2009-10 Football Thread – The Second Half

[daneoni]

3 in 5 years

 

[Jaffa Cake]

But, what happens now? Must we simply accept that lower rated teams "play more aggressively" against us?
It has happened too much to us now.

I must confess, I haven't actually seen the challenge – I went to check on my tea and came back in to see Shawcross being red carded, and as you say replays haven't been shown due to the severity of the injury.

As you say, Shawcross was very, very distraught as he left the pitch – a reaction that suggests there was no attempt on his part to injure Ramsey. Nonetheless, if it's dangerous play it warrants a red card.

Football is a physical, contact sport and – while we never, never want to see this sort of thing happen – serious injuries are going to occur, and not simply because certain teams are targeting certain other teams. Indeed, players have picked up injuries playing against Arsenal themselves, and the Gunners aren't especially noted for possessing an overly physical or aggressive style of play.

In Ramsey's favour, it looks like he's suffered a similar injury that that Eduardo sustained – meaning that Arsenal's medical staff have experience in dealing with it. Hopefully he can recover as well as his team mate, and he can find encouragement in his example.

EDIT: A clip of the injury occurring has already appeared on YouTube, and I've also just seen a pic of the aftermath too which clearly shows the severity of the break. The challenge was certainly warranted the red card, but I certainly don't think there was any intent on Shawcross' part to injure Ramsey, he did look to be going for the ball albeit recklessly. The YouTube link is here if you're so inclined, here's a link to the still image of the aftermath – with the warning that it isn't pleasant to look at to say the least, showing as it does the severity of the break.

 

[MacsRgr8]

I understand the normal and usual risks which always play a part in sport, especially sports where physical contact is possible.
I have watched football all my life, and I have seen some horrific injuries on the pitch. Most occur without intent. Of course.

But, I am sure that team managers do tell players to be slightly more physical if they can't win it normally.
And I'm afraid that people like Tony Pulis give the Stoke-lads in the dressing room the advice to "not hold back" against players of the Arsenal, at least our youngsters. This probably won't happen against Campbell, but I fail to believe these 3 horrific tackles in 5 years where our player's career is feared are coincidence, and sheer bad luck.
No way.

 

[Nieval]

I understand that as a supporter you must be emotional at the moment and I myself, having sustained a similar injury once during a local game, am the last person who wants to see these misfortunes occur to anyone but having said that, I don't understand what you're getting at; are you saying that struggling (with all due respect to these teams), lower half teams teams should never go in hard on any Arsenal player ever? There's a reason why managers exploit this facet of Arsenal and you can't blame them, the reputation is there. I wonder why this never happens to the likes of Chelsea and Man Utd..

 

[MacsRgr8]

What I'm saying is that it happens to us more than other teams that these horrific injuries occur playing against lower rated sides.
Why?
Probably because managers like Tony Pulis think Arsenal's weakness is "physical", and therefore these teams play that bit more reckless against us than against Chelsea and Man Utd.
TBO, Drogba and Rooney are not players to try to be physical against... but our star players like Fabregas don't have that kind of physical presence.

So, some managers think that their only chance against Arsenal is to be strong in the tackles, whereas that tactic won't be used against Man Utd and Chelsea.

 

[Nieval]

Agreed but surely you can't be saying that its the other manager's fault Arsenal have this defect and you can't be blaming them for trying to exploit it.
As far as I'm concerned today's injury was an accident, but I do level so blame at Wenger for letting this reputation solidify.

 

[MacsRgr8]

If a manager tells his squad to be more physical, then one of these is true:
a) The players aren't physical enough normally, or
b) The players have to be more physical than normal.

I don't believe option a) is true here...
I do believe Tony Pulis wants his players to be even more physical than normal, resulting in a higher probability of (severe) injuries.
IMHO, therefore there is some intent here.... in the bigger picture, not the incident itself.... Tony Pulis has indirectly ruined Shawcross season too.

 

[capoeirista]

England squad for friendly announced....

link

Shawcross, despite what happened today is in (they talk about his reaction in the article). Didn't see the tackle, but it does seem that he really didn't mean it... Still get well soon Aaron Ramsey.

Other squad news. Ferdinand out, Baines and Milner in. Carlton Cole in. Other than that it's pretty much business as usual.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Stoke City are a physical side regardless of the opposition – although it would be churlish to suggest that that is the only facet of their game. I have no love of Pulis or his team but I doubt he instructs his players to 'take out' opponents by severely injuring them, and even if he did I'm equally doubtful that players would carry out such instructions.

As I say, players have picked up bad injuries against Arsenal themselves, and against the other 'better' teams of the division – indeed, we ourselves have had players out after they've sustained bad knocks against (off the top of my head) Arsenal and Aston Villa in the past year alone. Last season those injuries could have cost us dearly, this season they may still do so. However, I don't entertain the notion that the likes of Wenger or O'Neill sent their players out with instruction to purposely injure ours.

We've also lost a couple against West Ham, I don't think Zola has a sinister master scheme either.

 

[MacsRgr8]

I have no love of Pulis or his team but I doubt he instructs his players to 'take out' opponents by severely injuring them, and even if he did I'm equally doubtful that players would carry out such instructions..

No, no... I am not saying Pulis instructs his players to take someone out.
I'm only implying he sends them out to be more aggressive than usual, say harder than against Man Utd.
Therefore the risk is higher that something will happen.

Again, I don't believe any manager (except Dennis Wise, maybe...) would actually send a player out to injure someone on purpose!

 

[Nieval]

(except Dennis Wise, maybe...)

You reminded me of this one time when Dennis Wise was player-manger (can't remember which club) when he was sitting in the stands with the owner, decided to sub himself in, and with his first touch ended up fouling the opposition and getting a red card. Supposedly he was back in his seat in the stands so quickly the owner never even knew he left.

 

[MacsRgr8]

You reminded me of this one time when Dennis Wise was player-manger (can't remember which club) when he was sitting in the stands with the owner, decided to sub himself in, and with his first touch ended up fouling the opposition and getting a red card. Supposedly he was back in his seat in the stands so quickly the owner never even knew he left.

LOL!!
Must have been Millwall..?

 

[XIII]

I think the message from Arsene and Cesc, and from me, is that 3 very very nasty broken legs in 5 years is no coincidence. No, I don't think Shawcross meant to injure Ramsey at all. I haven't seen the challenge, but I presume as it broke his leg like that it was bad. It's a shame that the video cannot be reviewed, and the punishment increased if it warrants a bigger punishment. What I don't like is that teams play "more physical" against Arsenal, and it seems this horrible statistic we have is a consequence of that.

At the end of the day, Ramsey is probably the most promising young talent at Arsenal, and he has had a breakthrough season. I hope and pray he recovers well, and can rediscover the form and promise he has shown, but I have big worries about that. Eduardo has simply not been the same player since he has returned, the clinical score every chance Eduardo hasn't been here. I didn't watch the Eduardo incident live, but I did this one.. and I just felt sick, and so horrible. Watching the Arsenal players deal with it, especially Vermaelen and Fabregas made me feel awful, and at the end of the day we are talking about potentially ruining an incredibly talented 19 year olds career. I hope that's not the case.

 

[MacsRgr8]

I didn't watch the Eduardo incident live, but I did this one.. and I just felt sick, and so horrible. Watching the Arsenal players deal with it, especially Vermaelen and Fabregas made me feel awful, and at the end of the day we are talking about potentially ruining an incredibly talented 19 year olds career. I hope that's not the case.

Yep. Like I said earlier... tears did come to my eyes.
Shawcross' own reaction was so telling.
It was an accident, but also horrific. If you leave the field in that manner, you know you have done something horrible.... how unintentionally or accidentally.. but it still is your doing...

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Again, I don't believe any manager (except Dennis Wise, maybe...)

Whether that's the case or not, I think just on the off chance we should condemn him for it anyway.

My main point is though, it doesn't matter whether they play Arsenal, Manchester United or teams like us – Stoke City do have a physical approach to the game irrespective of their opposition, it's not just something they turn on against the 'better' teams such as Arsenal. We all have to adapt to it, and deal with it – yes it's frustrating to play against at times, but our teams all have to play against whatever style their opponent is likely to adopt in that fixture. For what it's worth, I think we struggle against more physical teams ourselves.

Arsenal do seem to be hit harder by such tactics so far as injuries go, but I think this is perhaps due to the fact that Manchester United and Chelsea have players who are themselves better suited to a more physical game than Arsenal, as a result opponents have less opportunity to dominate this aspect of the game. That's not downplaying what's happened to Ramsey and Eduardo, and I'm not saying that it's in any way acceptable for players to be stretchered off into waiting ambulances – just offering a thought on why Arsenal seem to rack up such injuries.

Eduardo has simply not been the same player since he has returned...

Indeed, and hopefully Ramsey will be more fortunate in this regard. Of course though, even if he were to make a complete physical recovery he may have trouble getting over such an injury mentally.

 

[swiftaw]

When it happened I didn't think that there was any intent there. He didn't go in two-footed or anything. Just a freak accident.

 

[MacsRgr8]

Arsenal do seem to be hit harder by such tactics so far as injuries go, but I think this is perhaps due to the fact that Manchester United and Chelsea have players who are themselves better suited to a more physical game than Arsenal, as a result opponents have less opportunity to dominate this aspect of the game. That's not downplaying what's happened to Ramsey and Eduardo, and I'm not saying that it's in any way acceptable for players to be stretchered off into waiting ambulances – just offering a thought on why Arsenal seem to rack up such injuries.

Like I said earlier, Man Utd and Chelsea's stars (Rooney, Drogba etc.) aren't the type of players you try to beat by being über-physical.
But, does that mean you are allowed to be more physical than usual to our stars, who are not that strong? Let's be honest.... football is a contact-sport, yeah.. but being very "physical" more often than not means more "fouling".

In some countries being more of a cheat, is a tactic. You know, dive into penalty areas, trying to get your opponent cautioned etc....
This is irritating, unsporting behaviour.... that works brilliantly... So well even that most Premiership teams have plenty of these type of players on the pitch... yep, and so do we.
All "professional" football teams around the globe have adopted this cheating, so not to loose too easily in international competitions.
But, cheating in this way is something officials have to sort out... without the fear of serious problems.
Serious problems... like ruining a career, by being physically über aggressive.

It's not that Arsenal always have issues regarding physical foul-play. It's just it seems that some of the teams can't win playing normal football. That's our frustration. Those teams who think they can win by being more aggressive.

 

[XIII]

My main point is though, it doesn't matter whether they play Arsenal, Manchester United or teams like us – Stoke City do have a physical approach to the game irrespective of their opposition, it's not just something they turn on against the 'better' teams such as Arsenal. We all have to adapt to it, and deal with it – yes it's frustrating to play against at times, but our teams all have to play against whatever style their opponent is likely to adopt in that fixture. For what it's worth, I think we struggle against more physical teams ourselves.

Arsenal do seem to be hit harder by such tactics so far as injuries go, but I think this is perhaps due to the fact that Manchester United and Chelsea have players who are themselves better suited to a more physical game than Arsenal, as a result opponents have less opportunity to dominate this aspect of the game. That's not downplaying what's happened to Ramsey and Eduardo, and I'm not saying that it's in any way acceptable for players to be stretchered off into waiting ambulances – just offering a thought on why Arsenal seem to rack up such injuries.

Yes, I understand this point. We do have to adapt to it, and to deal with it, and I think when you compare to the Arsenal of two seasons ago, maybe three seasons ago, we are much much better at that. We really fought today, which made me very proud.

United and Chelsea may have more physical players, but that doesn't decrease the likelihood of one of them being on the receiving end of a bad challenge does it? If the amount of bad challenges going in was the same to all the teams, then it would be fair to suggest that the amount of bad injuries would be spread around too - but I don't feel it is. I think part of the reason we rack up these injuries is because a team believes that if it goes in hard on Arsenal, we will crumble, and not be able to play our game. As a result of that belief, mainly thanks to the press, we may be on the receiving end of more 'hard' tackles from teams purely trying to bully us out of the game.

That's one part of it, and there are others.. I feel we have a rather injury prone collection of players (see van Persie) but that doesn't account for injuries such as these. I don't know really. The challenge wasn't malicious, but it was late, clumsy, rash and dangerous. At the end of the day I don't care if Shawcross leaves the pitch crying.. it's his ****** challenge which has left a fellow professional leaving the pitch in an ambulance - I'd rather be in his position.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I think part of the reason we rack up these injuries is because a team believes that if it goes in hard on Arsenal, we will crumble, and not be able to play our game. As a result of that belief, mainly thanks to the press, we may be on the receiving end of more 'hard' tackles from teams purely trying to bully us out of the game.

I think it is absolutely true that Arsenal doesn't cope well with big, physical teams. It think it's also true that the media and others seem to play this notion up to the extent that it probably encourages more reckless tacking against them than might otherwise be the case.

Most teams are not going to be able to hold on to the ball against Arsenal. The best way to defend is to interrupt their passing game, which you do by hustling them off the ball, forcing them to rush passes etc. I don't think teams should have to apologize for playing that way. That doesn't mean break their leg though!

I'm not sure what to say - there is a fine line between physical play and reckless/violent play. You can't just criticize a more physical team because someone might get hurt, because there's always some risk of injury.. I've seen even Arsenal players make reckless/dangerous challenges like everyone else - but you never want to encourage dangerous play.

The irony of this is that I saw several equally bad tackles in the Liverpool derby; it was pure luck that we didn't see an injury like Ramsey's during that game.

Bottom line: nobody ever wants to see an injury like this, it's horrible. And whatever punishment Arsene Wenger or anyone else thinks Shawcross deserves, I think the fact he sees what he's done must be punishment enough. I can't imagine he had any intention to hurt Ramsey like that.

Best wishes to Ramsey. I hope he can come back from this, we all love the game and nobody wants to see this sort of thing take place, even though we know injuries can happen.

 

[MacsRgr8]

Nothing will happen as usual.
Arsenal will have to suffer another major blow to the squad due to someone else's recklessness, and only time will tell if Ramsey will ever become the player he could have been.

Someone mentioned the Merseyside derby, about no horrific injuries happening there. Big difference is that in those games (what about this afternoon's Old Firm..?) you kind of expect harsher tackles and, subsequently, you are more aware of danger when you have the ball and can react defensively faster....?
I don't know, but it could be a possibility....

All in all.... we suffer again. And again. It's time for the right punishment: let the offender's club pay for the wages during the time the victim is recovering... or at least get huge compensation or something.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Big difference is that in those games (what about this afternoon's Old Firm..?) you kind of expect harsher tackles and, subsequently, you are more aware of danger when you have the ball and can react defensively faster....?
I don't know, but it could be a possibility....

I don't really hold with that - surely when playing Stoke, Bolton or whoever the players will also be expecting to be on the end of harsher tackles in those games, and react accordingly?

This isn't particularly relevant to Ramsey's injury (sustained as it was in a tackle), but Arsenal do seem to have a general problem with injuries, and certain players seem to keep getting crocked and picking up long term niggles, moreso than at most other clubs. I wonder if there's any thought at the club that there may be a reason behind this, something relating to diet or training methods, or maybe some flaw in the treatment their stricken stars are getting?

Can Wilshire be recalled from his loan at Bolton, does anyone know?

 

[Tombs]

Hi, new to this forum and only my second post (I was on here researching apples products but have spent the last hour reading this thread instead!). Being a Football player myself for the last 30 years, Ive seen my fair share of bad tackles, watching the game yesterday and seeing the highlights on MOTD I feel the tackle was just a really horrible accident, almost a freak accident. If you look at how Ramsey seemed to get is right foot under the ball and with the speed and impact Shawcross came in he seemed to go through the ball, a split second before that Ramsey seemed to push the ball a little to far ahead giving Shawcross the impression the ball was "loose". I do hope though that Ramsey recovers quickly (it's a minimum of 12 months according to various news sites) and manages to make comeback just as Eduardo did.

Talking about Arsenal as a team though, it does seem at times they are a little "light" physically compared to most of the teams in Premier league and have been for a few seasons. For me Aresnal had a good balance of players when you had players like Viera in the midfield, the team could allow a few young "nimble" players to "mix" in and that formula looked like it would pay off. All I see at Arsenal at the moment are to many young inexperienced physically smaller players who do seem to get "muscled" out in challenges. Having said that the club is still sitting at the top of the table with a chance!

 

[XIII]

Can Wilshire be recalled from his loan at Bolton, does anyone know?

I don't know. I don't think he would be though, we should have enough players to cover. For an Arsenal perspective on the whole incident and game, read this. It's well written and makes some of my points better than I could!

 

[Jaffa Cake]

For an Arsenal perspective on the whole incident and game, read this. It's well written and makes some of my points better than I could!

From there – in addition to what we're discussing here – this caught my eye...

And back to Sky for a moment. If anything sums up their hypocrisy it's the decision not to show replays of the tackle. Why not? They say it's because the images are too upsetting. Firstly, who the **** made them the arbiters of good taste? Why do they get to decide what is and isn't acceptable? People have buttons on their remote which say 'off' or 'channel up'. If they don't want to watch it, advise them and they can turn it off. As the broadcaster who has done most to big up the 'Arsenal don't like it up 'em' thing they have a responsibility to show what happened to Aaron Ramsey. To show what a tackle like that can do. To show that when you egg people on enough and they think it's ok to behave recklessly that there are consequences.

This I disagree with, and that's the main reason why I posted a link to the image earlier rather than putting it into my post. As others have said here, it's deeply unpleasant to see.

While some Arsenal fans may feel that broadcasters not reshowing the injury is due to some bias against their club or something, I'm sure many more would be condemning them if they reshowed it over and over in slow motion, from different angles et al, accusing them of sensationalising the incident and ghoulishly relishing the injury to an Arsenal player. It's one of those situations where they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, and while Sky can be criticised for many things (such as giving airtime to Andy Gray and Paul Merson's 'expert' opinions, for starters) I think this instance the criticism is misplaced.

One good point the blog does make regards Fabregas' reaction following the injury, and the clear contrast of the current captain's behaviour to that of then captain Gallas' reaction when Eduardo suffered his injury. I remember commenting at the time that I thought Gallas' sulking was unprofessional and did nothing to help the situation, Fabregas' response was the polar opposite and he deserves credit for it.

Oh, and hello Tombs.

 

[Fizzoid]

So, typical Owen. It looks like it's going to be his game, he scores a classic Owen goal, and gets a classic Owen injury
Commiserations to Villa, I was hoping they'd at least get it to penalties as they didn't look like they'd score. Still, they'll be partying all over Surrey tonight