenever I've had these hardware problems, Apple replaced the logic board, and I didn't lose a single byte of data. Unless Apple is willing to unsolder the SSD parts and solder them onto a new board, 100% of all Mac repairs will now involve some data loss, even if it is just the last few hours' work. That's a major regression.

Pro devices need replaceable storage—not because we want upgrade or replace the storage, but because we want Apple to be able to replace everything else but the storage. The data on our SSDs has real value, and rebuilding from backups is an absolute nightmare even in the best of circumstances (when your backups are current).

Some problems that I've seen are:

• Entire iPhoto libraries missing because Apple's Time Machine refused to back them up while iPhoto was running, and iPhoto was always running.
• Files stored in various locations (e.g. /Library/WebServer) not getting backed up.
• Copy-protected software that deliberately prevents backing up and restoring, resulting in painful reinstalls and phone calls to the manufacturers to get an additional installation authorized.
• Spending multiple days restoring a backup.

So even in the best situation, where none of your software has any copy protection and your backups are fully up-to-date, losing your stable storage is still invariably a serious pain, and can be an absolute nightmare if anything went wrong in the backup process. That's why nobody takes iOS devices seriously for pro use. We simply can't trust hardware unless the contents of its storage can be easily recovered even if the rest of the device dies. And with soldered-on flash parts, that almost certainly will not be the case with these machines.

I'm sorry, but this just isn't a pro machine anymore; it's a disposable toy, and Apple should be ashamed.

 

[tubeexperience]

Why didn't you buy a MBP with the specs you needed? You ended up paying $800 for SSD alone and still didn't have the use for the full lifespan. That sounds expensive. ;-)

...because SSD and memory gets cheaper over time.

You can now get a 1TB SSD for less than $200.

Do you know how much a 1TB SSD costs in 2011?

 

[dragje]

The new MacBook Pro(s) are throwaway computers.

Is your SSD full and do you want to upgrade? Tough luck: you can't upgrade with a bigger SSD.

Do you want expand the storage with expansion card? Tough luck because new MacBook Pro doesn't have SD slot either.

Did you have your data on the SSD when the logic board failed? Tough luck because you are not getting that data back.

Hm, two things I like to point out in Apple's defence.... your statement, it's all true, however... the whole point with having an USB-C thunderbolt solution is that you can attach Thunderbolt 3 external drives to it that will pretty much solves all of the storage issues due of it's speed and two directional daya stream option as well as the fact thunderbolt 3 also delivers power to the attached drive.
Meaning, the real disadvantage here, i.m.h.o. is not the fact you can't change your flash drive but rather the fact that a given buyer really needs to think twice on how much internal storage would be enough to start with.

Next, Flash storage is not the same as the old hard drives that uses mechanical method for reading and writing data which often leads to failure and defect drives. I't not stating that flash drives can't fail, but the lifespan is much higher.

But I do agree that this machine is really expensive for what you get and I also agree that in this year of transformation you don't get all of your investment back. That will change during the year, when more and cheaper external thunderbolt 3 harddrives will enter the market as well as external CPU possibilities.

With the new Macbook "Pro" you buy yourself an extremely well build laptop which is fast and in a way prepared for the future; thunderbolt 3, usb-c etc. But you also get a machine that can't lean on a wide variety of external options since they are not available yet, and you also get a machine that will soon be outdated when intel is able to bring the new chips on the market.

Looking at all of these aspects I conclude that I rather wait one more year, then new macbooks will have the latest chips included and the options out of a variety of external USB-c / Thunderbolt 3 devices. It will still be a pricy machine but it will at least be more balanced.

 

[deany]

I've never replaced an SSD, but I have had multiple logic board failures over the years on multiple machines. Whenever I've had these hardware problems, Apple replaced the logic board, and I didn't lose a single byte of data. Unless Apple is willing to unsolder the SSD parts and solder them onto a new board, 100% of all Mac repairs will now involve some data loss, even if it is just the last few hours' work. That's a major regression.

Pro devices need replaceable storage—not because we want upgrade or replace the storage, but because we want Apple to be able to replace everything else but the storage. The data on our SSDs has real value, and rebuilding from backups is an absolute nightmare even in the best of circumstances (when your backups are current).

Some problems that I've seen are:

• Entire iPhoto libraries missing because Apple's Time Machine refused to back them up while iPhoto was running, and iPhoto was always running.
• Files stored in various locations (e.g. /Library/WebServer) not getting backed up.
• Copy-protected software that deliberately prevents backing up and restoring, resulting in painful reinstalls and phone calls to the manufacturers to get an additional installation authorized.
• Spending multiple days restoring a backup.

So even in the best situation, where none of your software has any copy protection and your backups are fully up-to-date, losing your stable storage is still invariably a serious pain, and can be an absolute nightmare if anything went wrong in the backup process. That's why nobody takes iOS devices seriously for pro use. We simply can't trust hardware unless the contents of its storage can be easily recovered even if the rest of the device dies. And with soldered-on flash parts, that almost certainly will not be the case with these machines.

I'm sorry, but this just isn't a pro machine anymore; it's a disposable toy, and Apple should be ashamed.

Totally agree, I posted earlier my iMac had a new logic board but thankfully all data was there when machine returned.
All data was backed up, as we have all been taught.
But as you say TM isn't always 100% reliable apparantly and is a lot of faffing restoring.

We use

• TC
• Backblaze
• Carbon Clone Copy of TC to USB 3 drive

But we were lucky to get a final backup done before carefully boxing the iMac ready for repair.
The machine was acting erratically, not booting up and switching off over night. I can imagine many folk unable to do a final backup and relying on that original SSD with precious data to be replaced onto new logic board.

Lets not forget its the data that is far more valuble than the machine(s), apple seem to have missed that here.

 

[rezwits]

Feeling better about picking up an unopened 2015 MBP 15" for $1600 off eBay, already watching prices at OWC on their SSD upgrades with Envoy enclosures.

YEP.

One thing I think quite a few Mac Users are forgetting or not old enough to be aware of, is there are peaks and valleys to when you should buy computer hardware.

I mean look at the guy who buys a 72" DLP NTSC 480p Floor Model right when HD and 1080i came out? The guy who bought the 480p thinks he got a great deal, but in the end that TV had to get picked up buy the recycling center...

There are TONS of Apples/Macs out there since day 1 that have better value/worth than the model that was released NeXT, pun intended...

I have some PPCs that run some really good ole MAME software, better than any intel Machines can. It's just a fact I have tried to get drivers for controllers and for sound and the MAME on PPC is just slightly better. Just my example HAHA, I like Pole Position MAME with a PowerMate... Snow Leopard is as close as I can get on Intel but there's hiccups with the drivers or delays and lag (rosetta). But other examples like the MacMini 2012 is 100% solid example... and so is the 2015 rMBP...

I just don't get how some of you out there don't understand these models are So! FREAKING! EARLY ADOPTER MODELS...

One of the posters in this thread nailed it: The convergence of iOS + Mac didn't happen in Software it's happening in Hardware...

Apple is making models of Macs that are getting like iPads and iPhones. But one of the things they better start dropping are the prices. I tend to think they will (lower the prices) once we/they start getting/making ArmBooks...

 

[tubeexperience]

Um. The original post is about the SSD. If other components fail on your LB and you mail it in for a repair without backing up your data then you are an idiot. You should never, and Apple tells you this, mail in you lappy for repair without backing it up. And why encrypt if you have nothing to hide? You and many others on here are imagining a fear where one does not exist.

The logic board failed and target disk mode doesn't work.

In the 2015 and earlier model, you can remove the SSD, put it in an enclosure and access that data from another computer.

Unfortunately, you have the 2016 model with soldered SSD. So, how are you going to make a backup before sending the laptop to Apple?

 

[deany]

The logic board failed and target disk mode doesn't work.

In the 2015 and earlier model, you can remove the SSD, put it in an enclosure and access that data from another computer.

Unfortunately, you have the 2016 model with soldered SSD. So, how are you going to make a backup before sending the laptop to Apple?

Yes I would like to know this too please

even with Backblaze and TC, backups are not up to date to the second.

With apples soldered SSD some data loss will be inevitable, from the last TM back to to the whole hard drive, this is unexceptable.

 

[tubeexperience]

Hm, two things I like to point out in Apple's defence.... your statement, it's all true, however... the whole point with having an USB-C thunderbolt solution is that you can attach Thunderbolt 3 external drives to it that will pretty much solves all of the storage issues due of it's speed and two directional daya stream option as well as the fact thunderbolt 3 also delivers power to the attached drive.
Meaning, the real disadvantage here, i.m.h.o. is not the fact you can't change your flash drive but rather the fact that a given buyer really needs to think twice on how much internal storage would be enough to start with.

Next, Flash storage is not the same as the old hard drives that uses mechanical method for reading and writing data which often leads to failure and defect drives. I't not stating that flash drives can't fail, but the lifespan is much higher.

But I do agree that this machine is really expensive for what you get and I also agree that in this year of transformation you don't get all of your investment back. That will change during the year, when more and cheaper external thunderbolt 3 harddrives will enter the market as well as external CPU possibilities.

With the new Macbook "Pro" you buy yourself an extremely well build laptop which is fast and in a way prepared for the future; thunderbolt 3, usb-c etc. But you also get a machine that can't lean on a wide variety of external options since they are not available yet, and you also get a machine that will soon be outdated when intel is able to bring the new chips on the market.

Looking at all of these aspects I conclude that I rather wait one more year, then new macbooks will have the latest chips included and the options out of a variety of external USB-c / Thunderbolt 3 devices. It will still be a pricy machine but it will at least be more balanced.

What's the point of buying a light and thin laptop if you have to bring along external drives?

 

[haydn!]

Are there actually any reasons to buy these machines yet?

 

[tubeexperience]

Are there actually any reasons to buy these machines yet?

It's 3 mm thinner than the previous model.

Is that not a good reason?

 

[trifid]

Are there actually any reasons to buy these machines yet?

lol, to support apple shareholder's mansions?

 

[deany]

Are there actually any reasons to buy these machines yet?

In a word- NO

 

[cerberusss]

The easy way to upgrade your Mac, for many years now: Make a backup. Reset to factory state. Put it on eBay. Pay the difference for a new model.

Totally agree with you.

But between you and me, I type this on an MBA with a 128 GB SSD, and it's been a struggle to not let it run out of space. I knew all the time I just could've bought a new one and resell this one, but for some reason I didn't. When a machine gives me a solid and reliable experience, I just can't part with it. Who knows what I'm going to get?

It's somewhat ridiculous because I could've bought another one, see how it fared and if okay, sold the old one.

Anyway the point is moot because I got myself a nice 15" with a 500 GB SSD.

 

[winmacuser]

I simply love my mid-2012 MBP13, the last of its kind.
Upgradable RAM and 2.5" drive, replacable optical drive, USB ports, SD card reader, battery status indicator, MagSafe.
Now running with new SSD and 8 GB RAM, and I think I will swap the optical drive for a second big mass storage.
If only the display had a bit more resolution ...

And yet it is thin and light enough.

 

[Goratrix]

Samsung 960 EVO - Not Cheaper than Apple 1TB upgrade, Not Faster than Apple 1TB upgrade. See what I did there, including links to actual facts. Your trump is busted!

For the last time, are you somehow mathematically challenged or just trolling? You are comparing upsell prices to full prices.

Apple charges you $400 to go from 512GB to 1TB (you pay $400 for 512GB of storage) or $600 to go from 256 GB to 1TB (you pay $600 for 768 GB of storage), so overall you are paying $200 per 256GB, ergo you pay $800 for 1 TB of nonremovable storage.

Meanwhile, the Samsung 960 Pro 1TB costs $630. And you can remove and upgrade it in a year or two or three when prices are half and speeds are double again.

 

[cerberusss]

Cook adds actually having slaves in China build your overpriced products.

I can certainly understand people being pissed off about the new MBP and its disadvantages, but I think it's extremely bad taste to pull slavery into a complaint.

 

[Glassed Silver]

Apple never ceases to amaze me.

I genuinely thought they couldn't have ****ed up this device more, but here we are, looking at this news and I'm wondering again how long it'll take sit out all of this BS...

I need a new Mac in 2-3 years (nothing beefy, I'm moving to Windows for that), but I'm not paying pro prices for casual hardware.

Glassed Silver:ios

 

[jyen]

Use Amazon Workspaces and do your development work in the cloud to begin with.
I'm a developer too--I do all of my virtualization on a separate machine. Makes it easier for QA purposes too, since you wouldn't need to give some access to your local box for testing.

 

[vmistery]

I see a lot of people defending apple on this but how can you? The SSD is the most likely internal component to wear out after the battery so if it fails then boom your very expensive laptop is a paper weight. Unless they have massively over provisioned them I'd be concerned to buy one as it will be too expensive to repair, I hope that they clarify what they have done to make sure this is not a problem. I honestly can't believe that an M.2 port is really too large to squeeze in.

 

[Ploki]

The photos also show "pretty large, nearly index finger width gaps" around the battery cells, possibly to keep the MacBook Pro's overall weight lower and to encourage better airflow.

super. please make it 200g heavier to compensate with the battery for 32GB ram.

The new MacBook Pro(s) are throwaway computers.

Is your SSD full and do you want to upgrade? Tough luck: you can't upgrade with a bigger SSD.

Do you want expand the storage with expansion card? Tough luck because new MacBook Pro doesn't have SD slot either.

Did you have your data on the SSD when the logic board failed? Tough luck because you are not getting that data back.

only valid concern. Also concerns me.
On the other hand, I can't remember one incident on iPad/iPhone where STORAGE failed.

upgrading was garbage already since 2012. i wanted to upgrade the SSD to 512GB from 256GB and the prices are more or less so high i just figured I'll save up for a new computer instead.

expanding with disks however is better than ever (4x TB3? come on, thats so much throughput).
I have the nifty. Speeds suck. If you have a 1gb/s SSD (i have the old SATA3 500mb/s), everything on an SD card will suck balls.

So throwaway? no. I don't really think so. If SSDs inside prove to be reliable, these will most likely last longer than last gen powerbooks did (hehe). Or many other intel based. Interfaces get outdated (SATA3 in my 2012 retina in example) so you can't really pull out all the potential out of upgrades, they don't support OS anymore, etc etc.

It's just another way of thinking (the same way it was about RAM in 2012 retina), example, if you think you'll need it, you buy it right away. I did with RAM in 2012, was vary with SSD, am now super-sorry I didn't buy a larger drive, but hey. Next time.

 

[Shakatak]

Hey guys, I know this sucks, and it does... But Apple probably wouldn't be able to get higher speeds over 2,000 MBps speeds if you had a separate SSD module... So its speed over userbility there. We know what Apple choose.

I wish Apple fans would bother getting some of their information from outside the Apple bubble, every once in a while. These speeds are not exclusive to proprietary Apple drives, hell Apple doesn't even make SSDs themselves. www.samsung.com/NVMeSSD960PRO-960EVO/