As as person who also has dry eye syndrome, I just looked into this product. It is produced by an International Pharmaceutical Co located in Croatia and apparently isn't available for sale in the US. I don't have eye pain but my eyes are easily irritated by looking at a computer screen for long periods of time. I use preservative free individual vials of Systane lubricant eye drops which I have found work best for me.
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16 inch MacBook Pro causes eye strain/pain while 15 inch Retina does not?
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As as person who also has dry eye syndrome, I just looked into this product. It is produced by an International Pharmaceutical Co located in Croatia and apparently isn't available for sale in the US. I don't have eye pain but my eyes are easily irritated by looking at a computer screen for long periods of time. I use preservative free individual vials of Systane lubricant eye drops which I have found work best for me.
It may be specific to my country (Hungary) but I'm sure any typical eyedrops for contact lenses and dry eyes would work. We call them "artificial tears" here, but I'm not sure what the right expression is in English. Basically it's nothing more than sterile water with the right salt content. It has no "effect" other than adding moisture to your eyes.
Have exactly same issue with eye strain. Was trying to adapt (struggling/tuning) for two weeks and now decided to return MBP16. No eye issues currently with MBP2014 and MBP2017.
I'm able to feel the difference on MBP16 when switching between integrated Intel and AMD. With AMD it's slightly better for eyes but doesn't solve the problem. With Intel it's completely terrible and unusable. Tried different workarounds. gSwitch + 100% brightness + Gamma Control to compensate the brightness + turn off TrueTone + turn off auto brightness does help. But buttery goes away very rapidly.
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Dry eyes are really common, we blink less when we are using devices which exacerbates this.
How about the theory that a new laptop is more engaging, exciting, and engrossing. Therefore you spending more time not blinking = eye strain.
?
How about the theory that a new laptop is more engaging, exciting, and engrossing. Therefore you spending more time not blinking = eye strain.
?
Haha, perhaps you could elaborate?
What do you think causes the symptoms described in this thread?
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PWM, temporal dithering or who knows...
Anyway the strain is immediate, not related to fatigue or other environmental factors.
How does PWM / temporal dithering cause the symptoms?
ie by what mechanism do your eyes strain?
For example pupillary reflexes have a temporal low pass response of around 1 Hz. Pupillary or accommodative spasm seems very unlikely with the frequencies in question.
For local discomfort to occur it’s much more likely to relate to the ocular surface / dryness.
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Also it’s not entirely clear what people are describing as eye strain here is it:
1) eye discomfort (ie sore, acheing, stinging, burning, red, watery, etc)
2) visual discomfort (flicker, blur, contrast sensitivity, colour perception, brightness, etc)
3) headache / migraine symptoms
ie are we speaking the same language?
ie by what mechanism do your eyes strain?
For example pupillary reflexes have a temporal low pass response of around 1 Hz. Pupillary or accommodative spasm seems very unlikely with the frequencies in question.
For local discomfort to occur it’s much more likely to relate to the ocular surface / dryness.
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Also it’s not entirely clear what people are describing as eye strain here is it:
1) eye discomfort (ie sore, acheing, stinging, burning, red, watery, etc)
2) visual discomfort (flicker, blur, contrast sensitivity, colour perception, brightness, etc)
3) headache / migraine symptoms
ie are we speaking the same language?
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You can find some studies re PWM online. Temporal dithering hasn't been studied yet as far as I know, but there's a plausible connection of a similar kind. Here's a paper that cites some of the sources:
It's quite possible that some people experience discomfort, etc for correctible ocular reasons too, but that doesn't cover everyone.
It's quite possible that some people experience discomfort, etc for correctible ocular reasons too, but that doesn't cover everyone.
If a new owner suddenly started getting headaches or eye fatigue and never had that before, I think its pretty conclusive to say that its related to the laptop.
While PWM doesn't affect everyone, its not something I'm willing to gamble 3,000 dollars on and its disappointing that apple uses a display technology that can cause eye strain.
It's definitely not because you're spending more time not blinking. It's already has beed described in this thread that eyes get relaxed immediately after you switch to older MBP models. The same is for me.
I'm new to this thread but I read the entire thread carefully as well as others related and agree with all the symptoms described as "eye strain". I found more people are complaining with MBP16 so this issue gets wider.
To reiterate the "eye strain" feeling in my case I feel it as if I wear too strong eye glassed so that I simply cannot focus on text no matter what size it is or how far I'm from the display or what resolution/scaling I set in the display settings. In my case there is no sore or sand feeling or headache. Probably it's because I'm not spending too much time with the new MBP. Comparing to MBP2017 single letters look the same, but when reading text it's not possible to focus and concentrate. This is so destructing for the eyes and brain so that I don't understand what I'm reading ). All brain energy and attention is occupied and spent on focusing attempts. Reading text or coding turns into a focusing battle rather than on the mental subject. After a moment I feel text is not sharp and text contrast is low. I.e. the black text starts looking as greyed out with a haze effect. All these disappear when I switch to MBP 2017. The same text in terminal looks black and sharp with no haze and I can read with comfort.
It's a subject for investigation for Apple. Nobody knows the root cause. For me it looks like a combination of different factors. MBP 2017 and MBP 16'' have the same latest Catalina 10.15.4 so the same drivers probably. But with MBP 2017 HW they work much better.
And it's not about larger display size. If I cover half of the screen the effect remains. When I boot into safe mode things get better. So it's a combination of driver + display panel in the MBP 16''. I would pay additional cost if Apple can fix it in my unit.
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I feel also a flickering effect that sprays out from the screen. A theory on 15Hz fake flickering because of dithering seems to be true, but for some reason it doesn't happen with MBP 2017.
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In all other aspects MBP 16 is amazing - display size, keyboard, sound, trackpad, materials, power. Amazing! I waited exactly for this model many years since 2014 after they introduced butterfly keyboard. I really enjoy every aspect of MBP 16'' with one exception - this flickering haze effect that prevents me from using all the advantages.
Some people reported they continued exchanging older MBP model units several times until they got flicker-free/acceptable version. Others reported different MBP configs had display panels from different manufacturers. Even keyboard had slight difference on the first Touch Bar versions depending on CPU config.
Probably MBP 16'' i7 AMD 5300 and MBP 16'' i9 AMD 5500 configs have different display panel manufacturers as well.
Mine one is MBP 16'' i7 AMD 5300. Would like to know other's configs from who's having the eye strain.
Some people reported they continued exchanging older MBP model units several times until they got flicker-free/acceptable version. Others reported different MBP configs had display panels from different manufacturers. Even keyboard had slight difference on the first Touch Bar versions depending on CPU config.
Probably MBP 16'' i7 AMD 5300 and MBP 16'' i9 AMD 5500 configs have different display panel manufacturers as well.
Mine one is MBP 16'' i7 AMD 5300. Would like to know other's configs from who's having the eye strain.
Here is my story with my Macbook 15-inch mid-2015 with AMD M370X GPU：
I had Macbook Air 13-inch 2013 model, I used it for 3 years without any problem. Then I switched to Macbook Pro 15-inch (mid-2015). I thought a bigger and accurate colored retina would help my vision. I didn't know it is the start of the nightmare. In the beginning, my eyes didn’t feel so terrible, just feel a little bit uncomfortable. Then after more than one-year usage of MacBook pro 15′’, I found my eyes cannot focus well. So I went to the ophthalmologist to have the eye checked. The doctor told me my vision was then the same as before, but I had dry eye and strabismus (caused by the defect of eye muscles), but I never had this problem before, neither any of my relatives have the strabismus. I thought these symptoms are caused by my lens, maybe the pupil distance or pupil location didn't match my lens optical center. So I went to Lenscrafters to buy a new pair of glasses, they marked my pupils locations on the lens. With the new glass, I still felt my eyes can easily get tired and cannot easily focus at the retina display of the Macbook, I tried to reduce the brightness, enable dark mode, enable night shift, I even installed win10 by Bootcamp (I thought the bad readability could be caused by the fonts rendering of macOS, actually at the same resolution macOS fonts are smaller and low contrast comparing with Win 10, at least for Chinese characters.)
I went to ophthalmologist again to get my eyes checked, the doctor said my eyes’ muscle was fine, I didn’t have strabismus, and recommended me to have an anti-blue light coated lens, because blue lights can cause eye strain. I bought a new lens, still didn't help.
1, Try matte screen protector to reduce the reflection, but the protector downgrade the display a lot!
2, Another solution can relieve eye strain is changing 15.5 inch MacBook pro resolution to 1280*800, and enable “Increase contrast” (system preference-> accessibility ->Display), disable “Use font smoothing when available”. The technology developed a lot in the past decades, the 15.5 inch display default resolution increased from 1280*800 to 1680*1050, but human being’s eyes are almost the same (maybe even worse) after decades. The font rendering and default font size of Macbook make the readability very bad. But reducing the resolution and increase contrast can improve the overall readability and save your eyes.
3, I did more researches, I don’t know whether it is coincidence or not. The one I cannot focus and have eye stain - The screen/monitor of the MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2015 has PWM for low brightness (maybe < 80% brightness). The ones I don’t have eye stain - MacBook Air 13 inch 2013 and iPad Pro 12.9 2018, both of them don’t have PWM screens. although the PWM frequency should be hundreds of kHz, which is pretty high frequency, and cannot easily noticed by human eyes. Maybe some people’s eyes are more sensitive to these PWM brightness changing.
I had Macbook Air 13-inch 2013 model, I used it for 3 years without any problem. Then I switched to Macbook Pro 15-inch (mid-2015). I thought a bigger and accurate colored retina would help my vision. I didn't know it is the start of the nightmare. In the beginning, my eyes didn’t feel so terrible, just feel a little bit uncomfortable. Then after more than one-year usage of MacBook pro 15′’, I found my eyes cannot focus well. So I went to the ophthalmologist to have the eye checked. The doctor told me my vision was then the same as before, but I had dry eye and strabismus (caused by the defect of eye muscles), but I never had this problem before, neither any of my relatives have the strabismus. I thought these symptoms are caused by my lens, maybe the pupil distance or pupil location didn't match my lens optical center. So I went to Lenscrafters to buy a new pair of glasses, they marked my pupils locations on the lens. With the new glass, I still felt my eyes can easily get tired and cannot easily focus at the retina display of the Macbook, I tried to reduce the brightness, enable dark mode, enable night shift, I even installed win10 by Bootcamp (I thought the bad readability could be caused by the fonts rendering of macOS, actually at the same resolution macOS fonts are smaller and low contrast comparing with Win 10, at least for Chinese characters.)
I went to ophthalmologist again to get my eyes checked, the doctor said my eyes’ muscle was fine, I didn’t have strabismus, and recommended me to have an anti-blue light coated lens, because blue lights can cause eye strain. I bought a new lens, still didn't help.
1, Try matte screen protector to reduce the reflection, but the protector downgrade the display a lot!
2, Another solution can relieve eye strain is changing 15.5 inch MacBook pro resolution to 1280*800, and enable “Increase contrast” (system preference-> accessibility ->Display), disable “Use font smoothing when available”. The technology developed a lot in the past decades, the 15.5 inch display default resolution increased from 1280*800 to 1680*1050, but human being’s eyes are almost the same (maybe even worse) after decades. The font rendering and default font size of Macbook make the readability very bad. But reducing the resolution and increase contrast can improve the overall readability and save your eyes.
3, I did more researches, I don’t know whether it is coincidence or not. The one I cannot focus and have eye stain - The screen/monitor of the MacBook Pro 15-inch mid-2015 has PWM for low brightness (maybe < 80% brightness). The ones I don’t have eye stain - MacBook Air 13 inch 2013 and iPad Pro 12.9 2018, both of them don’t have PWM screens. although the PWM frequency should be hundreds of kHz, which is pretty high frequency, and cannot easily noticed by human eyes. Maybe some people’s eyes are more sensitive to these PWM brightness changing.
Thus spake these photos(taken by iPhone 11 Pro Max).
Used this site: https://testufo.com/framerates-text
I love everything about my 16'' MBP expect this, wondering how people say they have perfect display panel on 16''.
Used this site: https://testufo.com/framerates-text
I love everything about my 16'' MBP expect this, wondering how people say they have perfect display panel on 16''.
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This test shows slow response rate / response time. It's widely known MacBook displays has slow response rates. MBP 16'' - ~50ms, MBP 2018 ~40ms. It's really big comparing to 2-3 ms available from other vendors. This is a disadvantage for 3D games, but it's good for static pictures and text. You should take this into account that MacBook is not perfect for 3D games and watching hi-res movies, but still more or less ok.
This is not an issue for those who do programming, writing, internet surfing, photo processing. And this is not related to the topic of this thread when people are complaining about problems with watching a static text.
There is a simpler way to make this dynamic rate test. Enable dark mode, open "Settings" app and try to move it's window slightly and you will see a white tail after white letters.
I'm ok with this because it doesn't affect my work or eye strain. I can still say that MBP 2017 display with ~40 ms response is a good display.
This is not an issue for those who do programming, writing, internet surfing, photo processing. And this is not related to the topic of this thread when people are complaining about problems with watching a static text.
There is a simpler way to make this dynamic rate test. Enable dark mode, open "Settings" app and try to move it's window slightly and you will see a white tail after white letters.
I'm ok with this because it doesn't affect my work or eye strain. I can still say that MBP 2017 display with ~40 ms response is a good display.
This is not true for me. When I program or do text-intensive work, I can easily get eye strain. But it is better for me when I watch video or play game. It is because the screen is difficult to be focused on. When watch video etc., my eyes don't really need to focus to small fonts.
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I am going to do an experiment. I will install Windows 10 by boot camp. And use this method to disable AMD temporal dithering (https://help.teradici.com/s/article/1569). So far is fine with my eyes.
Maybe macbook pro eye strain is a software problem. The macbook retina screen actually is a 8-bit color depth, however, apple "cheats" by temporal dithering by fast scan the colors to realize "10-bit" color depth. For me, I need my macbook pro mainly for programming and text word, I don't really need fantastic color dynamic...
I've leaned at Mac Rumors that the price of perfection is about $2500, so $3000 would be $500 more than should be necessary for it.
The 16" doesn't have PWM problems. Its PWM has been tested and found to be far out of the problematic range. PWM came up because the good doctor asked about it.
The theory here is that temporal dithering may be causing similar trouble. The use of temporal dithering is common to almost all high-end laptops using Windows and MacOS these days, so Apple isn't doing something outside industry standards, or any established standards. Only a very small number of people are affected and it hasn't been established by research yet whether it's actually because of the temporal dithering, though there's suggestive anecdotal evidence it is. It's a developing issue.
Don't underestimate human's eyes, they are sensitive to a single photon ; )
The human eye can detect a single photon, study finds
Your eyes may be more sensitive than you ever thought possible.
This is what I wanted to say. The test presented demonstrates just a long response time which is not related to the thread's topic. In dynamic scenes (games and videos) the screen is quite ok, that you also confirm, and those details are not connected to the problem of focusing on static text that we have here in this thread.
This is really cool experiment. I don't recall someone did this in the thread.
BTW did you try to boot Macbook in safe mode and see an impact on your eyes? It should probably also disable temporal dithering. Just to check.
Safe mode will disable a number of graphics capabilities, so it won't isolate the effects of temporal dithering. It makes graphics annoying in its own ways, though.
It's apparently possible to disable temporal dithering in MacOS, but it's not general knowledge how.
It's apparently possible to disable temporal dithering in MacOS, but it's not general knowledge how.
The lack of a scientific approach, mainly.
I agree, it's a difficult topic to understand. I'm doing some research.
It does sound as though most of what is being described here is perceptual, rather than ocular.