2008 MLB Season

[aloofman]

Alex Cora was a great defensive second baseman when he was with the Dodgers. Cora-Izturis was probably one of the best middle infields I've ever seen, not that any of you guys would have noticed. Maybe he just got slow after he went to the Red Sox.

It really was a great double-play combo. I think it was heightened by the fact that the two of them were coincidentally at the height of their hitting powers, something that we had no way of knowing at the time. Many people figured Izturis would become a better contact hitter over time, but it just hasn't happened.

As great as their defense was back in the day, most of the time they weren't that much greater with the glove to make up for the holes they created in the lineup. The fact is that fielding is a smaller part of a player's value than hitting is. As much as I liked Cesar Izturis, trading him for a half-season of Greg Maddux turned out to be a good move.

 

[IJ Reilly]

It really was a great double-play combo. I think it was heightened by the fact that the two of them were coincidentally at the height of their hitting powers, something that we had no way of knowing at the time. Many people figured Izturis would become a better contact hitter over time, but it just hasn't happened.

As great as their defense was back in the day, most of the time they weren't that much greater with the glove to make up for the holes they created in the lineup. The fact is that fielding is a smaller part of a player's value than hitting is. As much as I liked Cesar Izturis, trading him for a half-season of Greg Maddux turned out to be a good move.

The statistical value of defense is harder to tally and therefore generally an underrated skill IMO. Every time the defense make a good play to get an out, that's a potential run saved. On the other side of the coin, teams that make a lot of errors don't often get very far, even if they've got a lot of whack.

Cora is around a .250 career hitter, which isn't great, but is hardly an embarrassment either. Ironically he's currently batting above his career average with Boston, but Red Sox fans always seem to be moaning "what have you done for me in the last five minutes?" A team could do a lot worse for a utility infielder than Alex Cora. The Dodgers might want him back, if the Boston fans really hate him so much.

 

[aloofman]

The statistical value of defense is harder to tally and therefore generally an underrated skill IMO. Every time the defense make a good play to get an out, that's a potential run saved. On the other side of the coin, teams that make a lot of errors don't often get very far, even if they've got a lot of whack.

Yes, but how often did Izturis save a run with a play that another shortstop wouldn't make? A good number of them, true, but not nearly as many as people think. His defensive value (or anyone's really) is only the difference between him and whomever could replace him. From this standpoint, Furcal's hitting more than made up for having less range and a less accurate (though stronger) arm than Izturis. Whether Furcal's extra salary negates that advantage is an open question. My personal feeling is that signing Furcal to replace Izturis was a good baseball move, but Furcal's many injuries have made him too expensive. But since Izturis also had Tommy John surgery, I don't think he's the player he once was either.

You're right that defense is hard to quantify, but it's also something that people are regularly fooled by with anecdotal evidence. My observation tells me that Jeff Kent has decent hands and throwing arm, but he can't get to many ground balls anymore. But can I prove that? I don't know how I would. There are stats that have been developed for that ("range factor" for example), but they aren't as clear-cut as, say, slugging percentage.

Cora is around a .250 career hitter, which isn't great, but is hardly an embarrassment either. Ironically he's currently batting above his career average with Boston...

I doubt that's a function of Cora having improved as a hitter. Although I don't have any stats to prove it, I bet that the difference between Dodger Stadium (and the other NL West pitcher's parks) and Fenway Park with a DH more than makes up for it.

 

[zioxide]

Alex Cora was a great defensive second baseman when he was with the Dodgers. Cora-Izturis was probably one of the best middle infields I've ever seen, not that any of you guys would have noticed. Maybe he just got slow after he went to the Red Sox.

He used to be great. He's getting older now, so obviously he's not going to be as good as he used to. Getting slower is also part of getting older.

Cora is around a .250 career hitter, which isn't great, but is hardly an embarrassment either. Ironically he's currently batting above his career average with Boston, but Red Sox fans always seem to be moaning "what have you done for me in the last five minutes?" A team could do a lot worse for a utility infielder than Alex Cora. The Dodgers might want him back, if the Boston fans really hate him so much.

I like Alex Cora. Unfortunately, he doesn't make the team better. SS is the weakest position on the team and needs to be improved. The easiest way would be to DFA Cora, because Lugo's contract is too big to just flat-out release him. Once Cora is off the roster, you free up room for Jed Lowrie. He can come up and be the starting shortstop, and you can turn Lugo (who still has speed) in to a utility infielder/pinch runner. Yeah, he's an expensive pinch runner, but there's nothing else you can really do.

 

[IJ Reilly]

You're right that defense is hard to quantify, but it's also something that people are regularly fooled by with anecdotal evidence. My observation tells me that Jeff Kent has decent hands and throwing arm, but he can't get to many ground balls anymore. But can I prove that? I don't know how I would. There are stats that have been developed for that ("range factor" for example), but they aren't as clear-cut as, say, slugging percentage.

This is my point, which you take as evidence that defense is overrated and I take as evidence that defense is underrated. Neither of us can prove our point since the stats simply are not kept and as a result the tendency is to obsess over the offensive numbers, which are kept assiduously and discussed endlessly.

I like Alex Cora. Unfortunately, he doesn't make the team better. SS is the weakest position on the team and needs to be improved. .

You're not going to hear me defend Lugo. We suffered with him for a half a season. I didn't notice any standout skills and he was a malcontent besides.

 

[aloofman]

This is my point, which you take as evidence that defense is overrated and I take as evidence that defense is underrated. Neither of us can prove our point since the stats simply are not kept and as a result the tendency is to obsess over the offensive numbers, which are kept assiduously and discussed endlessly.

I didn't say it was overrated. There are plenty of situations where an all-field, no-hit player is worth having. (Especially at catcher, which includes defensive skills that effectively make pitchers better and has fewer good hitters from which to choose.) I said that such players are not inherently better than a player who fields and hits reasonably well. To put it another way, the difference between a great fielder vs. an average one usually doesn't save enough runs to make up for being a poor hitter vs. an average one.

Sometimes you can justify it, but not always. Ozzie Smith and Brooks Robinson were worth having even when they couldn't hit a lick. I would even argue that Ichiro is worth having just for his fielding. If we're talking all-time great defense, as in, maybe he gets to the HOF someday on that basis alone, then it's a no-brainer. But a lot of fielders aren't as good as their reputation would have us believe. And a lot of teams would be better off replacing their glove specialist with someone who can hit a little.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I didn't say it was overrated. There are plenty of situations where an all-field, no-hit player is worth having. (Especially at catcher, which includes defensive skills that effectively make pitchers better and has fewer good hitters from which to choose.) I said that such players are not inherently better than a player who fields and hits reasonably well. To put it another way, the difference between a great fielder vs. an average one usually doesn't save enough runs to make up for being a poor hitter vs. an average one.

Sometimes you can justify it, but not always. Ozzie Smith and Brooks Robinson were worth having even when they couldn't hit a lick. I would even argue that Ichiro is worth having just for his fielding. If we're talking all-time great defense, as in, maybe he gets to the HOF someday on that basis alone, then it's a no-brainer. But a lot of fielders aren't as good as their reputation would have us believe. And a lot of teams would be better off replacing their glove specialist with someone who can hit a little.

In effect, you are saying that defensive skills are overrated. That's how I read your argument, even after restatement, especially when you say, "a lot of fielders aren't as good as their reputation would have us believe." Maybe they're "better" than their reputations. How would we know one way or another? My argument that defensive skills tend to be underrated is based on the historical lack of interest in compiling defensive stats in baseball, and the lack of interest in interpreting the ones that are compiled. They certainly aren't poured over and analyzed like offensive numbers.

 

[zioxide]

Red Sox pitcher Justin Masterson will be sent to Triple A Pawtucket this week to become a reliever, Sox manager Terry Francona announced Monday.

Clay Buchholz will return from Pawtucket later this week to take Masterson's spot in the rotation, with his first starting coming Friday against the Orioles. PawSox outfielder Jeff Bailey will take Masterson's roster spot until Buchholz is needed.

“The thinking there is that we wanted to at some point get Clay back here and get him in the rotation, which I think we’ve been alluding to,” Francona said. “We also think getting Justin acclimated to the bullpen has a chance to really help our ballclub.”

Francona said Masterson is scheduled to get some relief innings Wednesday at Richmond, and Friday and Saturday at Norfolk.

Globe

Great move, because our bullpen has been complete **** so far this year. I still see them giving Masterson a chance next year to re-join the rotation, but right now this is the best move for the club.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Meanwhile in the rest of baseball, Hiroki Kuroda pitched an almost perfect game against Atlanta. Complete game, six strikeouts, no walks, one hit. Atlanta's only hit came in the eighth. I was there -- and yes, it was a pretty exciting night at the ballpark.

Dodgers now tied for first place in the NLW, but that's almost beside the point after watching such a pitching masterpiece.

 

[pachyderm]

CC Sabbathia(sp?) to Brewers.

is that Harden guy going anywhere?

 

[furcalchick]

Meanwhile in the rest of baseball, Hiroki Kuroda pitched an almost perfect game against Atlanta. Complete game, six strikeouts, no walks, one hit. Atlanta's only hit came in the eighth. I was there -- and yes, it was a pretty exciting night at the ballpark.

how fun...not. what a disaster. i was so scared that we would get perfect gamed again (btw, we were the last team to get perfect gamed by randy johnson). thank you mark teixeria (yes, i have bashed him) for helping us avoid complete embarrassment. we're a bad baseball team, and last night showed us just that.

 

[IJ Reilly]

how fun...not. what a disaster. i was so scared that we would get perfect gamed again (btw, we were the last team to get perfect gamed by randy johnson). thank you mark teixeria (yes, i have bashed him) for helping us avoid complete embarrassment. we're a bad baseball team, and last night showed us just that.

Aw, come on -- Kuroda pitched a beautiful game. Why not give him some credit? In fact the Braves fan sitting in front of me undid his "rally cap" when it looked like Kuroda might get the perfect game.

 

[furcalchick]

Aw, come on -- Kuroda pitched a beautiful game. Why not give him some credit? In fact the Braves fan sitting in front of me undid his "rally cap" when it looked like Kuroda might get the perfect game.

i like well pitched games, but i didn't want to be perfect gamed again. i will always want my team to avoid a perfect game or no hitter and i'll congratulate afterward.

 

[IJ Reilly]

i like well pitched games, but i didn't want to be perfect gamed again. i will always want my team to avoid a perfect game or no hitter and i'll congratulate afterward.

Nobody wants to see it happen to their team, but either way it's a major baseball event. The Braves have some good bats in the lineup, and one really great one, so it's not like they're pushovers. Kuroda was just completely on the money last night. I don't think anybody can beat a pitcher who's throwing that kind of stuff.

BTW, if he'd made it, Kuroda would have been the first Dodger to accomplish a perfect game since Koufax, who is the only Dodger with a perfect game (IIRC, he had two). I don't think most of the fans realized until the 8th that they were possibly looking at baseball history being made. Me, I started getting pretty jumpy in the 6th when he'd made less than 60 pitches and was still mowing them down.

 

[aloofman]

BTW, if he'd made it, Kuroda would have been the first Dodger to accomplish a perfect game since Koufax, who is the only Dodger with a perfect game (IIRC, he had two). I don't think most of the fans realized until the 8th that they were possibly looking at baseball history being made. Me, I started getting pretty jumpy in the 6th when he'd made less than 60 pitches and was still mowing them down.

Koufax had four no-hitters. Only the last one in 1965 was a perfecto. At the time it set the record for most no-nos in a career, since passed by Nolan Ryan, obviously.

AFAIK, no one at the major-league level has thrown more than one perfect game.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Thanks for the history. Kuroda was in rarified air last night for certain.

 

[zioxide]

Meanwhile in the rest of baseball, Hiroki Kuroda pitched an almost perfect game against Atlanta. Complete game, six strikeouts, no walks, one hit. Atlanta's only hit came in the eighth. I was there -- and yes, it was a pretty exciting night at the ballpark.

Dodgers now tied for first place in the NLW, but that's almost beside the point after watching such a pitching masterpiece.

Now next time he goes out he can throw another 2.1 inning 6 run gem.

He's on my fantasy team, and he's been great some weeks but he has had a couple of those types of games too. Hopefully he can become more consistent.


In other news, some retarded Rays columnist is bitching and moaning about the Rays manager not being part of the All Star coaching staff.

ST. PETERSBURG — Terry Francona blew it.

In charge of assigning seats in the American League dugout for the All-Star Game, the Red Sox manager left out the most obvious and deserving candidate at his position in all of baseball.
...
But when it comes to the coaching staff, Francona has no excuse. Maddon deserves a spot in the game, and Francona owes him an apology for not realizing it.

Seriously, which manager has had a better first half? Which manager has pushed more of the right buttons? No matter how it's measured, I defy anyone to find a more deserving candidate than Maddon.

Do you want to judge it in terms of success? Because the Rays have the best record in the majors.

Do you want to consider it in terms of improvement? Because the Rays are on pace for the greatest turnaround in major-league history.

article

I love how the Rays have had just three good months for the first time in the history of their franchise and their writers already think they're so ****ing great.

Maybe that writer should have done some research before writing that ****, because then he might have found out that the selections of Girardi and Leyland were made all the way back in January (even though they weren't announced until May), when the Rays still sucked ass.

 

[pachyderm]

Now next time he goes out he can throw another 2.1 inning 6 run gem.

He's on my fantasy team, and he's been great some weeks but he has had a couple of those types of games too. Hopefully he can become more consistent.


In other news, some retarded Rays columnist is bitching and moaning about the Rays manager not being part of the All Star coaching staff.



article

I love how the Rays have had just three good months for the first time in the history of their franchise and their writers already think they're so ****ing great.

Maybe that writer should have done some research before writing that ****, because then he might have found out that the selections of Girardi and Leyland were made all the way back in January (even though they weren't announced until May), when the Rays still sucked ass.

i so hate expansion baseball. all this means is that some great, great franchises(dodgers, giants, pirates) are gonna suck for awhile...

 

[IJ Reilly]

Now next time he goes out he can throw another 2.1 inning 6 run gem.

He's on my fantasy team, and he's been great some weeks but he has had a couple of those types of games too. Hopefully he can become more consistent.

Kuroda hasn't been very consistent, but then few pitchers are. He has pitched some great games, and obviously last night was outstanding. Based on his stats playing in Japan I expected him to be a respectable number four starter and not much more. Even with a couple of rough outings, I think he's exceeded those expectations, at least for now.

 

[aloofman]

Thanks for the history. Kuroda was in rarified air last night for certain.

Unfortunately I missed the game. Congrats on being there to see it.

I once witnessed Nomo taking a no-hitter into the sixth, but it being Nomo's second stint with LA, Tracy ignoring that he'd hit the wall, and it being the Padres, Nomo fell apart and we lost the game. That's as close to a historic game that I've attended.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Unfortunately I missed the game. Congrats on being there to see it.

I once witnessed Nomo taking a no-hitter into the sixth, but it being Nomo's second stint with LA, Tracy ignoring that he'd hit the wall, and it being the Padres, Nomo fell apart and we lost the game. That's as close to a historic game that I've attended.

Gracias. I was also at the four homers in the bottom of the ninth game two seasons ago. Who knows if I'll live long enough to see the Dodgers win another World Series, but that night was close enough, and may have to suffice.

 

[furcalchick]

i so hate expansion baseball. all this means is that some great, great franchises(dodgers, giants, pirates) are gonna suck for awhile...

dinosaurs used to roam the earth. they failed to adapt and they perished. same rule applies. if these great franchises want to be great and relevant today, they have to evolve and adapt to play to today's rules, not try to bring everyone back to the old days.

 

[aloofman]

I love how the Rays have had just three good months for the first time in the history of their franchise and their writers already think they're so ****ing great.

I think you should cut the Rays beat writer some slack. If you'd been covering the Rays the last ten years and finally had a team who'd done something worth writing about, you'd demand some respect too. Also, remember that the local writers are just catering to the Tampa market. A Tampa columnist doesn't care what fans of other teams thinks. In fact, it's better for him and the paper if they don't like it.

i so hate expansion baseball. all this means is that some great, great franchises(dodgers, giants, pirates) are gonna suck for awhile...

At least you didn't start with "Back in my day...."

I think that after a decade, they can't be labeled an expansion team anymore. The Mets, Marlins, and D'backs all won World Series in less time. Hell, almost every expansion team has had a winning season sooner than Tampa has.

Besides, if a team with little history is beating the older teams, maybe those teams aren't the great, great franchises that they used to be. How easy it is to forget that until very recently the Red Sox couldn't win the big one and "first-place Cubs" was a joke. It's not the newer teams' fault that they haven't been around as long.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Trivia time: Which expansion team had the best win-loss record in their first season?

 

[zioxide]

Cubs Acquire Rich Harden from A's

CHICAGO -- The Chicago Cubs have acquired pitcher Rich Harden from the Oakland Athletics in a six-player trade, a day after the rival Milwaukee Brewers landed CC Sabathia.

The Cubs will receive the right-handed Harden and righty Chad Gaudin for pitcher Sean Gallagher, outfielders Matt Murton and Eric Patterson, and minor leaguer John Donaldson.

Harden, scheduled to be a free agent after the 2009 season, is 5-1 with a 2.34 ERA in 13 starts this season.

The oft-injured righty missed a month earlier this season because of a right shoulder strain. It was his sixth trip to the disabled list in his six-year career.

ESPN