16 inch MacBook Pro causes eye strain/pain while 15 inch Retina does not?

[CRoebuck]

Hi everyone,

TLDR: I strongly suspect it's a dithering algorithm issue in Intel drivers.

I posted several months ago in the other thread regarding eye strain with the 16" MBP but recent findings have got me posting here too. Long story short I have a 2017 13" MBP TB model. Never had any issues with eye strain, soreness etc. However Upon trying any flavor of 2018 / 2019 15" or 13" MBP I immediately noticed soreness, a sensation of "hard to focus" and often noticed movement/flicker in surrounding text or images. I've tried several examples of both 13" and 15" (maybe a dozen) and noticed these effects in all. I also noticed returning to my 2017 (or my 2017 Surface Pro 5) gave immediate relief. I assumed the different panels (A03E versus A034) in the 13" MBP between 2017 and 2018 was the cause. Then in late 2019 I upgraded the version of Windows on my Surface Pro, can't remember the exact version, and immediately noticed a similar effect. Literally within 10 minutes, my eyes were sore and the machine almost unusable. I rolled back and the problem was resolved. I then rolled forward and it returned. So I tried installing ditherig, a Windows EXE for switching off temporal dithering and found it made both versions of Windows appear great (as much as Windows can be ;-) so I formed the conclusion that this is an Intel graphic driver issue whereby the dithering algorithm has been changed somewhat and now gives me a problem. Fast forward to May, my 2017 has been a champ, no keyboard failure either and I upgraded from 10.15.4 to .5 and WHAM !!!! I have eye strain and soreness and difficulty focusing. I am rolling back as we speak and am even more convinced this is a graphic driver issue. Why did the 2017 work for the past 2 years whilst 2018/19 have been unusable for me??? Who knows but I do know I'm working on a Surface Pro for now and wondering whatever can I do once my 2017 dies (or gets a forced update)........

 

[hungryghosty]

Interesting. I was wondering if I should look at the 2020 MacBook Air 13" as an alternative to the Pro (as it uses a different display panel) but from what you're saying it sounds like it might also be affected by this issue.

"I immediately noticed soreness, a sensation of "hard to focus" and often noticed movement/flicker in surrounding text or images."

That's exactly the issue I found with my 2020 13" MacBook Pro and why I returned the device.

 

[CRoebuck]

Interesting. I was wondering if I should look at the 2020 MacBook Air 13" as an alternative to the Pro (as it uses a different display panel) but from what you're saying it sounds like it might also be affected by this issue.

That’s certainly my observation. A machine that for 3 years has been fine is suddenly, following an update, exhibiting behaviour that was evident in the many 2018/19 models that I’d previously tried and rejected.

I should say that I’ve also tried a 2017 15” that was also fine.

during this time I also made note of panel identification numbers / part numbers and noted that for 2017 there were at least 2 suppliers for 13” and 15” models each but for 2018 onwards there was juat one part for each size. I’m not sure if this has any relevance.

I should also say that several Windows updates had similar effects however the option to disable temporal dithering always remains and so far always has the desired effect.

 

[simonmet]

How do you disable temporal dithering in Windows? I’ve not had issues but I’m keen to see if I can notice any difference.

 

[CRoebuck]

How do you disable temporal dithering in Windows? I’ve not had issues but I’m keen to see if I can notice any difference.

It can be done via the registry and there are guides on the web to do this or you can use a tool such as 'Ditherig' (note the mis-spelling) which I found over on the LEDStrain forum along with a ton of useful information from fellow sufferers. To be clear this seems to be an industry-wide movement towards using dithering and is not just Apple.

You'll also see on that forum that there are people out there trying to do the same for Mac OS (disable it) but these efforts have yet to yield a solution.

 

[simonmet]

It can be done via the registry and there are guides on the web to do this or you can use a tool such as 'Ditherig' (note the mis-spelling) which I found over on the LEDStrain forum along with a ton of useful information from fellow sufferers. To be clear this seems to be an industry-wide movement towards using dithering and is not just Apple.

You'll also see on that forum that there are people out there trying to do the same for Mac OS (disable it) but these efforts have yet to yield a solution.

Thanks. It looks like Ditherig is just for Intel graphics, which Boot Camp (frustratingly) doesn’t use, but I’ll try the Registry edit out of curiosity to see if I can notice anything.

 

[hungryghosty]

It's a really odd feeling when looking at the screen of my 2020 MBP as superficially it often looks fine but after reading for a few seconds I notice text around what I'm focussing on shimmer/flickering/shaking as though it isn't stable.

Also, it feels like a strain trying to focus on the text I'm reading. When focusing on the display if feels like I'm going almost cross-eyed. As though what I'm trying to focus on isn't stable and is constantly shifting in and out of focus. Very strange as I've never noticed any issues with any kind of display in the past and I have an up to date eyesight prescription?

If it is an issue with the Intel drivers would that also mean we'd see the same issue if we connected an external display to the Macbook as presumably it would use the same dithering algorithm for the display?

 

[CRoebuck]

If it is an issue with the Intel drivers would that also mean we'd see the same issue if we connected an external display to the Macbook as presumably, it would use the same dithering algorithm for the display?

You're describing exactly what I experience. Often the menu bar text appears to move when I'm focussed on something elsewhere, I catch the movement in my peripheral vision so to speak.

Certainly, I do notice on my 2 external Dell 2K displays. Likewise plugging the Surface in via the Surface dock gives a very comfortable experience.
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Thanks. It looks like Ditherig is just for Intel graphics, which Boot Camp (frustratingly) doesn’t use, but I’ll try the Registry edit out of curiosity to see if I can notice anything.

I know bootcamp uses the DGPU rather than dynamically switching between AMD Radeon or Intel iGPU like Mac OS does BUT my understanding was that from a hardware perspective actually BOTH are used with the video feed at least electrically always going via the iGPU. I may be totally mistaken here (anyone?). I have tried using GFX CardStatus to force the dGPU on a 15" to always use dedicated graphics and I still suffered (although anecdotally not as bad)

 

[hungryghosty]

Certainly, I do notice on my 2 external Dell 2K displays.
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I know bootcamp uses the DGPU rather than dynamically switching between AMD Radeon or Intel iGPU like Mac OS does BUT my understanding was that from a hardware perspective actually BOTH are used with the video feed at least electrically always going via the iGPU. I may be totally mistaken here (anyone?). I have tried using GFX CardStatus to force the dGPU on a 15" to always use dedicated graphics and I still suffered (although anecdotally not as bad)

I take it that was a typo and you meant to say you don't notice the issue on your Dell displays?

That's an interesting question about the 16" model as in MacOS is switches between the Intel/AMD GPU? Would the text dithering algorithm vary depending on the GPU being used?

It annoys me that my local store is still closed with the pandemic as I really want to go in and compare the 13" Air, 13" Pro and 16" Pro models to see if I can see this issue on any/all of them or whether it was purely just the 13" MBP I bought last week being faulty!

 

[Tozovac]

Very helpful thread, from which I may hold off updating my 2013 MBA quite yet, unfortunately. I have never had eyestrain issues using my “low quality” MBA by itself or with a 30” cinema display. I do feel more eyestrain using my iPad Air 3 than my MBA, for which as far as I can tell from some quick research does not do the things the retina MBP’s are doing that cause eyestrain.

 

[CRoebuck]

I take it that was a typo and you meant to say you don't notice the issue on your Dell displays?

I do get the same flicker externally when using the Mac, but not with the Surface, suggesting a graphics driver issue rather than a panel problem

 

[alexbzzz]

No way. It's hardly larger than my previous 15.4 inch MBP. And I've used 27 inch iMacs for years before, as well as 17 inch CRT monitors, even TV screens and the LG ultrafine 5K. Never, in my 30 years of existence, has a screen caused me eye strain. I've used computers for 13 hours straight, 5 days a week, with and without glasses, sitting way too close to the screen, turning the brightness way too high, and I have never had any discomfort.

But now, the moment I open my 16 inch MBP, it's like there's this invisible, damaging energy emanating from it. I can sit close or far from it, I can turn the brightness up or down, I can spend 1 minute or 10 hours in front of it, and it hurts like hell. Every minute of using this computer feels like my eyes are going to explode. I have never experienced anything even remotely similar to this.
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Not yet. I have 3 more days to decide. The issue is that returning it would mean switching back to Windows (previous generations of MBP have the butterfly keyboard, and the ones before are too slow for what I need). It's quite a big and permanent life-changing decision and I was really not prepared to have to make this decision now. This kind of sucks right now. I'm doing tests and so far here are my results:

MBP screen brightness tests

• Dec 22-23:
  • True Tone: OFF
  • Auto Brightness: OFF
  • Brightness level: 100%
    • NO EYE STRAIN WHATSOEVER
    • Supports PWM theory: max brightness usually does not use PWM
      • There may be other brightness levels that don't use PWM, but hard to determine which ones. Need to test further.
• Dec 24:
  • True Tone: OFF
  • Auto Brightness: OFF
  • Brightness level: 3 notches below max
    • Some eye strain after 5-10 minutes (feels like wearing the wrong prescription glasses: pressure, strain, I constantly want to look away from the screen)
    • Pain behind eyes when looking from side to side after 30 minutes
    • More pressure and pain after more time
    • No redness
• Dec 25 (same settings):
  • A little eye strain
  • Does not get worse over time
• Dec 26
  • Not much eye strain today
• Dec 27:
  • 6 notches below max brightness
  • No eye strain
• Jan 1:
  • 3 notches below max
  • Turned off night mode on all websites (= more white backgrounds instead of black/dark backgrounds)
  • This is now definitely worse
  • Noticeable eye strain after 20 minutes when looking left/right/up
    • Pain behind/around eyeballs
    • Feels like invisible burning force is pushing against my eyes from the screen’s direction
  • Maybe lack of eye strain was due to limited white screen areas thanks to dark themes on websites?
• Jan 2:
  • Auto brightness enabled
    • Noticeable pain after a few minutes
    • Pain behind eyes when looking left/right/up
    • Very difficult to keep eyes on screen, the longer I stare at it, the more it hurts
      • Looking away is relieving, almost pleasurable
• Jan 3:
  • Auto brightness still enabled:
    • Eye pain after just a few minutes
    • Pain increases with time
    • Screen feels like it’s emanating some kind of damaging light (feels like staring into the Sun despite not being too bright at all)
  • Auto brightness disabled:
    • Less eye strain
• Jan 4:
  • Auto brightness disabled
  • 4 notches below max
  • A bit of eye strain after 10 minutes

• In the past few days, I have been waking up every morning with sore, dry eyes, friction pain when opening/closing eyes. Subsides after 10-20 minutes of being awake. This was definitely not happening before.

Could be large amounts of infrared coming out of it. I first saw this with a Panasonic plasma TV and then with the OLED iPhone XS. All give out the same feeling as you described and in the case of the Panasonic you can actually feel it on your skin when you sit next to it as if being tanned.

I guess the new wide colour displays for some reason also give out infrared.

Edit: come to think of it, there’s a similar sensation when going out in a cloudy but brightly lit environment. Your eyes would open up but the clouds still allow the infrared radiation through. Just a guess says it’s harmless and maybe actually beneficial.

 

[danwestbrook]

Anyone done any testing in macOS Big Sur? Just installed it on my 16” MBP. Only been using it a short while but already feels like it’s not hurting my eyes as much as before. Could be a placebo effect, wondering how others have found it?

 

[son2018]

Anyone done any testing in macOS Big Sur? Just installed it on my 16” MBP. Only been using it a short while but already feels like it’s not hurting my eyes as much as before. Could be a placebo effect, wondering how others have found it?

A month later, is it still better?

 

[danwestbrook]

A month later, is it still better?

So I don’t use it as my main machine as it’s not compatible with some apps due to Big Sur but yes I’ve got to say the times I do use it I’ve not noticed my eyes getting as sore so quickly if at all. There is a way to install Big Sur in a separate APFS partition so you can dual boot to either Catalina and Big Sur.

I’d say give it a go and love to hear your feedback!

 

[macretinahurts]

Here is my update:

I had a terrible experiences with my Macbook Pro mid-2015 15 inch. Which caused a serious eyestrain problem for me. My eyes couldn't keep looking at the screen for a long time, and my eyes couldn't easily focus. I can not remember it happened before Apple replaced the screen panel for me or after it (due to the Staingate, Apple replaced the screen affected for free). Anyhow, the screen I have now on my mid-2015 15 inch has hurt my eyes for a long time.

I recently ordered a 16inch macbook pro, it turns out the 16 inch is much easier for my eyes!!! I also tried 13-inch, it also didn't cause eyestrain. I guess the retina screen causes eyestrain is not because of PWM etc. Maybe there are some defects about the backlight. I am not sure. But definitely some macbook panels do cause eyestrain, maybe these panels are from different supplier. The free replace of my macbook pro 15inch (mid-2015) didn't provide me a good quality screen and caused a huge problem for me... Now I am pretty happy with my new Macbook pro 16 inch.

The good idea is buying a macbook from Apple.com and try it within 14 days to figure out whether your eyes can get use to it or not. Hopefully, someone can figure out the real cause of the eyestrain from retina macbook.

 

[alexbzzz]

After the latest update today I switched it on (2017 MBP 13 2thunderbolt) and it felt immediately different, more relaxing on the eyes. Maybe something was changed.

 

[TDDM]

It’s been a few months, definitely interested in hearing if Big Sur has alleviated the eye strain issues for you guys. I had the same issues with recent Macs, it’s getting really frustrating.

Also, out of curiousity, for those of you affected by these symptoms: Do you also get eye strain with any of these devices?

-iPhone X/XS/11 Pro
-iPhone XR/11
-iPad Air 3
-iPad Pro 2018

 

[CRoebuck]

Also, out of curiousity, for those of you affected by these symptoms: Do you also get eye strain with any of these devices?

-iPhone X/XS/11 Pro
-iPhone XR/11
-iPad Air 3
-iPad Pro 2018

Not tried Big Sur yet so still stuck on my 2017 MBP13" as the 2019/20 models are just too uncomfortable for me. I've found a tool on Windows (Ditherig.exe) that makes recent builds of Windows very usable for me. The difference with/without is noticeable immediately (Surface Pro 2017) adding to my belief that it's a side effect of temporal dithering, at least in my case. On the question of Phones. I use an XR every day with no issue. I Find the XS/11 a little uncomfortable but the work-issued Samsung A51 almost unusable. It's very uncomfortable immediately.

 

[Expos of 1969]

Something is going on with Apple displays. I had no eye issues with my MBP 2013 which I had for seven years (recently sold it). Last week I got the new 2020 iPad 10.2 and I find it gives me eye strain / minor headache after limited use even with the brightness turned quite low. No problems at all with my Samsung Galaxy Tab A.

On the phone side, I had no problems with my original iPhone SE. Also no problems with my Samsung Galaxy S10e. However, I had to sell my new iPhone SE after a few days as it was really bothering me. So it does not seem to matter if it is OLED or LCD.

Bottom line: A mystery as to the cause but it makes me very reluctant to buy new Apple products especially as the local resellers don’t allow returns unless the item is broken or faulty.

 

[TDDM]

On the question of Phones. I use an XR every day with no issue.

That’s interesting, I’m really curious why some people are affected so differently. For example, I couldn’t use the Macbook pro 16” or newest Mac Mini without having my eyes feel strained after 10-20 mins, & also have trouble with the XR/11/iPad Air, iPad Pro 2018, and iPad 8th Gen.

Last week I got the new 2020 iPad 10.2 and I find it gives me eye strain / minor headache after limited use even with the brightness turned quite low. No problems at all with my Samsung Galaxy Tab A.

However, I had to sell my new iPhone SE after a few days as it was really bothering me.

My theory is that something changed with the A12 chip. If you have symptoms with those devices, you may want to try the iPhone 8+ & iPad 7th Gen and see if they’re easier on your eyes.

 

[Expos of 1969]

That’s interesting, I’m really curious why some people are affected so differently. For example, I couldn’t use the Macbook pro 16” or newest Mac Mini without having my eyes feel strained after 10-20 mins, & also have trouble with the XR/11/iPad Air, iPad Pro 2018, and iPad 8th Gen.

My theory is that something changed with the A12 chip. If you have symptoms with those devices, you may want to try the iPhone 8+ & iPad 7th Gen and see if they’re easier on your eyes.

Thanks for the info and suggestions. I have no interest in trying any other iPhone as my Samsung Galaxy S10e has been serving me very well for one year now and should continue to do so. My wife has a basic iPad purchased new in 2018 (6th gen?) and that causes me no eye strain or headaches so your theory about the A12 chip may be credible. End result: I will be steering clear of Apple products.

 

[TDDM]

Now that Big Sur is released, has it changed anyone’s experience with eye strain?

Also, anyone hopeful that the M1 Macbooks may be usable since it’s not using the Intel chips?

 

[thedocbwarren]

Now that Big Sur is released, has it changed anyone’s experience with eye strain?

Also, anyone hopeful that the M1 Macbooks may be usable since it’s not using the Intel chips?

I noticed since Big Sur no flicker on my external monitor. My panel still reports 30bit color but it's solid with noticeable (to me) banding vs fake flickering color.

Internal panel reports 24bit color now vs 30.

 

[Tbiliseli]

Hello everyone! I am so glad I found this thread! Otherwise, I was thinking I was going crazy! Well, my wife surely does!

Anyway, in 2018, I decided to get an Apple desktop, 21". Right from the start, I had a terrible strain in my eyes, around them, and an awful headache to the point when it took me days to recuperate. I returned it and thought it was a fluke. A year later, I killed my laptop by pouring water on it and got a new 2019 Macbook Air: still works fine. However, I've been thinking of getting a larger and more powerful machine. 2 weeks ago, I ordered a new 2020 21" Apple desktop - and voila! Exactly the same issue: eyes were sore to the tears and the headache that would not go away. I returned it and ordered 16" 2020 MackBook Pro: SSDD happened. I thought I was going nuts! with both, I tried to fiddle with brightness, display scaling, playing with frequency (between 60 and 48 MHz) - nothing worked! Bitter, I returned that one, too, and went back to watch my show "Mentalist" on my 13" MacBook air.

And - bingo! It literally struck me! I noticed WHY my eyes were hurting - at least, the symptoms. So, the series was all OK in my old one: the picture was nice and smooth. But then I recalled that it was very different in the new ones: both the 21" and 26" new ones. How I noticed it? It's a detective show, with lots of flashbacks - quite literally, flashes. And watching today on my 13" Air, I caught myself not flickering with pain when there were flashes in the show whereas in the new 21 and 16-ers I had to close my eyes when there were flashes. But even more so: the picture in the new ones was not smooth at all: it was as if it was composed with multiple teeny-tiny shifting like the actors did not move smoothly like humans do but their moves consisted of myriads of tiny yet visible moves.

Now, I am not a physicist but I am sure the ones who know electronics or video stuff would verbalize this better. All three computers have new Retina displays in them; it's just the newest ones Macbook Pro and iMac had this "screen shifting" (for the lack of a better word) and painful flashes going on.

Also, I read people here talking about this thing - dithering - that might have caused eye soreness happening in Intel drives. Does that mean that the very new Apple computers with their newest M processors would not have such a problem? I am still cautiously hopeful