16-Inch MacBook Pro With All-New Design Expected in 2019, 13-Inch Model May Gain 32GB RAM

[Falhófnir]

Yes, Apple expressly forbids installation of macOS on non-Apple hardware; if they didn’t I could run a commercial business doing just that. But they simultaneously look the other way from anyone who creates a hackintosh for their own personal use. They accept the hackintosh community and allow them to do their thing wholly unrestrained. If I were an attorney I may not agree that this demonstrates tacit consent, but that’s really a side issue.

The fact is Apple is explicitly allowing hackintoshes to exist. And you mis-read my call for a stronger argument. Clearly I said there’s no evidence Apple is interested in taking away your hackintosh. You’ve provided absolutely no argument to the contrary, weak or otherwise.

Me aside, if you want to convince anyone that Apple cares enough about hackintoshes to bother doing anything whatsoever to kill them, you’re going to have to come up with some type of argument to back that statement up. Just saying, “well they could, once they obsolete the 2017 MacBook Air and the current Mac Pro, 12” MacBook and iMacs many years from now” is not at all convincing. Especially given the fact they could kill the hackintosh now if they so chose.

I'm pretty sure the only reason they don't actively prevent hackintoshing is that going around suing/ prosecuting potential customers would generate bad will that they could do without. Once they can make T2 or later required for secure boot, they'll be able to stop it without resorting to litigation.

 

[PickUrPoison]

I'm pretty sure the only reason they don't actively prevent hackintoshing is that going around suing/ prosecuting potential customers would generate bad will that they could do without. Once they can make T2 or later required for secure boot, they'll be able to stop it without resorting to litigation.

I’m sure bad press is a factor, along with the fact that a lot of hackintoshers also own legit Macs or other Apple products. But if it were really something Apple cared much about, it wouldn’t take a T2 to lock down MacOS.

People claiming the T2 is Apple finally caring about hackintoshes is the equivalent of a conspiracy theory, with varying levels of paranoia depending on the person. “They’re coming for my hackintosh, dude, don’t you get it? Open your eyes, it’s coming, are you blind?” lol

But in any case it’s likely the hackintosh community could work around the T2 requirement. It’s been discussed at length on insanelymac if you’re interested. Of course a complete transition to ARM would end the hackintosh, maybe by 2030 or so.

 

[jameslmoser]

Not making any excuses. Just stating the rationale for embracing the future. It's never painless. It's not going to be convenient, but it's a move in the right direction.



Not true. All those plugs I mentioned aren't found on most laptops. Those alternate plugs are typically found on peripheral devices whose other end is a USB-A port. USB-A being ubiquitous doesn't mean it's better. If ubiquity determined what was best, we'd still be watching movies on VHS tapes.



I think you may have missed what I meant. I'm pretty sure that I have even more gadgets than you do. I have a whole box of cables that are different variants of USB-A / USB-B plugs and at times I have to carry extra cables just so I can connect to different devices. People complain about dongles and adapters but don't complain that USB-A can't really connect to anything else without either adapters or the exact right version of the cable with a USB-A male plug on the "computer" end and one of a number of other plugs on the peripheral end.

I suspect they don't complain because this inconvenience is already baked in and they already have different cables for different devices. The status quo locks you into that reality. USB-C is a change away from needing a whole box of different cables for different situation to needing just one cable for anything.

Of course one cable to rule them all is not where we're at right now, and the vast ocean of legacy devices out there probably means it'll be a long time before we reach one cable paradise, but at least we're moving in the right direction.

Yeah, upgrading can be painful, especially when you completely drop what came before it. That is why you provide both ports! I'm not arguing they shouldn't have used USB-C, I'm saying that why Apple themselves still sell their devices that use USB-A, including their main money maker, they shouldn't have dropped them off their notebook computers!
[doublepost=1551664821][/doublepost]I didn't buy Apple's latest notebooks because of the lack of USB-A, horrible keyboard, and stupid touch bar... I bought a Surface Book. It has usb-a and usb-c! I also love the keyboard. I am clearly not the only one who thinks Apple's arrogant ways and stupid decisions is a problem and have moved on. I still have macs but sometimes I wonder why I'm holding on to them... they are great machines because they were made when Apple cared about their computers... but they are dated now and I'm not sure I see a future for me on their platform.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother still coming to MacRumors... =)

 

[smirking]

Yeah, upgrading can be painful, especially when you completely drop what came before it.

I know people hate Apple for doing that, but that's the way to do it. People and manufacturers are risk averse and resistant to change. Another reason why they may have done that is because you can adapt any of the USB standards to a USB-C port. My 2016 MBP has 4 USB-C ports that are capable of up to 40Gbps and are backward compatible with anything USB with the help of an adapter. The same is not true the other way around. A USB-A port as it exists today is unable to provide power to your laptop, will never be able to carry a video signal, and maxes out at 10Gbps if they're USB 3.1 ports or 5Gbps if they're USB 3.0 ports.

Converting anything to USB-C is so cheap and trivial. It only takes $1 per plug to rectify that situation.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pack-USB...Type-C-to-A-Compatible-Converter/312248761234

Why intentionally shop for a computer that uses yesterday's standards when it literally only takes a few dollars to make one using tomorrow's standards backward compatible?

 

[ipponrg]

I know people hate Apple for doing that, but that's the way to do it. People and manufacturers are risk averse and resistant to change. Another reason why they may have done that is because you can adapt any of the USB standards to a USB-C port. My 2016 MBP has 4 USB-C ports that are capable of up to 40Gbps and are backward compatible with anything USB with the help of an adapter. The same is not true the other way around. A USB-A port as it exists today is unable to provide power to your laptop, will never be able to carry a video signal, and maxes out at 10Gbps if they're USB 3.1 ports or 5Gbps if they're USB 3.0 ports.

Converting anything to USB-C is so cheap and trivial. It only takes $1 per plug to rectify that situation.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pack-USB...Type-C-to-A-Compatible-Converter/312248761234

Why intentionally shop for a computer that uses yesterday's standards when it literally only takes a few dollars to make one using tomorrow's standards backward compatible?

What was yesterday’s standards is still today’s standards btw. USB-C is slowly creeping forward, but USB-A is still fairly ubiquitous.

I also think you are looking too much at a cost perspective vs other factors such as convenience and a trend that isn’t fully trending yet

 

[smirking]

I also think you are looking too much at a cost perspective vs other factors such as convenience and a trend that isn’t fully trending yet

Yeah, but it costs $1 to convert any USB-A device to a USB-C device. The inconvenience is miniscule.
USB-C is fully backward compatible. Nobody should be asking for USB-A ports. SD Card, Magsafe, HDMI, and other ports? Sure... there's a case for those, but USB-A? No, not when a measly $1 nullifies the convenience factor.

Companies will be certainly happy to give you USB-A ports if it means you'll buy their laptop instead of someone else's, but that's a marketing rationale and not an engineering and product design rationale.

The USB-C trend may not be fully here yet, but a lot of today's laptops will still be in use 5 to 10 years from now. If you're lucky enough to own one of those long lived computers, you'll be kicking yourself if you chose one that embraced a superceded specification.

 

[Falhófnir]

I’m sure bad press is a factor, along with the fact that a lot of hackintoshers also own legit Macs or other Apple products. But if it were really something Apple cared much about, it wouldn’t take a T2 to lock down MacOS.

People claiming the T2 is Apple finally caring about hackintoshes is the equivalent of a conspiracy theory, with varying levels of paranoia depending on the person. “They’re coming for my hackintosh, dude, don’t you get it? Open your eyes, it’s coming, are you blind?” lol

But in any case it’s likely the hackintosh community could work around the T2 requirement. It’s been discussed at length on insanelymac if you’re interested. Of course a complete transition to ARM would end the hackintosh, maybe by 2030 or so.

No I don’t think they’ve developed T2 to deal with hacking, I think they’ve developed it as a security feature that gives them more control - that it will more or less make building a hackintosh a lot more difficult, if not impossible is a happy side effect for them. I can’t imagine, outside of the negative publicity, that actually going after people would be a hugely practical way of ending the practice anyway. How do they find them anyway, and how much of a drain on the resources would it be to do anything about it? This is a way of making it impractical without having to actually put any effort into stopping it.

 

[PickUrPoison]

No I don’t think they’ve developed T2 to deal with hacking, I think they’ve developed it as a security feature that gives them more control - that it will more or less make building a hackintosh a lot more difficult, if not impossible is a happy side effect for them. I can’t imagine, outside of the negative publicity, that actually going after people would be a hugely practical way of ending the practice anyway. How do they find them anyway, and how much of a drain on the resources would it be to do anything about it? This is a way of making it impractical without having to actually put any effort into stopping it.

You’re assuming the T2 couldn’t be worked around. Those in the hackintosh development community don’t seem to think that would be the case. But if you think Apple’s gonna pull the plug, by all means start your 5 to 10 year RIP-hackintosh countdown clock.

If people want to be anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, climate change-deniers or T2-gonna-kill-my-hackintoshers, certainly no argument will be able to overcome their preferred belief system.

 

[Falhófnir]

You’re assuming the T2 couldn’t be worked around. Those in the hackintosh development community don’t seem to think that would be the case. But if you think Apple’s gonna pull the plug, by all means start your 5 to 10 year RIP-hackintosh countdown clock.

If people want to be anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, climate change-deniers or T2-gonna-kill-my-hackintoshers, certainly no argument will be able to overcome their preferred belief system.

Haha, chill dude, I'm simply pointing out Apple probably don't like hackintoshing, and this will probably end up being another large obstacle at the very least to take it off the table but for the most hardcore devotees that will look to dig in and find ways of circumventing it. Again, it's not about going out and rounding up all the hackintoshers and burning them at the stake, it's about slowly making it more difficult to do, less practical, more involved, appealing to fewer people. Having to get around a secure boot feature isn't going to be a simple fix, even if it's possible.

 

[StellarVixen]

One of the last x86 Macs, maybe?


Is it OK to buy now? What if we get dumped later, like PPC users when Snow Leopard came out?


You cannot buy ~3000 device to use it for 2-3 years. At least I can't.

 

[Falhófnir]

One of the last x86 Macs, maybe?


Is it OK to buy now? What if we get dumped later, like PPC users when Snow Leopard came out?


You cannot buy ~3000 device to use it for 2-3 years. At least I can't.

Yeah this is definitely something anyone wishing to buy needs to think about. Many seem to think the transition will have a long tail (I think we will see depending on what happens with the Mac Pro) but if Apple comes out with an ARM MacBook and makes it clear it's the future, a lot of software developers are going to shift the lions share of their attention to developing for that platform, or porting their software to it. So it might not matter even if there is another 7 years of MacOS support in x86 if developers begin neglecting it increasingly over the coming months and years.

 

[ipponrg]

Yeah, but it costs $1 to convert any USB-A device to a USB-C device. The inconvenience is miniscule.
USB-C is fully backward compatible. Nobody should be asking for USB-A ports. SD Card, Magsafe, HDMI, and other ports? Sure... there's a case for those, but USB-A? No, not when a measly $1 nullifies the convenience factor.

You’re still focused on cost which is only part of the issue. I’d fathom most don’t buy cables from EBay and would go Amazon or Monoprice. So you’re looking at 5-10$ on top of having to carry additional cables with you. If you forget the adapter while traveling, then that inconvenience far outweighs everything else as now you have to hope there is a local store that sells the adapter.

In addition the usb c dock is the industry’s answer to the problem the 2016+ MBP brought. It kinda shows you that it proposed a solution that actually created a problem. Do you remember people funding the HyperC dock? The docks literally are screaming that 4 USB-C ports are superfluous.

 

[jameslmoser]

I know people hate Apple for doing that, but that's the way to do it.

Thats your opinion. As I said, MS didn't do that and I choose them. Neither did almost every other manufacturer that wasn't trying to copy Apple.

You also keep conveniently ignoring the fact that APPLE themselves still sell everything with USB-A. What accessory product do they sell that is USB-C thats is not an adaptor or cable???

 

[MrUNIMOG]

Thats your opinion. As I said, MS didn't do that and I choose them. Neither did almost every other manufacturer that wasn't trying to copy Apple.

You also keep conveniently ignoring the fact that APPLE themselves still sell everything with USB-A. What accessory product do they sell that is USB-C thats is not an adaptor or cable???

Well, and who do you have to thank for the fact that you already have a wide range of USB-C accessories to choose from, or that companies like MS are finally implementing at least one Type C port in their devices?

I'll give you a hint, it's the company that went all-in on Type C for their popular line of pro notebooks over 2 years ago.

You also keep conveniently ignoring the fact that APPLE themselves still sell everything with USB-A. What accessory product do they sell that is USB-C thats is not an adaptor or cable???

It really isn't that hard to see the reason:
Most iPhone or even iPad buyers don't own a Mac, let alone a recent one. They typically own a PC with USB-A. There's no (spec-compliant) adapters to plug a Type C cable into a Type A port. The other way round there is.

iPhones, (non-Pro) iPads and other accessories shipping with Lightning to USB-C cable and a USB-C power brick is just a matter of time though. I'd prefer that happening sooner than later, but I could see why Apple might not yet want to make that step this year. By 2020, market penetration of Type C equipped Macs, PCs and power outlets should be high enough to justify making that change.

 

[buckwheet]

...However, the longer they take, the more likely fewer people are going to wait for it, which means the less money they are going to make on it, which means its probably going to be another 4 or 5 years before they update it again if they even bother. It doesn't seem like there is much of a future for it.

Well, I think they're kinda past the point of making customer retention the big point. They're more likely thinking in terms of winning customers back (and, of course, getting new ones), in which case—while I personally agree that they could just make a simple tower box—they will likely want to make something innovative and competitive. For what it's worth, I think they learned their lesson with the 2013 Mac Pro. And they must know, by this point, what the community actually needs. So we can only hope... Personally, I think it's worth at least giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'm hoping the same for these rumoured MacBook Pros; they know what users need, so I have to assume they'll at least attempt to provide it...

 

[smirking]

You’re still focused on cost which is only part of the issue.

The reason why I bring it up is because it is so inexpensive to make your legacy devices compatible with new ports that there's nobody to blame if you're not willing to take that one simple step. I'm baffled that people are so resistant to change that they'd rather spend a greater amount of energy complaining and seeking alternative devices rather than buying some $1 adapters.

In addition the usb c dock is the industry’s answer to the problem the 2016+ MBP brought. It kinda shows you that it proposed a solution that actually created a problem.

Those hubs are a trend and don't really prove that USB-C was a mistake. Every new form factor launches a whole slew of new products and the greatest need those ports speak to are people's need for an SD Card slot, HDMI, and Ethernet. I think those are very valid pain points and complaints about losing those ports I completely understand. It's the "I'm not giving up my USB-A" ports that I'm calling out as being poor in logic.

Besides, the need for docks and USB expansion is nothing new. People are acting like USB-C created the dock industry. Who are all these people who never needed more than 2 USB-A ports? The first device I retired when I got my 2016 MBP was a powered 8 port USB 3.0 hub (that never worked right). Between my LG 5K and my MBP, I finally had enough USB ports for the first time since I owned a cMP.
[doublepost=1551722857][/doublepost]

Thats your opinion. As I said, MS didn't do that and I choose them. Neither did almost every other manufacturer that wasn't trying to copy Apple.

Some of my work gives me some insight into supply chains. It may not be obvious on the surface, but based on the tight supply of some components, USB-C is being widely embraced. You'll be seeing a lot more of it. There were shortages of some components that are needed for USB-C cables last year.

Also, as @MrUNIMOG mentioned, just browse the product lineups of other makers and you're already seeing more and more USB-C plugs. Some even did exactly what Apple did and have only USB-C plugs.

You also keep conveniently ignoring the fact that APPLE themselves still sell everything with USB-A. What accessory product do they sell that is USB-C thats is not an adaptor or cable???

And that's because even if every single manufacturer phased out USB-A ports today, we'd still have a vast ocean of legacy devices that only have that port. I again bring up those $1 adapters. That cute little $1 adapter ensures that laptops of all vintages will be able to use a device if the device is made with USB-A as the plug.

This may may sound like a case for sticking with USB-A, but it's not because the plugs and the ports are two different stories. USB-A ports have limited compatibility, but USB-A plugs have maximum compatibility.

It's the other way around for USB-C. The ports have maximum compatibility, but the plugs have limited compatibility. And that's why it's smarter to buy a USB-C laptop but adapt your USB-A devices. It's all about trying to get maximum future proofing. USB-A ports may be convenient today, but they will not be in the future because of the things they can't do.

 

[buckwheet]

Thats your opinion. As I said, MS didn't do that and I choose them. Neither did almost every other manufacturer that wasn't trying to copy Apple.

You also keep conveniently ignoring the fact that APPLE themselves still sell everything with USB-A. What accessory product do they sell that is USB-C thats is not an adaptor or cable???

Hopefully USB 4.0 will settle all this... Though superior, USB-C is still way too rare, and I'm sure the main reason is licensing/cost.

 

[smirking]

Hopefully USB 4.0 will settle all this... Though superior, USB-C is still way too rare, and I'm sure the main reason is licensing/cost.

I think you actually mean Thunderbolt 3 and not USB-C. USB-C is just the shape of the plug. Most USB-C cables are more correctly stated to be 10Gbps USB 3.1 cables with USB-C plugs. Thunderbolt 3 cables are a special kind of USB-C cable that can carry up to 40Gbps. Thunderbolt 3 is royalty.

It's just going to take time. Until then, you'll need adapters.

 

[buckwheet]

I think you actually mean Thunderbolt 3 and not USB-C. USB-C is just the shape of the plug. Most USB-C cables are more correctly stated to be 10Gbps USB 3.1 cables with USB-C plugs. Thunderbolt 3 cables are a special kind of USB-C cable that can carry up to 40Gbps. Thunderbolt 3 is royalty.

It's just going to take time. Until then, you'll need adapters.

Well, I mean this: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/03/04/usb4-converges-usb-and-thunderbolt-3/

In practical terms; not having a plug that is borderline useless without an adapter (or without spending a ****ing fortune).

 

[jameslmoser]

It's just going to take time. Until then, you'll need adapters.

Or buy a non-apple laptop...

 

[smirking]

Well, I mean this: https://www.macrumors.com/2019/03/04/usb4-converges-usb-and-thunderbolt-3/

Oh, gotcha. Interesting... Intel was supposed to make it royalty free last year. I guess it didn't happen on schedule.

Yeah, maybe what they talk about in that article will help. The current naming system is just too confusing and the royalties have to go.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Haha, chill dude, I'm simply pointing out Apple probably don't like hackintoshing, and this will probably end up being another large obstacle at the very least to take it off the table but for the most hardcore devotees that will look to dig in and find ways of circumventing it. Again, it's not about going out and rounding up all the hackintoshers and burning them at the stake, it's about slowly making it more difficult to do, less practical, more involved, appealing to fewer people. Having to get around a secure boot feature isn't going to be a simple fix, even if it's possible.

Oh I’m chill. But there’s simply no evidence that Apple cares at all about someone building a hackintosh. They could have included a custom ASIC or an encrypted boot PROM if they had ever cared.

To think they’re suddenly going to slam the door after upwards of twenty years just doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Besides, if they really are switching to their own CPU, then it’s game over anyway.

 

[smirking]

Or buy a non-apple laptop...

Buy whatever you want. What I've been saying has nothing to do with platform.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Or buy a non-apple laptop...

Not an option for those who want to run macOS (or macOS plus Windows and/or Linux).

 

[jameslmoser]

I know people hate Apple for doing that, but that's the way to do it.

Buy whatever you want. What I've been saying has nothing to do with platform.

Yeah, it does.