2009-10 Football Thread

[pachyderm]

Seven national titles (six in England, one in Spain), two FA Cup winners medals and a Champions League winners medal – as well as being the most capped England outfield player of all time – suggest that 'loser' isn't exactly a word one generally associates with Beckham.

Hang on, I've just remembered who he's married to. Point taken.

lol. i love me becks i do. i'd not call him a loser. he is a bit of nut though, from time to time. but i still like to watch him play.

 

[takao]

that AC milan has to loan a 34 year old from a MLS club shows in what troubles they still are ... it sure looks like you have to be at least 30 years now to be considered for anything, except being an attacker, with milan

 

[Fizzoid]

that AC milan has to loan a 34 year old from a MLS club shows in what troubles they still are ...

Why? As a squad player, there'd be a whole host of teams that would want him. It's not as if they've paid millions to sign him

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I find it interesting that so few English players play abroad. Besides Becks I think only Jermain Pennant is playing outside the UK for a top-division side?

Milan are an aging side but Beckham is still a useful addition and they aren't shelling out tons of cash on him.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

I find it interesting that so few English players play abroad.

Most players – outfield ones at least – start thinking about hanging their boots up when they're in their 30s. If an Englishman moved abroad in his early twenties there's no way he'd be able to learn the language in that time.

It is interesting though why so few English players do go abroad, certainly the top ones tend not to – to be fair though, if you look at the Italian national side you'll see a similar pattern, the vast majority ply their trade in Serie A...

As for other players... Matt Derbyshire is currently playing in Greece for Olympiacos.

EDIT: Looking at the Spanish national side, a significant proportion of their players are based in Spain – although they do have a few more foreign-based players than England and Italy. So, the national teams representing the three countries with arguably the best leagues in the world tend to pick domestically-based players.

 

[Fizzoid]

I find it interesting that so few English players play abroad. Besides Becks I think only Jermain Pennant is playing outside the UK for a top-division side?

Well, the Premiership is arguably the best league in the world, so why go elsewhere? We may see the balance of power shift to La Liga though

 

[Lord Blackadder]

That is true, and I was going to mention the Italians actually, although they have a good number of players abroad - just not too many of their best.

 

[takao]

Why? As a squad player, there'd be a whole host of teams that would want him. It's not as if they've paid millions to sign him

well i suppose they will still pay millions with his salary ... and exactly that is my problem with this move .. why invest in another aging play making central midfielder... it's not like Milan has any shortage of that in their squad... seriously what can Beckham, do on the pitch what Seedorf and Pirlo can't ? and he sure doesn't have the defensive ability of Gattuso or Ambrosini

why no replacement for Oddo ? or a fast right midfielder... or a younger player ? .. sure they are saving money now but 2-3 years down the line they will have to replace the whole squad within 1-2 seasons


about players from england playing abroad: often the problem is that the transfer sums in england often are on the high side ... think about it that way: for the money Bayern Munich got from selling Owen Hargreaves to the island they bought Frank Ribery... and while Hargreaves is quite strong central defensive midfield ... Ribery is just phenomenal

 

[Fizzoid]

why invest in another aging play making central midfielder...

Because the ones they have can't last 90 mins

 

[smwatson]

To the Championship!

 

[gauchogolfer]

I'm still hoping the rumors about Thierry Henry considering an MLS move in a couple years are true...

Especially if it's to the Sounders, as was rumored originally.

 

[IntheNet]

Seven national titles (six in England, one in Spain), two FA Cup winners medals and a Champions League winners medal – as well as being the most capped England outfield player of all time – suggest that 'loser' isn't exactly a word one generally associates with Beckham.

Perhaps... yet with all those titles, awards, recognitions, and honors, one would assume "getting along with your teammates" was at least a small part. Guess not! Listen... don't misunderstand my rant here... I too was one of the lemmings that thought Beckham coming to MLS was the Third Coming... bought a Becks shirt, welcomed his arrival, and heralded The Galaxy as the foundation of the next American Premier League. I used the word "loser" cautiously yet deliberately based on the division he has brought with his baggage to the MLS when unity was anticipated. In retrospect, Galaxy, and the larger MLS, would have been better served hiring Keeper Coaches rather than adding David Beckham to its menu. He didn't really help...

I find it interesting that so few English players play abroad...

Interesting but not at all surprising. The Premier League is its own unique entity; it doesn't translate well abroad. Like English driving on the wrong side of the road: works well in the mother country but let's not try it anywhere else!

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Ah, good one Jaffa, I forgot about Derbyshire.

Well, the Premiership is arguably the best league in the world, so why go elsewhere? We may see the balance of power shift to La Liga though

La Liga may just have the prettiest football out there.

about players from england playing abroad: often the problem is that the transfer sums in england often are on the high side ... think about it that way: for the money Bayern Munich got from selling Owen Hargreaves to the island they bought Frank Ribery... and while Hargreaves is quite strong central defensive midfield ... Ribery is just phenomenal

That is a good point - if you look at the prices that English players command within the Premier league, they probably seem overpriced in Europe.

Especially if it's to the Sounders, as was rumored originally.

I've heard that New York is a possible destination. Seattle have Ljungberg, so I don't think they could afford another high-profile player, and the league will want to spread them out.

In retrospect, Galaxy, and the larger MLS, would have been better served hiring Keeper Coaches rather than adding David Beckham to its menu. He didn't really help...

I think he did - although whether he was worth the monetary cost may be debatable. he has helped grow the league a bit and if he is telling the truth about wanting to stay long-term it may prove a sound investment by the league.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

In fairness to Beckham, part of his role in the States was to increase awareness of the MLS overseas. I think he has helped to do that to some degree, certainly where the LA Galaxy are concerned.

A league can't be built on the back of one man though, and Beckham's move to the States is only a small part of the effort to develop the MLS.

 

[capoeirista]

English players abroad in top leagues abroad? Who could forget Darius Vassell playing for Ankaragücü (Turkey)? Or Colin Kazim-Richards playing for Fenerbahçe?

Or even, and this is scrapping the bottom of the barrel, Aaron Hunt playing for Werder Bremen? or Simone Perotta, World Cup winner with Italy who was born in Ashton-under-lyme

/statto

 

[Lord Blackadder]

that AC milan has to loan a 34 year old from a MLS club shows in what troubles they still are ...

I was thinking about this comment again and actually I think they got the wrong Galaxy player....Landon Donovan has pace, a great shot, stronger on the ball....Just ask George Best about Becks.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

I was thinking about this comment again and actually I think they got the wrong Galaxy player....Landon Donovan has pace, a great shot, stronger on the ball....

Donovan isn't as desperate as Beckham to prove his worth ahead of the World Cup though. Which is a shame, because we'd have had him.

On the cheap, of course.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

That's the problem with Donovan, I think the league wants $10 million for him.

He also has an ego too, I think he wants to play for a "big" club. He looked good on his loan spell at Bayern, but I reckon he'll finish out his career in the MLS. In a few seasons he'll be too old for a big move.

It's a shame, because if he DID move to say, Hull City, I think he'd make an impact and probably get other clubs interested. But he would not swallow his pride to go to a midtable club now.

 

[takao]

That's the problem with Donovan, I think the league wants $10 million for him.

He also has an ego too, I think he wants to play for a "big" club. He looked good on his loan spell at Bayern, but I reckon he'll finish out his career in the MLS. In a few seasons he'll be too old for a big move.

the reason why he was rejected at Bayern was that he was too old for a future prospect and not quite up to the level of the other attackers/midfielders to make it ... in fact the prevalent opinion at the time was: "he didn't make it at Leverkusen so why would he make it here ?" .... apart of Klinsmann he didn't have any support at all
and who would he be to replace at the time ? Ribery, Schweinsteiger, Ze Roberto, Klose, Toni ? there simply wasn't any chance of breaking into the 1st team...

not that it would have mattered since with this season bayern has gone bat s... insane and bought Mario Gomez, Arjien Robben, Olic, Tymostschuk and like 4 other players

edit: not to forget lokal Wonderkids Badstuber and Müller .. with the first being cool headed like he is 15 years older and the other being an animal on the offense.. expect both being in germany's national team before the world cup

 

[Lord Blackadder]

the reason why he was rejected at Bayern was that he was too old for a future prospect and not quite up to the level of the other attackers/midfielders to make it ... in fact the prevalent opinion at the time was: "he didn't make it at Leverkusen so why would he make it here ?" .... apart of Klinsmann he didn't have any support at all.

It's always going to be tough for Americans in Europe - nobody expects them to be any good and the US has yet to produce that World-Class player that will change people's minds. Add to that the fact that people back home don't care/know about European football and it really stacks the odds against American players making a big impact. Donovan could have been more of a success at Leverkusen but he wasn't committed enough at the time, and I think that was the big opportunity missed. He's a California boy and he didn't want to go live in Germany. And it's true that Bayern has a lot of top European players and that would make breaking into the first team a real struggle unless there were injuries to the starters.

Our big problems here are that a) the best talent goes to other sports and b)we don't have as good a system in place to develop our talent as is done in Europe. If we did, players like Jozy Altidore, Freddy Adu, Michael Bradley, Charlie Davies and Clint Dempsey would be more polished players. As it stands, they succeed because people appreciate their raw talent and are willing to try and develop it. But there is a lot of room for improvement. The growth of the MLS is key to helping develop young talent here so that when they go to Europe they are immediately competitive.

 

[MacsRgr8]

Cr@p..
Man Ure just made the equaliser....
3-3 from a wicked deflection.

Would have LMFAO if they had lost.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I think the only reason that Man United aren't being attacked by the press as a team in crisis is because Liverpool is doing so badly.

But United are weak at the back this season.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

we don't have as good a system in place to develop our talent as is done in Europe. If we did, players like Jozy Altidore, Freddy Adu, Michael Bradley, Charlie Davies and Clint Dempsey would be more polished players.

Funnily enough, I read some very similar comments from Jozy on the US system earlier today.

I suppose it's a situation that may improve as the MLS develops.

 

[takao]

It's always going to be tough for Americans in Europe - nobody expects them to be any good and the US has yet to produce that World-Class player that will change people's minds. Add to that the fact that people back home don't care/know about European football and it really stacks the odds against American players making a big impact. Donovan could have been more of a success at Leverkusen but he wasn't committed enough at the time, and I think that was the big opportunity missed. He's a California boy and he didn't want to go live in Germany. And it's true that Bayern has a lot of top European players and that would make breaking into the first team a real struggle unless there were injuries to the starters.

Our big problems here are that a) the best talent goes to other sports and b)we don't have as good a system in place to develop our talent as is done in Europe. If we did, players like Jozy Altidore, Freddy Adu, Michael Bradley, Charlie Davies and Clint Dempsey would be more polished players. As it stands, they succeed because people appreciate their raw talent and are willing to try and develop it. But there is a lot of room for improvement. The growth of the MLS is key to helping develop young talent here so that when they go to Europe they are immediately competitive.

as an austrian i sure can relate with the situation .. the problem is that up to a certain age (18-19) players are competitive with big soccer countries but after that the difference gets bigger simply for the fact that if a 20 year old plays in La Liga, Premier League, Bundesliga, Seria A simply is learning more per game than if he stays in the home league... so with 25-26 a player who never played in a foreign country very likely never will in his career

for US players to really have breakthroughs in the long term means very likely leaving the country earlier and trying to get in big club youth squads in europe wether in england, german or even the ehrendivision (Ajax) at least for those precious last years and try to jump into clubs from there
another idea might be trying not to try into a top 3/4 club but rather going for a middle of the league club and jump from there onto a better club later

and of course having to adjust to a league dominant playing style can also be quite difficult.. for a pacy,tricks trying player like donavan, the german league with it's slow build up, defensive midfield focused, hard in the fighting playing might have not been the best choice

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Funnily enough, I read some very similar comments from Jozy on the US system earlier today.

I suppose it's a situation that may improve as the MLS develops.

It's getting better. Back when Landon Donovan was first developing there was a lot less development going on here and soccer had a much lower profile. The kids that are going through the system now will be better prepared to compete at the highest level, and part of that is cdue to the growth of the MLS and increasing scouting in the USA by European clubs.

for US players to really have breakthroughs in the long term means very likely leaving the country earlier and trying to get in big club youth squads in europe wether in england, german or even the ehrendivision (Ajax) at least for those precious last years and try to jump into clubs from there

We have some youngsters doing that, but it also needs to start back here. If the MLS continues to grow in popularity, it will convince more kids to look to a career in football and if we can get a good start to development here in the USA more players will go to Europe with their development already begun.

Immigration will play a role in this - people who come to the US from Europe, Central/South America and Africa bring a passion for football and they make up significant numbers of the MLS fan base. Their kids will grow up watching soccer.

and of course having to adjust to a league dominant playing style can also be quite difficult.. for a pacy,tricks trying player like donavan, the german league with it's slow build up, defensive midfield focused, hard in the fighting playing might have not been the best choice

I think Donovan went to the Bundesliga because it was seen as being not quite as top-tier as the Premier League, la Liga or Serie A, and thus easier to be successful in. Butr in the long rung I don't think he was mentally committed to it, and now he is too old to move. But I agree that I think he'd be better suited to Spain or Italy. England demands a larger stature and Donovan is small, so I'm not sure if he would work there.

A counter example would be Clint Dempsey, a player who went to a mid-table club at Fulham and is having success. He gets a lot of playing time in a top league and trains to a very high standard. He might not be winning titles but he is still playing at a higher level then most of his teammates on our national squad.

Another good example would be Jay DeMerit. He played for his college, and then moved to the UK on his own, without any contract, and got a gig playing in the ninth division of the English league system. He was scouted for a few clubs and ended up at Watford, where he has captained the side.