16 inch MacBook Pro causes eye strain/pain while 15 inch Retina does not?

[baryon]

Just want to say it again, in case it gets buried, as I'm sure many don't suspect this could be their issue: I've been using my MBP16 for hours every day since November 2019, and using Vizol eye drops (specific to Europe but I'm sure any eye drops for chronic dry eyes for daily use will work) daily completely cured the issue for me. I have to say I wake up with dry eyes every morning, but otherwise I have no other symptoms.

That said, I've had dry eyes for a decade and yet I only have eye strain on the 16 inch MBP, and not on my previous 15 inch retina. So, there's something else going on for sure, but I don't know what it could be. Maybe dry eyes make your eyes more sensitive in general, which makes you more sensitive to PWM, and the MBP16 has PWM while the old ones didn't.

From what I've read, most pain receptors in your eyes are on the surface of your cornea and their dryness can cause all kinds of false alarms. These nerves are responsible for triggering tear production, sensitivity response to light (which is why blind people also squint in bright light) and general eye strain. It may not even feel like your eyes are dry, as it certainly didn't in my case. It's the same feeling like when you try on your friend's glasses and it feels terrible. I'd otherwise never suspect I have dry eyes if it wasn't for the 2 minutes of dryness I get when I wake up in the morning. So I highly recommend to give eye drops a try to see if it helps!

 

[Sanpete]

Not PWM, which has been measured for the 16" and found to be way out the range of potential concern, but it could still be some issue with the screen/graphics.

 

[Wolfgang Aston]

Just want to say it again, in case it gets buried, as I'm sure many don't suspect this could be their issue: I've been using my MBP16 for hours every day since November 2019, and using Vizol eye drops (specific to Europe but I'm sure any eye drops for chronic dry eyes for daily use will work) daily completely cured the issue for me. I have to say I wake up with dry eyes every morning, but otherwise I have no other symptoms.

That said, I've had dry eyes for a decade and yet I only have eye strain on the 16 inch MBP, and not on my previous 15 inch retina. So, there's something else going on for sure, but I don't know what it could be. Maybe dry eyes make your eyes more sensitive in general, which makes you more sensitive to PWM, and the MBP16 has PWM while the old ones didn't.

From what I've read, most pain receptors in your eyes are on the surface of your cornea and their dryness can cause all kinds of false alarms. These nerves are responsible for triggering tear production, sensitivity response to light (which is why blind people also squint in bright light) and general eye strain. It may not even feel like your eyes are dry, as it certainly didn't in my case. It's the same feeling like when you try on your friend's glasses and it feels terrible. I'd otherwise never suspect I have dry eyes if it wasn't for the 2 minutes of dryness I get when I wake up in the morning. So I highly recommend to give eye drops a try to see if it helps!

 

[andrey16]

The screenshots presented are not related to the thread's topic. They demonstrate a slow response time of the display that makes an impact on dynamic scenes like games and videos. As @macretinahurts and I confirmed we don't have any issues with games or videos

When I program or do text-intensive work, I can easily get eye strain. But it is better for me when I watch video or play game. It is because the screen is difficult to be focused on. When watch video etc., my eyes don't really need to focus to small fonts.

What we're discussing here is issues during watching a static text.

 

[baryon]

An explanation about the screenshots? I assume these are during motion, which is a different issue altogether. The eye strain effect is present even when looking at static images.

 

[sharik2009]

No eye strain here after 3 weeks!

 

[recoil80]

I use it in clamshell mode most of the time, but when I use it as a laptop the display is fine, it looks like my old 15".
I only had one weird issue a couple of days ago, the display tint kept turning to red while I was in Chrome and to get it back to normal I had to switch off and on TrueTone in settings.
This morning I've been working for 3 hours and it never happened.
When it happened I was in the middle of exporting a video from iMovie and the Mac was very hot, but I'm not sure this is the cause.

 

[garrel]

No eye strain here after 3 weeks!

We were all shaking with apprehension. Thanks for the update.

edit: if you were experimenting symptoms in the first weeks, then sorry. If not... It's not something that comes up after a while or a known issue. If you do, you suffer immediately.

 

[andrey16]

An explanation about the screenshots? I assume these are during motion, which is a different issue altogether. The eye strain effect is present even when looking at static images.

Just found there is a whole 30-pages thread on the issue that the screenshots demonstrate:

After 28 pages and a few months of debate the TLDR is: this is Apple’s slowest response time screen seen in a MacBook Pro ever.

It's about slow response time of the MBP 16'' display and this is a tech spec. I'm completely ok with this and I knew this from many reviews before buying the MBP 16''. I'm not considering it as a reason to return the unit.

As for the eye strain and "hard to focus on static text" issues - it's more critical for me. After 2 weeks I still have problems focusing comparing with older MBP models. Eye drops help to relax the eye strain but are not making reading a text smooth and comfortable - still hard to focus on text.

Rumors are that Apple will introduce a new display tech in the next MacBooks (14'' Pro maybe) referenced as mini-LED.
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No eye strain here after 3 weeks!

Thanks for the update.
Just to clarify. You had an eye strain in the beginning and it's gone after 3 weeks? I.e. it took 3 weeks for your eyes to adapt?
What MBP 16'' config do you have i7-based or i9-based?

 

[baryon]

Just found there is a whole 30-pages thread on the issue that the screenshots demonstrate:



It's about slow response time of the MBP 16'' display and this is a tech spec. I'm completely ok with this and I knew this from many reviews before buying the MBP 16''. I'm not considering it as a reason to return the unit.

As for the eye strain and "hard to focus on static text" issues - it's more critical for me. After 2 weeks I still have problems focusing comparing with older MBP models. Eye drops help to relax the eye strain but are not making reading a text smooth and comfortable - still hard to focus on text.

Rumors are that Apple will introduce a new display tech in the next MacBooks (14'' Pro maybe) referenced as mini-LED.
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Thanks for the update.
Just to clarify. You had an eye strain in the beginning and it's gone after 3 weeks? I.e. it took 3 weeks for your eyes to adapt?
What MBP 16'' config do you have i7-based or i9-based?

Yeah the response time of the 16 inch is definitely, noticeably slow. Scrolling white text on black leaves streaks across the screen. Don't know why they didn't just keep the previous tech, which was better. At least the 16 inch doesn't seem to be prone to ghosting, like the first batch of Retinas were... but what was wrong with the last gen retinas? Their screens were perfect.

 

[Sanpete]

Yeah the response time of the 16 inch is definitely, noticeably slow. Scrolling white text on black leaves streaks across the screen. Don't know why they didn't just keep the previous tech, which was better. At least the 16 inch doesn't seem to be prone to ghosting, like the first batch of Retinas were... but what was wrong with the last gen retinas? Their screens were perfect.

If you mean the screens pre-2016, they weren't as bright and had a more limited color gamut. And they were slow too, though not quite as much.

 

[andrey16]

Have exactly same issue with eye strain. Was trying to adapt (struggling/tuning) for two weeks and now decided to return MBP16. No eye issues currently with MBP2014 and MBP2017.

I'm able to feel the difference on MBP16 when switching between integrated Intel and AMD. With AMD it's slightly better for eyes but doesn't solve the problem. With Intel it's completely terrible and unusable. Tried different workarounds. gSwitch + 100% brightness + Gamma Control to compensate the brightness + turn off TrueTone + turn off auto brightness does help. But buttery goes away very rapidly.

After replacement everything is ok. The screen is as comfortable as with MBP2014 or MBP2017. And TrueTone now gives even more comfort. My story ended but I learned soo much information about PWM, temporal dithering, 10-bit colour simulation, etc. and I discovered and tested so many nice tools like gfxCardStatus/GammaControl/SwitchResX ))).

 

[MrGimper]

I wonder if there are a number of panel manufacturers as before, and how we can tell which panel our machine has?

 

[andrey16]

I wonder if there are a number of panel manufacturers as before, and how we can tell which panel our machine has?

Yep, this is interesting question. It might be this was just a panel defect or it might be it was a different manufacturer. Who knows.

I asked earlier in the thread what exact config i7 or i9 all these guys with sensitive eyes are owning. But no replies.

I don't want to write my observation because it might lead to wrong conclusions, but I replaced my unit from MBP16'' i7 config to i9 config. For now it's just a coincidence. It's still interesting to know how often this "defect" or this panel manufacturer appears in both configs that affects people with sensitive eyes.

Some people reported they continued exchanging older MBP model units several times until they got flicker-free/acceptable version. Others reported different MBP configs had display panels from different manufacturers. Even keyboard had slight difference on the first Touch Bar versions depending on CPU config.

Probably MBP 16'' i7 AMD 5300 and MBP 16'' i9 AMD 5500 configs have different display panel manufacturers as well.

Mine one is MBP 16'' i7 AMD 5300. Would like to know other's configs from who's having the eye strain.

 

[MrGimper]

Yep, this is interesting question. It might be this was just a panel defect or it might be it was a different manufacturer. Who knows.

I asked earlier in the thread what exact config i7 or i9 all these guys with sensitive eyes are owning. But no replies.

I don't want to write my observation because it might lead to wrong conclusions, but I replaced my unit from MBP16'' i7 config to i9 config. For now it's just a coincidence. It's still interesting to know how often this "defect" or this panel manufacturer appears in both configs that affects people with sensitive eyes.

I consider myself to have sensitive eyes.... I've replaced several ipads and iphones because I've seen the faint flicker of the screen when others haven't. Also the "scanlines" or interlace of such screens. I get no issues with my i9 2.3/64GB/2TB/8GB machine

 

[Znufkin]

...Wow! I am happy (...or sad?) that I found this thread!

I read the whole thread shifting between my two MBP:s late-2012 and new Dec 2019 16-inch model.

I have been feeling this issue since I switched to this computer in January:

Symptoms:
- Everything as OP and other commenters wrote, including the feeling as if I am staring into the sun: it's an odd, pressured feeling which I feel even when the brightness is set down and I have turned all my living room lights on. The feeling is more intense at night, or on cloudy days.
- Nausea, dizziness, difficult to focus. I have to stare in and out of the screen every few seconds.
- Tired, droopy eyes. Sleep helps, but it starts as soon as I am back on the laptop.
- More cluster headaches and migraines than I have had in years.
- A similar dizziness and nausea that I sometimes get from office halogen lights
- Also a very peculiar symptom: my sinuses tingle when at the 16" inch! ..Have you ever heard that staring into the sun can cause one to sneeze? Well, I am one of those who can sneeze when staring at bright light, it's a known issue. Oddly enough, whenever using the MBP 16" all my sinuses are tingling. I'm not sure if I do in fact sneeze more than usual, but it's this odd tingle which is there.
- Also, my chronic tinnitus has become drastically worse over the past months. Louder, more constant, more exhausting. I didn't associate it (or the sinuses) to my eye strain, until I read somewhere that sinuses, tinnitus, eyes are all connected. Someone recommended me to even see the dentist and see if a hidden wisdom tooth might be causing the eye strain and the tinnitus: but no, there is no such underlying issue.

I suffer from pre-existing issue of dry eyes, as well as generally dry nose and throat. But as annoying as these problems have always been for me, they were never associated with using a computer! Like some commenters here, I use computers day and night, at work and free-time, and I use it for extensive reading, writing, photo editing, etc. I have never, ever had an issue staring at monitors for day in and out. I have been a MBP user for 10+ years.

..And before anyone asks: yes, I take breaks. I exercise, go for walks, stretch, sleep, etc. etc. Nothing has changed in my habits. And while I am aging (I'm mid-30s), I find it a really odd coincidence that my eyes would have deteriorated so quickly, and exactly when I switched to MBP 16".

On my 16" MBP, I have tried switching between True Tone, resolution, night switch, hue. I have adjusted the windows, and also keep my desktop background picture (a darker shade of landscape) around the edges, as that seems to help.

The only thing that seems to really help for me, is by switching back to my old MBP. My symptoms vanished straight away. I noticed this some time ago, so I started using my old MBP for concentrated reading.. But I only started to google this problem today: and when I found this thread, voila...
---
MBP 16" was a huge investment for me. It was also a complicated transitioning, as I spent weeks configuring the laptop perfectly, installing software, security systems etc. But I am now beginning to see that there is probably no other option for me than to i) try the eye drops recommended here; ii) use my old MBP more and maybe switch fully back to it; and iii) consider switching away from Apple and back to Windows (which I haven't used since 2010).
...Also, it helps to work in a bright room with natural light (not halogen), so I suggest everyone to try working next to a window during daytime!

Never realised using computers could become an issue for me that takes such a toll... It's a stressful realisation, that my livelihood and lifestyle completely depend on my eyeballs being able to stare at the monitor for hours.

Will my eyes get permanently damaged? Will my eyesight gradually begin to deteriorate? A worrying thought that shouldn't be laughed at.

Try to hang on guys, and let's keep this thread alive!
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By the way I forgot to add something I noticed as I was troubleshooting this: if I turn down the Refresh Rate in Display settings, down to 47,95 from 60HZ, the problem seems to get a bit better. It's still there, but it's better.

 

[pragmaLT]

By the way I forgot to add something I noticed as I was troubleshooting this: if I turn down the Refresh Rate in Display settings, down to 47,95 from 60HZ, the problem seems to get a bit better. It's still there, but it's better.

I also had this "hard to focus" problem with the 16 inch display, and also found mild relief from using the lowest refresh rate.

Given that the selectable refresh rate is the only true new feature of the 16" display over previous models, I initially speculated that Apple's implementation of the variable refresh rate is what's causing the problems in certain visually sensitive individuals. However, the problem persists even when using an external monitor, which may indicate dithering at the video card level.

The display, while capable of producing "bright" images, also simultaneously appears to have this strange "dimness" or "not 100% there" quality to it. I returned my MBP16" and went back to the 2015. Just not worth the agony.

 

[tivoboy]

I consider myself to have sensitive eyes.... I've replaced several ipads and iphones because I've seen the faint flicker of the screen when others haven't. Also the "scanlines" or interlace of such screens. I get no issues with my i9 2.3/64GB/2TB/8GB machine

Must be the 2TB ;-)

 

[Grohowiak]

So far so good for me. About 5 hours of continuous work on day 1 with the 6 core i7.
Was kinda worried about it reading this thread.

 

[MrGimper]

Must be the 2TB ;-)

And the 64GB ;-)

 

[son2018]

Just want to say it again, in case it gets buried, as I'm sure many don't suspect this could be their issue: I've been using my MBP16 for hours every day since November 2019, and using Vizol eye drops (specific to Europe but I'm sure any eye drops for chronic dry eyes for daily use will work) daily completely cured the issue for me. I have to say I wake up with dry eyes every morning, but otherwise I have no other symptoms.

That said, I've had dry eyes for a decade and yet I only have eye strain on the 16 inch MBP, and not on my previous 15 inch retina. So, there's something else going on for sure, but I don't know what it could be. Maybe dry eyes make your eyes more sensitive in general, which makes you more sensitive to PWM, and the MBP16 has PWM while the old ones didn't.

From what I've read, most pain receptors in your eyes are on the surface of your cornea and their dryness can cause all kinds of false alarms. These nerves are responsible for triggering tear production, sensitivity response to light (which is why blind people also squint in bright light) and general eye strain. It may not even feel like your eyes are dry, as it certainly didn't in my case. It's the same feeling like when you try on your friend's glasses and it feels terrible. I'd otherwise never suspect I have dry eyes if it wasn't for the 2 minutes of dryness I get when I wake up in the morning. So I highly recommend to give eye drops a try to see if it helps!

What were your final settings? True tone=off, Auto brightness= off, etc?

 

[hungryghosty]

Has anyone who's found this issue with the 16" model tried out the new 13" 2020 Macbook Pro as I bought one last week.

I've returned the 13" 2020 MBP as I found very similar issues to what others are describing with eye strain. I found it difficult to focus on text in particular. I kept looking at text on a page and found that text surrounding what I was focussing on was shaking/shimmering. I kept catching sight of flicker on the screen as well regardless of whether true-tone, auto brightness, etc was enabled and regardless of the brightness level.

My 12" 2016 Macbook doesn't exhibit the same issue so I've gone back to it for now. I think I'll head down to my local Apple Store once they re-open for a look at the models there. It could be that I had a faulty panel on my new 13" MBP but if definitely sounds similar to what others have described on the 16". I'd like to know for sure whether it's my eyesight or there was an issue with the unit I had.

 

[Grohowiak]

Has anyone who's found this issue with the 16" model tried out the new 13" 2020 Macbook Pro as I bought one last week.

I've returned the 13" 2020 MBP as I found very similar issues to what others are describing with eye strain. I found it difficult to focus on text in particular. I kept looking at text on a page and found that text surrounding what I was focussing on was shaking/shimmering. I kept catching sight of flicker on the screen as well regardless of whether true-tone, auto brightness, etc was enabled and regardless of the brightness level.

My 12" 2016 Macbook doesn't exhibit the same issue so I've gone back to it for now. I think I'll head down to my local Apple Store once they re-open for a look at the models there. It could be that I had a faulty panel on my new 13" MBP but if definitely sounds similar to what others have described on the 16". I'd like to know for sure whether it's my eyesight or there was an issue with the unit I had.

According to the article below the 16":
"...the MacBook Pro 16 flickers consistently at 131 kHz. While this could theoretically cause issues for those who are PWM sensitive, the frequency should be high enough not to affect most people's eyes. In short, the MacBook Pro 16 should not cause headaches or eyestrain after prolonged use. .."

I have no idea about current 13" and I'm too lazy to look for similar tests of older models but if anybody knows then please let us know.
I wonder if this number is similar or differs greatly in comparison.

Notebookcheck 16" Review

 

[hungryghosty]

I believe the new 13" one does use PWM but again the claims are it's so high that it isn't noticeable? I don't know if it's PWM which is the culprit, the anti-glare coating, somekind of dithering algorithm or the panel itself.

I guess I need to head down to an Apple store (when they re-open after the pandemic lockdown) and check out some of the laptops there to see if I experience the same issue on them. That way I'll know if it was a problem with the unit I had or if it's my eyesight!

If it is my eyesight then I guess I'll have to wait for the switch to mini-LED to see if that resolves/alleviates the problem......or change to a Windows laptop.....SHUDDER! 😭

 

[baryon]

What were your final settings? True tone=off, Auto brightness= off, etc?

I turned true tone off, but left auto brightness on. I also often turn on night shift at night if I'm certain I won't be doing any color-related work that night. I keep using the eye drops and things are still good!